148 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I think one of the worst ideas for an RPG is to have a line of dialogue listed that never actually has the character saying what's actually written. It's the source for many complaints by fans who feel that Hawke isn't "their" character, since part of the problem is that he's saying lines that the player never intended for him (or her) to say. Am I the only one who feels the paraphrasing needs to be done away with?

[Blastback]

I'd go with keeping the paraphrase, but if you highlight it with your mouse or thumbstick, it will display the full text.

[Brockololly]

I'm all for BioWare going the Deus Ex: Human Revolution route- get rid of the tone icons but keep very basic paraphrases/tones as text (which would allow greater nuance in tone), which when highlighted either give the full text response or a portion of the full text that sums up the whole response.

[Siven80]

I quite like the paraphrasing, but it can certainly be improved.

Having an option to show the full text would be good for some.

But imo the best improvement would be better paraphrasing.

Quite often the paraphrase is so off what Hawke actually says, even if its a short comment that would work well as a the paraphrase too, but for some reason the paraphrase is something else entirely.

Its like they are afraid of repeating themselves. Witcher 2's paraphrases generally work well because they arent afraid of repeating the paraphrase in the actual voice acting, so we get a more consistent and proper idea of what we are going to say compared to the majority of paraphases in DA2.

[Dubya75]

No, I think the paraphrasing can be improved (maybe shorter text, with the vocalisation including that text and then some) but I would defintely not see it go back to Origins style lists of replies.
It's worked well in DA2 and I think they should keep going in that direction.
Not once did I select a reply in DA2 that said anything other than what I intended. With the aid of the visual tone icons, it's really hard to go wrong.

Modifié par Dubya75, 21 août 2011 - 02:41 .

[MonkeyLungs]

I want to know exactly what my character is going to say. I also don't need to have a voiced protagonist because I have a great imagination and like to imagine the different voices for MY characters. Bioware just wants me to play THEIR characters now though because that's what most of YOU newfans want, so whatevers.

[billy the squid]

Brockololly wrote...

I'm all for BioWare going the Deus Ex: Human Revolution route- get rid of the tone icons but keep very basic paraphrases/tones as text (which would allow greater nuance in tone), which when highlighted either give the full text response or a portion of the full text that sums up the whole response.

Yes, this would be more to my prefrence. However, I really disliked the voice acting for Hawke in DA2 along with some of the dialogue, which simply made me cringe. So fixing this mechanic will not fix the larger underlying issue for me.

As such, the voice acting can be a very double edged sword.

[Salaya]

If they keep it as in DA2, no, thank you. I want to know what my character is going to say. If devs want a game that pleases a vast majority of players, give us (players who actually like to read) the option to see the full text.

For me, the paraphrasing is a clear step in the wrong direction. It should be an option, not an imposition. And the same for the tone icons ^_^u

[Mr.House]

As long as the system is not like TW2 where 99% of the time Geralt said something different and made me go O_o I'll be happy. I rather they stick with the icons but improve on the paraphrases, or just write out the text as an option for those that want it.

[Ianamus]

I don't mind the paraphrasing when it's good paraphrasing, but there were several times when I was unsatisfied with what my Hawke actually said. 

(At the end of Merrill's personal quest)

Me: "I'll take responsibility"

Hawke: "Dont worry- I wont let Merrill's evil blood magic harm anybody else"

Wait, what?

The problem in this case was that "I'll take responsibility" was very ambiguous. I honestly wish they would just scrap the dialogue wheel completely and have the full dialogue (or at least a good portion of it) in lists, but with the tone icons by the side, and a voiced protagonist. I don't see why they think a voiced protagonist only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing.

[TEWR]

EJ107 wrote...

I don't mind the paraphrasing when it's good paraphrasing, but there were several times when I was unsatisfied with what my Hawke actually said. 

(At the end of Merrill's personal quest)

Me: "I'll take responsibility"

Hawke: "Dont worry- I wont let Merrill's evil blood magic harm anybody else"

Wait, what?

The problem in this case was that "I'll take responsibility" was very ambiguous. I honestly wish they would just scrap the dialogue wheel completely and have the full dialogue (or at least a good portion of it) in lists, but with the tone icons by the side, and a voiced protagonist. I don't see why they think a voiced protagonist only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing.

because apparently the people in a focus group found it repetitive, and so they are able to speak for everyone.

Honestly, there's only one solution. Toggle.

[King Cousland]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

I don't mind the paraphrasing when it's good paraphrasing, but there were several times when I was unsatisfied with what my Hawke actually said. 

(At the end of Merrill's personal quest)

Me: "I'll take responsibility"

Hawke: "Dont worry- I wont let Merrill's evil blood magic harm anybody else"

Wait, what?

The problem in this case was that "I'll take responsibility" was very ambiguous. I honestly wish they would just scrap the dialogue wheel completely and have the full dialogue (or at least a good portion of it) in lists, but with the tone icons by the side, and a voiced protagonist. I don't see why they think a voiced protagonist only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing.

because apparently the people in a focus group found it repetitive, and so they are able to speak for everyone.

Honestly, there's only one solution. Toggle.

assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/citizen_cane.gif

[Cutlass Jack]

If the protaganist is voiced I prefer paraphrasing by a mile. Nothing is duller than listening to the protaganist speak through a line you already read before he opened his mouth. Full lines only really work when the protaganist is silent.

That said, the paraphrasing needs to be improved next time around. They picked an odd approach for it this time which caused confusion for some. Dominant personality drastically changed lines but the paraphrasing was the same no matter what the personality. I think they could handle that much better.

[willholt]

EJ107 wrote...
 I don't see why they think a voiced protagonist only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing.

Apparently, when the focus-grouped it they found that if the player read EXACTLY what the PC was going to say they would end up skipping the spoken dialogue. This made the concept of a Voiced protagonist kinda redundant. Why bother if everyone skips it.

Since the starting point seems to be 'We must have a voiced PC', rather than not do a voiced PC (an otherwise logical thing to do) tey opted for the PC saying something different to what the player reads. Hence the paraphrasing.

This however results in all those wonderful WTF moments when you make your choice and the PC opens his/her mouth.

In other words, the reason they think it only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing is because everyone skips the voice if they've already read what the voice is going to say.

[Ianamus]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

If the protaganist is voiced I prefer paraphrasing by a mile. Nothing is duller than listening to the protaganist speak through a line you already read before he opened his mouth. Full lines only really work when the protaganist is silent.

That said, the paraphrasing needs to be improved next time around. They picked an odd approach for it this time which caused confusion for some. Dominant personality drastically changed lines but the paraphrasing was the same no matter what the personality. I think they could handle that much better.

I can see why having somebody say the line you just read would be repetivtive, but in my my opinion, that is a problem with voiced-protagonists, not the dialogue system. If the only way voiced can work is with often bad and confusing paraphrasing then they should just go back to silent. 

willholt wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
 I don't see why they think a voiced protagonist only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing.

Apparently, when the focus-grouped it they found that if the player read EXACTLY what the PC was going to say they would end up skipping the spoken dialogue. This made the concept of a Voiced protagonist kinda redundant. Why bother if everyone skips it.

Since the starting point seems to be 'We must have a voiced PC', rather than not do a voiced PC (an otherwise logical thing to do) tey opted for the PC saying something different to what the player reads. Hence the paraphrasing.

This however results in all those wonderful WTF moments when you make your choice and the PC opens his/her mouth.

In other words, the reason they think it only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing is because everyone skips the voice if they've already read what the voice is going to say. 

The problem is that instead of going "voiced protagonists do not work with the current the current dialogue system, so should not be included" they went "The current dialogue system does not work with a voiced protagonist so it should be removed" 

Modifié par EJ107, 21 août 2011 - 03:51 .

[Dubya75]

Salaya wrote...

If they keep it as in DA2, no, thank you. I want to know what my character is going to say. If devs want a game that pleases a vast majority of players, give us (players who actually like to read) the option to see the full text.

For me, the paraphrasing is a clear step in the wrong direction. It should be an option, not an imposition. And the same for the tone icons ^_^u

The exact opposite could be just as stong an argument: I don't like to read, instead I love the voiced protaginist.
I don't need to know exactly what my character is going to say, I like to hear what he says...
If devs want to appeal to masses, then the voiced protagonist is definitely the way to go.
Paraphrasing is a clear step in the right direction, as well as the tone icons.

If people want text-based games where they can use their imagination more, then table-top RPGs is what they should go for, not this.

[Dubya75]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

If the protaganist is voiced I prefer paraphrasing by a mile. Nothing is duller than listening to the protaganist speak through a line you already read before he opened his mouth. Full lines only really work when the protaganist is silent.

That said, the paraphrasing needs to be improved next time around. They picked an odd approach for it this time which caused confusion for some. Dominant personality drastically changed lines but the paraphrasing was the same no matter what the personality. I think they could handle that much better.

The paraphrasing stayed the same to allow you to change your tone if you wanted to, or use a mixtture of tones depending on the situation.

[errant_knight]

The paraphrasing makes the PC feel even more like an NPC. Only a lunatic is surprised by their own words. That being said, I know why they do it. Up to this point, picking the right choice to get the reaction you wanted has been part of the game. In Origins that was because sometimes people don't take your words as you mean them, while in DA2, it was because sometimes you say something different than was implied. It they're going to paraphrase, they should get rid of the uncertainty as to what results your words would have. It's unfortunate, since that was a good part of gameplay in Origins, but with paraphrasing, it's just too alienating. If they insist on having a voiced character, they need to make choices clear enough that you're never thinkin 'wtf is coming out of my mouth?'

[Nerdage]

To be honest, there are times when I don't really care word-for-word what my character's going to say, it's enough to just know the intent. But then there are times when the conversation's more engaging and I really want to know exactly what they're going to say, so much so I sometimes reload multiple times to listen to all the different lines before making a final choice.

So I don't think they need to go away, but a scroll-over tooltip with the exact line on top of the paraphrases would be nice.

Modifié par nerdage, 21 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[Dubya75]

errant_knight wrote...

The paraphrasing makes the PC feel even more like an NPC. Only a lunatic is surprised by their own words. That being said, I know why they do it. Up to this point, picking the right choice to get the reaction you wanted has been part of the game. In Origins that was because sometimes people don't take your words as you mean them, while in DA2, it was because sometimes you say something different than was implied. It they're going to paraphrase, they should get rid of the uncertainty as to what results your words would have. It's unfortunate, since that was a good part of gameplay in Origins, but with paraphrasing, it's just too alienating. If they insist on having a voiced character, they need to make choices clear enough that you're never thinkin 'wtf is coming out of my mouth?'

Can't say I ever thought this in DA2. Paraprhrasing (although room for improvement) is clear enough together with the tone Icons.

[willholt]

EJ107 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

If the protaganist is voiced I prefer paraphrasing by a mile. Nothing is duller than listening to the protaganist speak through a line you already read before he opened his mouth. Full lines only really work when the protaganist is silent.

That said, the paraphrasing needs to be improved next time around. They picked an odd approach for it this time which caused confusion for some. Dominant personality drastically changed lines but the paraphrasing was the same no matter what the personality. I think they could handle that much better.

I can see why having somebody say the line you just read would be repetivtive, but in my my opinion, that is a problem with voiced-protagonists, not the dialogue system. If the only way voiced can work is with often bad and confusing paraphrasing then they should just go back to silent. 

willholt wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
 I don't see why they think a voiced protagonist only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing.

Apparently, when the focus-grouped it they found that if the player read EXACTLY what the PC was going to say they would end up skipping the spoken dialogue. This made the concept of a Voiced protagonist kinda redundant. Why bother if everyone skips it.

Since the starting point seems to be 'We must have a voiced PC', rather than not do a voiced PC (an otherwise logical thing to do) tey opted for the PC saying something different to what the player reads. Hence the paraphrasing.

This however results in all those wonderful WTF moments when you make your choice and the PC opens his/her mouth.

In other words, the reason they think it only works with dialogue wheels and paraphrasing is because everyone skips the voice if they've already read what the voice is going to say. 

The problem is that instead of going "voiced protagonists do not work with the current the current dialogue system, so should not be included" they went "The current dialogue system does not work with a voiced protagonist so it should be removed" 

I agree

I think their starting point with that focus group should have been ' Do we even need a voiced protagonist?'  ... Not 'We must have a voiced PC, how do we make it work?'

[Loc'n'lol]

willholt wrote...

I think their starting point with that focus group should have been ' Do we even need a voiced protagonist?'  ... Not 'We must have a voiced PC, how do we make it work?'

I'm sorry to break it for you but when asked if they prefer voiced or non-voiced characters, protagonist included, the overwhelming majority of people would of course go for the voiced character. There is no going back here.

Graphics get in the way of the game and limit imagination, would you rather like your game text-based ?

This is not to say the paraprasing couldn't be improved.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 21 août 2011 - 04:36 .

[Reznore57]

I like paraphrasing , but i play sarcastic Hawke all the time.
It was pretty funny .But it could be improved ,like a warning sign "bad joke incoming ".
The only thing I really didn't like is when Hawke say something that is the opposite of what you wanted.So they should work on being more clear with Hawke intent.

[willholt]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...



I'm sorry to break it for you

Don't be... I can quite happily live with either silent or voiced protagonist.

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...]but when asked if they prefer voiced or non-voiced characters, protagonist included, the overwhelming majority of people would of course go for the voiced character.

I wonder what the result would have been if they'd asked ' Would you prefer voiced, if the voiced character says something that's not even close to what you intended?'

I'm also not sure about the 'overwhelming majority' part of your statement. The two polls I've seen here on BSN are pretty much split down the middle. One in favour and one against, both by a smidgin.

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...There is no going back here.

I know

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...Graphics get in the way of the game and limit imagination, would you rather like your game text-based ?

Completely irrelevant to the current discussion

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...This is not to say the paraprasing couldn't be improved.

Agreed, very much so.

[Zanallen]

Once again, the best solution would be to just have a toggle or mouse over option that revealed the full line. Shouldn't be too difficult if the full line was shown in the recap text box.