1104 réponses à ce sujet

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The only situation where I'd pick one specie over humanity is if the other specie has a better chance of helping me defeat the Reapers. If humanity is so weak that they can no longer be viable in defeating the Reapers but the Asari/Turian/Salarians are still strong enough to help defeat the Reapers than I'd have to choose the other specie because if you don't defeat the Reapers than everyone dies no matter what.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

The geth attacking from behind would've costed more than 2 or 3 ships, and the aid of the destiny ascension would also have been more significant than 2 or 3 ships.

Where are these geth coming from and what aid is the Destiny Ascension providing? It isn't going to provide any aid at all. It is not there to participate in the battle. It was fleeing, remember?

Killing a few geth around the DA accomplishes nothing because you lose ships in the process, gain no allies, and there are still legions more geth throughoug the nebula. Those few geth attacking the DA were not the only geth in the battle.

Saving the DA does not benefit you in any way when it comes to defeating the Sovereign. It weakens you.

It was evacutating the Council after Saren overwrote citadel controls. This was before Sovereign or the Geth was seen if I recall correctly. Whether or not saving the DA does or does not help you is something you are unaware of at this point in time- none of the Dialog tells you it is out of commision, and even if it were previously evacuating it could be called upon to join the fight,- presuming to know the answer is meta gaming.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

No it did not, go back through the dialog. The only implication made is that it's a trade of human lives vs non-human lives. There is absolutely no implied strategic un-soundness.

Here, I'll quote it for you, dummy.


"That's right. That's why you can't afford to waste your reinforcements saving the Council. You must hold the human fleet back until they can get a shot at Sovereign."

The implications are obvious.

 

Again, here's what's implied directly:
1] It will cost human lives.
2] The human military will weaken
It does not imply that this would result in no additional non-human forces joining the fight- it may imply that whoever makes that statement deems the cost to the human fleet more significant than the gain of freed up forces. That however- is a judgement call at that point. Not something the crew member could know for a fact.

Modifié par Warlocomotf, 22 août 2011 - 09:03 .

[Aaleel]

SandTrout wrote...

Hackett said it took several fleets and the Destiny Ascension to bring Sovereign down (Arrival). The cutscenes don't show the whole battle. We don't see all alliance ships either.

He his most likely including the fire that Sovereign took on its approach to the Citadel, where there were Turian cruisers, and likely other off-scree vessels, firing on it.

The alliance lost Eight, eight ships total, that's counting any ships lost helping the DA.  I saw more ships than that destroyed just in the cutscenes, not even counting all the wreakage the Normandy was flying through.  I find it far fetched to believe only Alliance ships were involved in the final fight.

Modifié par Aaleel, 22 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[breakdown71289]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The only situation where I'd pick one specie over humanity is if the other specie has a better chance of helping me defeat the Reapers. If humanity is so weak that they can no longer be viable in defeating the Reapers but the Asari/Turian/Salarians are still strong enough to help defeat the Reapers than I'd have to choose the other specie because if you don't defeat the Reapers than everyone dies no matter what.

Exactly.....your hand would essentially be forced to choose an alien species out of sheer necessity in a situation as big as galactic extermination. Still, just the thought that humans would be an extinct race because of it would be haunting regardless.

Modifié par breakdown71289, 22 août 2011 - 09:18 .

[Zkyire]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@IEatWhatIPoo: Then you would make an excellent coward - to be sure, coward's do survive though - look at the rat.

Anything for survival - then I suppose you get to re-write the story you tell the people afterward about how you are the hero. It suits for some - and that's fine.

----

I also don't blame others who fell for Sovereign's hype - "I am awesome, I am not just a space cuttlefish of doom... I am THEE Space Cuttlefish of DOOM!"

Sorry - Sovvy... if you were as powerful as you claimed, you wouldn't need a Geth army - and Matriarch Benezia - and a Krogan army - and husks... etc. etc.

Throwing the lives of thousands/millions of people at a practically invincible foe that WILL slaughter every one of you in seconds with practically no hope of victory is not bravery that is stupidity.

[Warlocomotf]

SandTrout wrote...

Hackett said it took several fleets and the Destiny Ascension to bring Sovereign down (Arrival). The cutscenes don't show the whole battle. We don't see all alliance ships either.

He his most likely including the fire that Sovereign took on its approach to the Citadel, where there were Turian cruisers, and likely other off-scree vessels, firing on it.

It's a citation:

It took multiple fleets, and the destiny ascension -- to bring Sovereign down

Clearly, Sovereign was involved in taking it down. Also, I'd like to point out that...

The Destiny Ascension is an asari dreadnought and flagship of the Citadel Fleet. It is a starship of stunning power; according to a volus visitor, it has almost as much firepower as the rest of the asari fleet combined.

That's a terrible resource to let go to waste.

[Zkyire]

Warlocomotf wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Hackett said it took several fleets and the Destiny Ascension to bring Sovereign down (Arrival). The cutscenes don't show the whole battle. We don't see all alliance ships either.

He his most likely including the fire that Sovereign took on its approach to the Citadel, where there were Turian cruisers, and likely other off-scree vessels, firing on it.

It's a citation:

It took multiple fleets, and the destiny ascension -- to bring Sovereign down

Clearly, Sovereign was involved in taking it down. Also, I'd like to point out that...

The Destiny Ascension is an asari dreadnought and flagship of the Citadel Fleet. It is a starship of stunning power; *****according to a volus visitor*****, it has almost as much firepower as the rest of the asari fleet combined.

That's a terrible resource to let go to waste.

A Volus visitor taking a tour of an Asari ship isnt exactly a reliable source for military information

[Warlocomotf]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
A Volus visitor taking a tour of an Asari ship isnt exactly a reliable source for military information 

Maybe it's not a reasonable source in terms of the precise firepower of the ship- it should however be a good enough source to determine that it will easily outweigh a handful of alliance ships.

[ridout]

depends how ****ed the situation is

i mean if theres the option to let earth be destroyed and then lead an better attack with greater numbers then ill go for it but if theres a double jepordy situation humans win everytime for me. besides asari are all over the galaxy, most humans (i believe???) are on earth so it would be a bigger blow

[Zkyire]

Warlocomotf wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
A Volus visitor taking a tour of an Asari ship isnt exactly a reliable source for military information 

Maybe it's not a reasonable source in terms of the precise firepower of the ship- it should however be a good enough source to determine that it will easily outweigh a handful of alliance ships.

Thing is, the dialogue in ME made a lot of ridiculous statements.

Sovereign supposedly able to move really fast, but in the actual fight it's very slow.

The DA able to one-hit kill ships and then getting its ass handed to it.

The DA being what, twice the size of any Alliance Vessel? Drednaughts are supposed to be 800m to 1000m. Meaning the Alliance Dreds would have to be 400m to 500m for that statement to be true. Which means they'd be like Cruisers not Drednaughts.

The Geth having weapons capable of penetrating Alliance armour and shields as if they didn't exist and kill instantly, but then shows Shepard fighting plenty/getting it.

The Geth ships also possessing superior tech yet being one-hit-killed by the Alliance Cruisers during the attack on the Citadel.

[Warlocomotf]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
A Volus visitor taking a tour of an Asari ship isnt exactly a reliable source for military information 

Maybe it's not a reasonable source in terms of the precise firepower of the ship- it should however be a good enough source to determine that it will easily outweigh a handful of alliance ships.

Thing is, the dialogue in ME made a lot of ridiculous statements.

Sovereign supposedly able to move really fast, but in the actual fight it's very slow.

The DA able to one-hit kill ships and then getting its ass handed to it.

The DA being what, twice the size of any Alliance Vessel? Drednaughts are supposed to be 800m to 1000m. Meaning the Alliance Dreds would have to be 400m to 500m for that statement to be true. Which means they'd be like Cruisers not Drednaughts.

The Geth having weapons capable of penetrating Alliance armour and shields as if they didn't exist and kill instantly, but then shows Shepard fighting plenty/getting it.

The Geth ships also possessing superior tech yet being one-hit-killed by the Alliance Cruisers during the attack on the Citadel.

I think it's fair to say that the Destiny Ascension falls well beyond the conventional 800-1000m.

The Ascension is four times the size of the largest human ship, and boasts a crew of nearly 10,000. It is considered to be the most formidable warship in the galaxy, with heavy kinetic barriers and powerful weaponry. The Ascension is most likely the Citadel Fleet's largest ship, as no other Fleet vessels are seen that match it in size.

The Ascension can be seen passing the windows on the Wards while people gather around to watch. A nearby volus can be heard talking excitedly about his recent tour of the Ascension: though he was aboard for six hours, he only saw 10% of the ship, for the vessel was simply far too large to tour completely.

However... 

When the geth fleet, led by Sovereign, attacks the Citadel, the Council is evacuated to the Destiny Ascension as per standard emergency procedures. Since the dreadnought is not designed for close combat, it fails to escape and becomes heavily damaged.

Modifié par Warlocomotf, 22 août 2011 - 09:44 .

[Medhia Nox]

@IEatWhatIPoo: I agree - and what you described is Godzilla... NOT Sovereign.

Gamers have invented a different Sovereign than what was presented in the game - probably because they have been programmed to fight all-powerful evils. Sovereign isn't an all powerful evil... he isn't even mega-powerful evil on the level of someone like, let's say, Dracula (micro and macrocosms respectively) - no, he's "an evil space cuttlefish".

If people want to run around claiming that what they were shown was an unstoppable cuttlefish that nearly destroyed half the galaxy - by itself - on its trip to the Citadel. Then, that's fine - but it's not what happened in my game.

In my game - Sovereign was "shown" destroying between 5 - 6 ships. The Geth fleet that was traveling with him were shown to destroy MANY more.

In my game - Sovereign was "shown" to do little more than fornicate with the Citadel Tower. While the Geth fleet engages the Alliance initially.

In my game - Sovereign dies on his back - "squirming" like a **** - while a stealth vessel (the Normandy) not a combat vessel - blows it up.

-----

The Geth needed to be engaged - the Geth were making a target out of the Destiny Ascension.

The enemies goals must be stopped - even if you're not sure what those goals are (metagaming - we know it is to disrupt the galactic government).

IF you want to run away from stopping the enemies goals - that is fine.

IF you want to say that you chose one goal (fighting Sovereign) over another goal (stopping the Geth from achieving their goal) - that is also fine.

But - if you say that stopping the Geth from achieving one of their goals is "stupid" "bad tactics" "Paragon goodiness I can't stand because I'm an edgy emo Renegade." - then, we have nothing to talk about really.

[SandTrout]

Warlocomotf wrote...

That's meta gaming, something you do not know at that point. All you do know is that it's shields had been softened up and that the main drives were offline. (The fact that "main" is specified means that other drives are still operational).

Incorrect in regards to the Metagaming. I made that decision for those stated reasons the first time through with no outside knowledge of events. Regardless of ability, the DA is evacuating the Council, which means that is is out of the fight, even if it has full shields and functioning drives. They are getting the hell out of Dodge regardless.

I am not overly upset that the Paragon gamble worked on the Citadel, because long-shots and all-in bets do occasionally work. I do think that those that chose to save the Council were betting against the odds, though.

That's a somewhat reasonable stance. But it's only a reasonable stance so long as you acknowledge that you do not have an in depth analysis of the probability of all of these micro-sub-events that could go right / wrong-- and that your estimate of the chances could be incorrect.

I acknowledge that I am working on severely limited data, and that my estimates may be flawed due to that. If I knew going in Sovereign's relative shield strength and how long it needed to be connected to the Citadel in order to override Vigil's program, then I would probably save the Council because I had adequate margins to work within.

However, not having that data, I still consider using uncommited resources to save a ship that cannot/will not contribute to the fight (according to my interpretation of events), an unwise risk.

[SandTrout]

Aaleel wrote...

The alliance lost Eight, eight ships total, that's counting any ships lost helping the DA.  I saw more ships than that destroyed just in the cutscenes, not even counting all the wreakage the Normandy was flying through.  I find it far fetched to believe only Alliance ships were involved in the final fight.

I'm pretty sure that you didn't see that many ships destroyed in the cutscenes. Another forumite posted a count of Alliance ships lost in the BotC, which came out to 5-6, I believe, with another couple lost if you save the DA.

[Aaleel]

SandTrout wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The alliance lost Eight, eight ships total, that's counting any ships lost helping the DA.  I saw more ships than that destroyed just in the cutscenes, not even counting all the wreakage the Normandy was flying through.  I find it far fetched to believe only Alliance ships were involved in the final fight.

I'm pretty sure that you didn't see that many ships destroyed in the cutscenes. Another forumite posted a count of Alliance ships lost in the BotC, which came out to 5-6, I believe, with another couple lost if you save the DA.

I just got done making a fan vid about sacrifice lol, trust me.  You lose at least 6 just saving the DA alone.  Also at the end of the saving the DA cutscene, all Geth ships seem to be in flames, there is no longer a battle raging.

Edit: But the whole scene is just ridiculous lol.  The DA with a crew of 10,000 I thought it had 10,000 passengers, but that's just the crew.  That ship was humongous, I doubt that situation would have even arised unless Soveriegn was attacking it directly.  That ship and the citadel fleet should have easily punched a hole through the geth ships.

Modifié par Aaleel, 22 août 2011 - 11:10 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I just...don't see anything worthwhile with the Asari.

I mean I know that makes me biased but personal preference and all that.

[SandTrout]

@Aaleel,

Reviewing video of the BotC I counted 4 Alliance vessels lost saving the DA, and another 4 lost directly from Sovereign.

Edit: Point of note is that during the Save the DA scene, 1 ship could be potentially counted twice because it is shown blowing up in one shot and its flaming wreckage is shown in the next shot.

Modifié par SandTrout, 22 août 2011 - 11:11 .

[Asari_Party]

RAF1940 wrote...

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

sorry Liara my Shepard loves you but...the asari are dying.

same

But can you resist Liara's puppy dog eyes if she asks you to save her homeworld? I doubt it

[Aaleel]

SandTrout wrote...

@Aaleel,

Reviewing video of the BotC I counted 4 Alliance vessels lost saving the DA, and another 4 lost directly from Sovereign.

It's 6 I just watched it.  One to either side of the Normandy in the first part.  Then one just comes flying into the screen and blows up in your face.  Then 3 more around the Normandy while it's flying in the middle of the screen.  Watch the Sacrifice video in my sig, you'll see all three of the scenes I'm talking about in order.

Modifié par Aaleel, 22 août 2011 - 11:14 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Roxy12 wrote...

But can you resist Liara's puppy dog eyes if she asks you to save her homeworld?

Absolutely.

[Unpleasant Implications]

Screw humanity, i'm saving the blue hotties..

[Vyse_Fina]

Unpleasant Implications wrote...

Screw humanity, i'm saving the blue hotties..

Probably the most honest statement in the entire topic.
Also: This isn't closed yet??? Where is Mr. Woo? Or Chris? Or Javier? Or anyone??? They can't have all gone to GC O.o

[SandTrout]

The one flying back and exploding in your face was one of the first 2 that you described, one of which I actually did miss. Still, all ships shown on-screen attacking Sovereign after the Ward Arms open are distinctly Alliance designs. The number of total Alliance ships destroyed on screen still sits at 9 by my count.

However, reviewing the audio that you mentioned, Shepard mentions 8 cruisers that were lost, with no mention of frigates or fighters, which also throws an unknown in the total number of Alliance ships destroyed during the battle.

Good videos by the way.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I love how people think Thessia is the end-all be-all of the asari...