1104 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

While I agree that in a straight up "who would you rather save" scenario, you would obviously go with your own species since it's the only factor that can tip the scales, I can't agree that one sapient species is intrinsically more valuable than another. Does that make me intellectually inferior?

No. My points has been consistently that I am not apply intrinsically greater value to any of the species, but my own species is valuable to me, specifically.

This issue I have is with people placing greater intrinsic value on species other than their own. As you stated, in a straight up "who would you rather save" scenario, the obvious choice is your own species. The problem is that with some people, they choose the other species out of either some misguided sense of altruism or devaluation of their own species.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

While I agree that in a straight up "who would you rather save" scenario, you would obviously go with your own species since it's the only factor that can tip the scales, I can't agree that one sapient species is intrinsically more valuable than another. Does that make me intellectually inferior?

No. My points has been consistently that I am not apply intrinsically greater value to any of the species, but my own species is valuable to me, specifically.

This issue I have is with people placing greater intrinsic value on species other than their own. As you stated, in a straight up "who would you rather save" scenario, the obvious choice is your own species. The problem is that with some people, they choose the other species out of either some misguided sense of altruism or devaluation of their own species.

Oh, I just thought people were calling humans mary-sues and they didn't contribute to the community.


Oh wait...

[Biotic Sage]

SandTrout wrote...

No. My points has been consistently that I am not apply intrinsically greater value to any of the species, but my own species is valuable to me, specifically.

This issue I have is with people placing greater intrinsic value on species other than their own. As you stated, in a straight up "who would you rather save" scenario, the obvious choice is your own species. The problem is that with some people, they choose the other species out of either some misguided sense of altruism or devaluation of their own species.

Ah, I see.  Then I misunderstood the argument.  I've popped in and out of this thread over the last couple days and at one point some people were saying that they would sacrifice the entire asari race if it would even save only 10 humans.

We are on the same page, my bad.

[SandTrout]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Ah, I see.  Then I misunderstood the argument.  I've popped in and out of this thread over the last couple days and at one point some people were saying that they would sacrifice the entire asari race if it would even save only 10 humans.

We are on the same page, my bad.

Well, there are some genocidal maniacs out there on the forums, but most of them are trolls. The sincere ones are at least are rare as the sincere anti-humans.

[Seboist]

SandTrout wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Ah, I see.  Then I misunderstood the argument.  I've popped in and out of this thread over the last couple days and at one point some people were saying that they would sacrifice the entire asari race if it would even save only 10 humans.

We are on the same page, my bad.

Well, there are some genocidal maniacs out there on the forums, but most of them are trolls. The sincere ones are at least are rare as the sincere anti-humans.

What's funny is that some of the ones that advocate genocide hate Cerberus for being "anti-alien".

[Biotic Sage]

SandTrout wrote...

Well, there are some genocidal maniacs out there on the forums, but most of them are trolls. The sincere ones are at least are rare as the sincere anti-humans.

The law of the world does seem to state that if an opinion can exist, it will exist, no matter how illogical. 

Paradoxically, this could be used to actually strengthen the anti-humans' argument.

[SandTrout]

Biotic Sage wrote...

The law of the world does seem to state that if an opinion can exist, it will exist, no matter how illogical. 

Paradoxically, this could be used to actually strengthen the anti-humans' argument.

Similar to how the anti-humans drive some of us pro-human paragons toward the red.

[Seboist]

SandTrout wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

The law of the world does seem to state that if an opinion can exist, it will exist, no matter how illogical. 

Paradoxically, this could be used to actually strengthen the anti-humans' argument.

Similar to how the anti-humans drive some of us pro-human paragons toward the red.

Embrace the dark side! Just like with Golden Owl there's a renegade in you wanting to come out!

[LordJeyl]

Wha? Save humans instead of the Asari? Why, that sounds like every science fiction action story ever made. I'm sure Mass Effect can benefit from one of it's unique alien races being totally gone while the non-unique race of humans continue to thrive throughout the universe.

[Biotic Sage]

SandTrout wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

The law of the world does seem to state that if an opinion can exist, it will exist, no matter how illogical. 
Paradoxically, this could be used to actually strengthen the anti-humans' argument.

Similar to how the anti-humans drive some of us pro-human paragons toward the red.

Do you think that's the rationalization TIM tells himself before he goes to sleep at night?

Speaking of that guy, he is less than forthcoming with me and I don't appreciate it.  My Shepard believes in open communication and establishing trust.

[SandTrout]

Seboist wrote...

Embrace the dark side! Just like with Golden Owl there's a renegade in you wanting to come out!

For what its worth, I'm expecting my Paragon cannon to end up with a full renegade bar by the end of ME3, but without any changes to the fundamental character. Cooperation is great for long-term goals, but first, he needs to ensure that the long-term will be there for those goals.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

True Sith know that victory at any cost is unacceptable.

[SandTrout]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Do you think that's the rationalization TIM tells himself before he goes to sleep at night?

Speaking of that guy, he is less than forthcoming with me and I don't appreciate it.  My Shepard believes in open communication and establishing trust.

Same here. He has his uses, but I would rather have Cerberus on a short leash.

[SandTrout]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

True Sith know that victory at any cost is unacceptable.

True leaders know that 'unacceptable' is relative.

[Hibernating]

Im quite fond of aspects of humanity, but I think overall we are a rather useless race that places far too much value on our inflated sense of value.
If the Asari were real would I choose their race over ours? instantly. What we see of humanity in the ME universe shows we havent changed alot, we would offer nothing the other races did not have to offer the universe. We are less intelligent than the salarians, less aggressive than the krogan and we are less compassionate or artistic than the Asari. Turians have an honor code that puts ours to shame.
The council races exist in reasonable co-operation for hundreds of years without conflict with each other, humanity rocks up and instantly tries to lead races older and wiser than us.

[Biotic Sage]

Hibernating wrote...

Im quite fond of aspects of humanity, but I think overall we are a rather useless race that places far too much value on our inflated sense of value.
If the Asari were real would I choose their race over ours? instantly. What we see of humanity in the ME universe shows we havent changed alot, we would offer nothing the other races did not have to offer the universe. We are less intelligent than the salarians, less aggressive than the krogan and we are less compassionate or artistic than the Asari. Turians have an honor code that puts ours to shame.
The council races exist in reasonable co-operation for hundreds of years without conflict with each other, humanity rocks up and instantly tries to lead races older and wiser than us.

The fact that you believe you are capable of making a value assessment on a situation (and you are!), are able to recognize that humanity isn't perfect, and are yourself human is more than enough of a counterargument to your own argument.  Self defeat!

[SandTrout]

Hibernating wrote...

Im quite fond of aspects of humanity, but I think overall we are a rather useless race that places far too much value on our inflated sense of value.
If the Asari were real would I choose their race over ours? instantly. What we see of humanity in the ME universe shows we havent changed alot, we would offer nothing the other races did not have to offer the universe. We are less intelligent than the salarians, less aggressive than the krogan and we are less compassionate or artistic than the Asari. Turians have an honor code that puts ours to shame.
The council races exist in reasonable co-operation for hundreds of years without conflict with each other, humanity rocks up and instantly tries to lead races older and wiser than us.

My case and point about anti-humans placing greater intrinsic value on any species other than out own.

Humans are more aggresive than Salarians, more flexible than Turians, more driven than Asari, and more reasonable than Krogan. Apparently we're more creative than any of them, based on descriptions and other hints throughout the games. Apparently the combination of these human traits has allowed us to rise in power faster than most other species. You would condemn your own species for its virtue.

You, sir, are suffering Cultural Cringe.

[easyt3hremember]

Nope. Humans FTW!

[marstor05]

let em burn...

[Biotic Sage]

Hibernating, do you feel those flames? Do you feel the overwhelming heat from them? Tag team, mother f*ckr! Go back into hibernation!

Haha but honestly I'm sure you are just coming from the place of trying to look out for the universe, and for that you are excused. Just remember that you are not the only human who wants to do good, and it may restore your faith in our race.

[Barquiel]

SandTrout wrote...

Humans are more aggresive than Salarians, more flexible than Turians, more driven than Asari, and more reasonable than Krogan. Apparently we're more creative than any of them, based on descriptions and other hints throughout the games. Apparently the combination of these human traits has allowed us to rise in power faster than most other species. You would condemn your own species for its virtue.

That makes humanity the Mary Sue race of Mass Effect...one of the main reasons why saving earth has low priority for me.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

So because humans are awesome...we should all die...


Even though in reality the asari are the mary-sue of the universe.

well the galaxy any who...

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 24 août 2011 - 10:21 .

[marstor05]

some will be sacrificed if all are to be 'saved'.

[Barquiel]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
So because humans are awesome...we should all die...

Yes...because it's not believable

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Even though in reality the asari are the mary-sue of the universe.

Did you visit Illium?

Modifié par Barquiel, 24 août 2011 - 10:21 .

[marstor05]

some must be sacrificed if all are to be 'saved'.