1104 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Or I have set myself up for ultimate success.

Success requires hard work, planning, and smart choices.

Well, not according to everything you've said about choice.

[Ghar Thurion]

That would depend on my Shepards. Most of my Shepards would likely choose humanity over the asari. A few of them would choose Asari.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Because an extra 2 or 3 ships was guaranteed to turn the tide of the fight later on <_< 

It just might have for all you knew. That was a horrible risk to take and you're a horrible person for it.

The geth attacking from behind would've costed more than 2 or 3 ships, and the aid of the destiny ascension would also have been more significant than 2 or 3 ships.

[Barquiel]

SandTrout wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

So you're saying that the Alliance reinforcements alone were the only ones involved in killing Sovereign, because everyone else was still occupied with the Geth?

Yes.

pure speculation

[SandTrout]

Aaleel wrote...

If the Alliance "reinforcements" alone took down Sovereign I don't want to hear anything else about Paragon players being in some world with Rainbows and pink bunny rabbits where the game makes everything OK in the end.

I do not see how one negates the other.

A full fleet of Alliance ships providing sustained fire on a stationary Sovereign has a better chance of killing it in time than a partial fleet that lost several ships while saving a Dreadnaught that is already out of the fight.

The Geth and the Citadel Fleets were too tightly engaged for either to disengage in order to stop the Alliance Fleet or Sovereign.

I am not overly upset that the Paragon gamble worked on the Citadel, because long-shots and all-in bets do occasionally work. I do think that those that chose to save the Council were betting against the odds, though.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Or I have set myself up for ultimate success.

Success requires hard work, planning, and smart choices.

Exactly

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden: So what you're saying is... if Godzilla (easily a million times more powerful than some stupid robot cuttlefish cthulu wannabe) decided to romp and stomp his way toward the White House (let's say, to take a giant poop on it. That would be a fair equivalent to Sovereign fornicating with the Citadel Tower) - you would just say: "Oh well, the President is dead... let's move on from here."

I'm fairly sure that you might not be aware of the significance of military and civilian leadership in peace and wartime alike.

I'm also pretty sure most generals would shoot you for betraying your Commander and Chief.

====

Oh, but the Council is alien!!

Yes, I know... but they're also the leading body of an unmentioned number of species in "Citadel Space".

I would say that letting them die is also metagaming - because you know it isn't going to end in a "lose". And you know you won't be punished for it because - let's be fare - this is Bioware.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 août 2011 - 08:38 .

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

It makes sense to save the Accension because in doing it you take out the Geth fleet that is supporting Sovvy.

There are a few geth around the DA, the same geth who are battling the DA's defenders. The rest of the geth are spread around the nebula.

Destroying those geth does not gain you anything. You lose ships and gain no additional help.

It is a stupid move to make. Make up as many variables to defend your illogical, reckless choice as you want. The game made it clear what the tactical choice was and it was to abandon the DA.

No it did not, go back through the dialog. The only implication made is that it's a trade of human lives vs non-human lives. There is absolutely no implied strategic un-soundness.

It's a fabrication of the Renegade brigade who deem paragon decisions bad just for being classed Paragon.

[RAF1940]

Barquiel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

So you're saying that the Alliance reinforcements alone were the only ones involved in killing Sovereign, because everyone else was still occupied with the Geth?

Yes.

pure speculation

Not really, if you pay attention to the cutscene.

[breakdown71289]

I would say that letting them die is also metagaming - because you know it isn't going to end in a "lose". And you know you won't be punished for it because - let's be fare - this is Bioware.

I wouldn't be too sure about that though. Bioware did say there would be a couple of things that might come back to bite you in the ass later on.....lol.

Modifié par breakdown71289, 22 août 2011 - 08:43 .

[SandTrout]

Barquiel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

So you're saying that the Alliance reinforcements alone were the only ones involved in killing Sovereign, because everyone else was still occupied with the Geth?

Yes.

pure speculation

No.

Only Alliance ships were shown engaging Sovereign once the Ward arms opened. Due to the Citadel fleet not being able to engage Sovereign while the Ward Arms were closed, they were fully committed to engaging the Geth, which serves as both an explaination for why only Alliance vessels were shown attacking Sovereign and a very good reason to believe that it would only be Alliance vessels.

This allanlysis is based on experience with real-world Naval tactics and study of military history and doctrine. It is not 'pure speculation'.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

It also glosses over the fact that by ignoring the Geth you leave them able to shot you in the back when you wait for the arms to open up. The people attacking the paragon decision clearly have selective logic they see no logic in saving the DS just as they don't see it as illogical to leave an enemy fleet that was able to take down the single strongest ship in the galaxy so they can shot you in the back when they're done.

[Zkyire]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Saphra Deden: So what you're saying is... if Godzilla (easily a million times more powerful than some stupid robot cuttlefish cthulu wannabe) decided to romp and stomp his way toward the White House (let's say, to take a giant poop on it. That would be a fair equivalent to Sovereign fornicating with the Citadel Tower) - you would just say: "Oh well, the President is dead... let's move on from here."

I'm fairly sure that you might not be aware of the significance of military and civilian leadership in peace and wartime alike.

I'm also pretty sure most generals would shoot you for betraying your Commander and Chief.

Throw people's lives/tanks/aircraft at Godzilla, knowing full well they'd all be slaughtered just to save one politician?

Not only would I not help the President, I would shoot anyone who tried to force me or anyone else with me.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

No it did not, go back through the dialog. The only implication made is that it's a trade of human lives vs non-human lives. There is absolutely no implied strategic un-soundness.

Here, I'll quote it for you, dummy.

Wow Saphra again you show you're unable to have a debate without throwing out insults like a child.

[Barquiel]

RAF1940 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

So you're saying that the Alliance reinforcements alone were the only ones involved in killing Sovereign, because everyone else was still occupied with the Geth?

Yes.

pure speculation

Not really, if you pay attention to the cutscene.

Hackett said it took several fleets and the Destiny Ascension to bring Sovereign down (Arrival). The cutscenes don't show the whole battle. We don't see all alliance ships either.

Modifié par Barquiel, 22 août 2011 - 08:46 .

[SandTrout]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would say that letting them die is also metagaming - because you know it isn't going to end in a "lose". And you know you won't be punished for it because - let's be fare - this is Bioware.

How would allowing the Council to die inherently end the series in the same way that allowing the Reapers' fleet to arrive and take control of the Citadel would?

[Warlocomotf]

SandTrout wrote...

Sovereign is calling in the Reapers from dark-space, which woul almost certainly completely wipe out both the Citadel and Alliance fleets, so waiting to engage Sovereign(and preventing the Reapers' arrival) is not a reasonable option when you have no idea what kind of time-limit you're operating under in order to stop it.

There is absolutely no implied hurry in the matter, not anywhere in the dialog- not anywhere in the way characters walk, talk or act. Everything happens slowly and calmly. Also, you do not wait even a second after the Citadel arms open before entering under the Paragon option. The alliance fleet is large, the Geth fleet fairly minor at that point.

Not only have you made available all ships who were previously engaged with the Geth to now attack Sovereign, you've also removed the risk of being attacked from behind- while at the same time not actually losing a second in attacking Sovereign.

All aside from 1 of those things are things you could easily have been aware of at the time of making that decision.

Those Geth were still engaged with the remainder to the Citadel fleet and the DA's escort ships. The Geth ships were in a similar situation as the Citadel Fleet, and engaging that fleet, and keeping it off of Sovereign, was their purpose.

If that is the case, it sounds like a good idea to help them while waiting for the citadel doors to open.

[MaskedAffection]

No I wouldn't, but to to answer the question further...

If it was

Save Humanity OR Save All Other Galactic Races


I'd choose the later.

Modifié par MaskedAffection, 22 août 2011 - 08:50 .

[Clonedzero]

screw them ****ty asari.
humanity ftw

[SandTrout]

Hackett said it took several fleets and the Destiny Ascension to bring Sovereign down (Arrival). The cutscenes don't show the whole battle. We don't see all alliance ships either.

He his most likely including the fire that Sovereign took on its approach to the Citadel, where there were Turian cruisers, and likely other off-scree vessels, firing on it.

[Warlocomotf]

SandTrout wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

If the Alliance "reinforcements" alone took down Sovereign I don't want to hear anything else about Paragon players being in some world with Rainbows and pink bunny rabbits where the game makes everything OK in the end.

I do not see how one negates the other.

A full fleet of Alliance ships providing sustained fire on a stationary Sovereign has a better chance of killing it in time than a partial fleet that lost several ships while saving a Dreadnaught that is already out of the fight.

That's meta gaming, something you do not know at that point. All you do know is that it's shields had been softened up and that the main drives were offline. (The fact that "main" is specified means that other drives are still operational).

I am not overly upset that the Paragon gamble worked on the Citadel, because long-shots and all-in bets do occasionally work. I do think that those that chose to save the Council were betting against the odds, though.

That's a somewhat reasonable stance. But it's only a reasonable stance so long as you acknowledge that you do not have an in depth analysis of the probability of all of these micro-sub-events that could go right / wrong-- and that your estimate of the chances could be incorrect.

[breakdown71289]

MaskedAffection wrote...

No I wouldn't, but to to answer the question further...

If it was

Save Humanity OR Save All Other Galactic Races


I'd choose the later.

I'd choose the latter as well.....but when it comes to just humanity and the asari, i'd feel guilty not to save my own kind. Then again, depending on the situation at hand, i might just have to choose the asari if it would essentially be the "right" decision to make.

[Medhia Nox]

@IEatWhatIPoo: Then you would make an excellent coward - to be sure, coward's do survive though - look at the rat.

Anything for survival - then I suppose you get to re-write the story you tell the people afterward about how you are the hero. It suits for some - and that's fine.

----

I also don't blame others who fell for Sovereign's hype - "I am awesome, I am not just a space cuttlefish of doom... I am THEE Space Cuttlefish of DOOM!"

Sorry - Sovvy... if you were as powerful as you claimed, you wouldn't need a Geth army - and Matriarch Benezia - and a Krogan army - and husks... etc. etc.