148 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

ipgd wrote...

willholt wrote...

Surely what that should bring into question is the validity of having a voiced PC in the first place.

If (when given the option) players are skipping the voiced bit because they already know what is going to be said, that should tell them that players are more interested in the message than the medium through which it's delivered. If they were more interested in hearing it, rather than reading it, they wouldn't skip it

The fact that (despite this) they are still insisting that the voiced PC is necessary, and that a player should put up with a system that continuosly misleads them... well... it strikes me as a tad bizarre. Adding a layer of redundancy to a system, because you insist on keeping it, and without that layer people will not use it, is equally as bizarre.

But that is not a compromise. That is asking them to entirely change their design principles to cater to your preferences. Which is an argument you can make, but you can't really sell it as a compromise that will satisfy all parties.

Personally, I think time is better spent thinking of actual improvements to the system that work within the boundaries of those design decisions than futilely railing against what is already been repeatedly established as a set in stone direction for the Bioware teams (i.e. that player VA is staying and avoiding dialogue repetition is going to continue to be a priority for them). You're entitled to not like what they're doing, but it's... not going to change, so what's the point?

And as someone who creates stuff, I've never bought into the idea that what the audience wants is inherently more important than what the creator wants. If developers never make any choices because they wanted to, even if it may not be the most appealing option to their consumers, there would be exactly one kind of game and I can pretty much guarantee none of us would be the target audience.

Then do away with the source of the problem.  The voiced protagonist.

Really, player deserve to know exactly what their character is actually saying. No excuses.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

Dormiglione wrote...

This and remove the icons in the wheel.

The icons are fine. Removing the ambiguity of the line would be meaningless if you add the ambiguity of tone.

[ipgd]

EJ107 wrote...

How is a toggle that let's you choose to play either way not a compromise between people who want full text and those who don't??  

How would it not satisfy everybody?? 

Because it's not solely a matter of compromising between what the players want -- it's a matter of a certain kind of player behavior (i.e. skipping player VA when the player VA repeats the full line you just read) having been identified by the developers as undesirable behavior. That is why they implemented paraphrases in the first place. If they return the full line, and people continue to skip the player VA after seeing the full line, that core issue is still there and has rendered the paraphrases pointless for the issue they are intended to resolve. That is not a compromise, it is a solution to your issues with the system alone.

IanPolaris wrote...

Then do away with the source of the problem. The voiced protagonist.

Really, player deserve to know exactly what their character is actually saying. No excuses.

-Polaris

That's definitely not a compromise, either.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 août 2011 - 07:34 .

[Dormiglione]

Zanallen wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...

This and remove the icons in the wheel.

The icons are fine. Removing the ambiguity of the line would be meaningless if you add the ambiguity of tone.

Just my opinion. The "emotion" icon in the wheel should be removed. Also colors like this is a paragon or renegade answer. Without the icon, you would choose more the answer that you would really give at this moment. But with the icon, there is something like  "Nah, this is a harsh answer, it has a red icon on the left" let me choose the "good" one. 
If i could highlight the paraphrase and see the whole sentence, the icon became superfluous. 

[IanPolaris]

ipgd wrote...

That's definitely not a compromise, either.

No.  You aren't interested in a compromise.  The players deserve to know exactly what their characters are going to say!  If you can't accept that, then we have nothing to talk about.

-Polaris

[Ianamus]

ipgd wrote...

Because it's not solely a matter of compromising between what the players want -- it's a matter of a certain kind of player behavior (i.e. skipping player VA when the player VA repeats the full line you just read) having been identified by the developers as undesirable behavior. That is why they implemented paraphrases in the first place. If they return the full line, and people continue to skip the player VA after seeing the full line, that core issue is still there and has rendered the paraphrases pointless for the issue they are intended to resolve. That is not a compromise, it is a solution to your issues with the system alone.

If I made a piece of art, and it turned out that half of the people looked at it from the front (the way I want them to) but the other half prefered to look at it from the side, I wouldn't close of the sides so that everybody had to look at it the way I wanted. 

Modifié par EJ107, 21 août 2011 - 07:44 .

[ipgd]

IanPolaris wrote...

ipgd wrote...

That's definitely not a compromise, either.

No.  You aren't interested in a compromise.  The players deserve to know exactly what their characters are going to say!  If you can't accept that, then we have nothing to talk about.

-Polaris

I am not defending paraphrases. I am just saying that the solutions offered are not in fact satisfactory to all parties given that any system with a full line reintroduces the problems that motivated the developers to implement paraphrasing in the first place. They are inherently contradictory. There cannot be any compromise; you must either accept the repetition in player VA, or accept knowing less about what your character is going to say. You can argue that one is more important than the other, but their nature is such that there is no solution that can solve both of those problems short of removing player VA entirely and Bioware has repeatedly stated that is not going to happen.

[ipgd]

EJ107 wrote...

If I made a piece of art, and it turned out that half of the people looked at it from the front (the way I want them to) but the other half prefered to look at it from the side, I wouldn't close of the sides so that everybody had to look at it the way I wanted.

If I had put a million dollar blotch of paint in front and the people looking at it from the sides couldn't see it, and I was really fixated on having million dollar blotches of paint in front of my artworks, I'd probably close off the sides.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 août 2011 - 07:51 .

[IanPolaris]

ipgd wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

ipgd wrote...

That's definitely not a compromise, either.

No.  You aren't interested in a compromise.  The players deserve to know exactly what their characters are going to say!  If you can't accept that, then we have nothing to talk about.

-Polaris

I am not defending paraphrases. I am just saying that the solutions offered are not in fact satisfactory to all parties given that any system with a full line reintroduces the problems that motivated the developers to implement paraphrasing in the first place. They are inherently contradictory. There cannot be any compromise; you must either accept the repetition in player VA, or accept knowing less about what your character is going to say. You can argue that one is more important than the other, but their nature is such that there is no solution that can solve both of those problems short of removing player VA entirely and Bioware has repeatedly stated that is not going to happen.

OK, everyone here has offered a solution that at least is tolerable to both sides except to you.  What is YOUR solution and how it is any better?  Seems to me according to you that it's either paraphrasing or the voiced protagonist, and franklyh I'd ditch the voiced protagonist (which also greatly limits the rest of the game as well) if that's true.

-Polaris

[AtreiyaN7]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think one of the worst ideas for an RPG is to have a line of dialogue listed that never actually has the character saying what's actually written. It's the source for many complaints by fans who feel that Hawke isn't "their" character, since part of the problem is that he's saying lines that the player never intended for him (or her) to say. Am I the only one who feels the paraphrasing needs to be done away with?

No - paraphrasing is fine. Being able to read every line of dialogue doesn't somehow make the character more of "your" character, seeing as all dialogue is written by, oh, the DA writers and not you. They could, I'm sure do a better job of paraphrasing, but I enjoy the more natural flow of the conversation. Having recently had to suffer through an eleven-page sex scene in a book that I recently formatted, I can tell you with some certainty that excruciating detail can be a bad thing. In fact, the guy should have cut it down to one page and gone with paraphrasing - it probably would have sucked less if he had.

[Ianamus]

ipgd wrote...

If I had put a million dollar blotch of paint in front and the people looking at it from the sides couldn't see it, and I was really fixated on having million dollar blotches of paint in front of my artworks, I'd probably close off the sides.

But Bioware only "want" what they think will sell. What they think players want. 

The only reason Bioware "want" voiced protagonists is because that's what they think the players want. The whole reason they had a problem with people skipping the dialogue was becuase they thought that those people would have perferred to have heard it instead.

As it turns out, many players would rather see the full text, so the option should be included. 

[FieryDove]

ipgd wrote...

I am not defending paraphrases. I am just saying that the solutions offered are not in fact satisfactory to all parties given that any system with a full line reintroduces the problems that motivated the developers to implement paraphrasing in the first place. They are inherently contradictory. There cannot be any compromise; you must either accept the repetition in player VA, or accept knowing less about what your character is going to say. You can argue that one is more important than the other, but their nature is such that there is no solution that can solve both of those problems short of removing player VA entirely and Bioware has repeatedly stated that is not going to happen.

People skipped the cutscene dialogues in Origins and the player wasn't even voiced. They didn't like that either but what are they going to do? Put a message in an intro saying YOU WILL WATCH THESE or else?

The "Too much talking I just want to kill things" fans would not be pleased. Yes there were such complaints about Origins and ME1.

There is no way to please everyone, but with a bit of leeway a lot more can be at least satisfied. (optional full line example).

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, everyone here has offered a solution that at least is tolerable to both sides except to you.

Ideas are cheap, you can pretend they'd solve all your problems when infact they wouldn't. Contrary to popular belief, there's not two sides and when "one side" agrees, not all of them agree to everything. Solutuons that have been brought up are problematic and would not solve the problem as you think it would.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, everyone here has offered a solution that at least is tolerable to both sides except to you.

Ideas are cheap, you can pretend they'd solve all your problems when infact they wouldn't. Contrary to popular belief, there's not two sides and when "one side" agrees, not all of them agree to everything. Solutuons that have been brought up are problematic and would not solve the problem as you think it would.

So people should never come up with their own ideas if there are problems?  Pardon me if I strongly disagree.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

So people should never come up with their own ideas if there are problems?  Pardon me if I strongly disagree.

-Polaris

Feel free, just don't say an option is tolerable and works because it's exactly what you want. All options have flaws, not everybody of "both sides" will agree.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[ipgd]

IanPolaris wrote...


OK, everyone here has offered a solution that at least is tolerable to both sides except to you.

But it's not. These solutions ignore the core issue that motivated paraphrases in the first place. It is not a matter of satisfying a "side".

What is YOUR solution and how it is any better?  Seems to me according to you that it's either paraphrasing or the voiced protagonist, and franklyh I'd ditch the voiced protagonist (which also greatly limits the rest of the game as well) if that's true.

-Polaris

Like I said: there is no solution that can satisfy every concern. I'm also not going to tender solutions that contradict the defined design principles that Bioware has repeatedly established as "never going to change". That would be a waste of my brain power better spent on browsing TVTropes.

The best you or I could hope for is better paraphrases. There is certainly room for Bioware to improve its execution in that department, but they have said over and over and over and over and over again that the player VA is here to stay so arguing otherwise is sort of pointless.

EJ107 wrote...

But Bioware only "want" what they think will sell. What they think players want.

The only reason Bioware "want" voiced protagonists is because that's what they think the players want. The whole reason they had a problem with people skipping the dialogue was becuase they thought that those people would have perferred to have heard it instead.

As it turns out, many players would rather see the full text, so the option should be included.

No development studio is not solely concerned with pleasing consumers; they make many decisions that potentially garner them less than the optimal number of consumers. Like, say, choosing to develop an RPG in the first place. The only reason Dragon Age exists at all is because the developers were willing to do what they want at the expense of reaching the widest portion of the public possible -- and some of that is going to include going against even what their niche base may want. You can demand that they only make decisions to personally benefit you or your group, but in the end it was their willingness to not cater to the largest group that allowed them to make a game that wasn't Call of Duty or World of Warcraft or Farmville, and along with that is going to come sometimes doing things you don't like, even if you have somehow identified yourself as part of a majority subgroup.

I may not like everything that they decide to do, but neither do I feel they have an obligation to change their plans or please me or any group. Because, again, if fan opinion were truly the only thing that mattered to them in their design decisions, it certainly wouldn't be us they would be listening to.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 août 2011 - 08:15 .

[IanPolaris]

ipgd,

It sounds like a lame excuse for not allowing us to know what our character is ACTUALLY saying to me, and that's both inexcuseable and unforgivable....both by you and Bioware. If Bioware doens't care about it's customers and those it alienated then the franchise will die because the CoD crowd is saturated and already have games they like and RPGs aren't among them (or hybrids).

-Polaris

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

ipgd,

It sounds like a lame excuse for not allowing us to know what our character is ACTUALLY saying to me, and that's both inexcuseable and unforgivable....both by you and Bioware.

*Headdesk*

And enough of the "COD crowd" already, it's as insipid as the "They just wanted more DAO!" line.

[Ianamus]

ipgd wrote...

No development studio is not solely concerned with pleasing consumers; they make many decisions that potentially garner them less than the optimal number of consumers. Like, say, choosing to develop an RPG in the first place. The only reason Dragon Age exists at all is because the developers were willing to do what they want at the expense of reaching the widest portion of the public possible -- and some of that is going to include going against even what their niche base may want. You can demand that they only make decisions to personally benefit you or your group, but in the end it was their willingness to not cater to the largest group that allowed them to make a game that wasn't Call of Duty or World of Warcraft or Farmville, and along with that is going to come sometimes doing things you don't like, even if you have somehow identified yourself as part of a majority subgroup.

I may not like everything that they decide to do, but neither do I feel they have an obligation to change their plans or please me or any group. Because, again, if fan opinion were truly the only thing that mattered to them in their design decisions, it certainly wouldn't be us they would be listening to.

I never said that I had a "right" "Obligation" or "deserved" anything. All I said was that having a toggle would please both groups, and that your arguments about it being a bad idea because Bioware didn't like people skipping cutscenes were ridiculous. 

If Bioware were that desperate for people not to skip cutscenes then they wouldn't be skippable in the first place. 

It's a good idea that would make many people happy, and I'm leaving it at that. It's not worth speaking with you. 

[ipgd]

IanPolaris wrote...

ipgd,

It sounds like a lame excuse for not allowing us to know what our character is ACTUALLY saying to me, and that's both inexcuseable and unforgivable....both by you and Bioware.

No, that's what one might call a "reason". I'm a little unsure as to why you seem to insist upon turning everything into some sort of bizarre conspiracy theory, though. Also, did I run over your dog or something? You seem pretty upset, guy.

If Bioware doens't care about it's customers and those it alienated then the franchise will die because the CoD crowd is saturated and already have games they like and RPGs aren't among them (or hybrids).

Feel free to vote with your dollar if you don't like what they make, but they've gotten this far without being complete slaves to the fanbase so I am pretty sure they're going to be fine.

[ipgd]

EJ107 wrote...

I never said that I had a "right" "Obligation" or "deserved" anything. All I said was that having a toggle would please both groups, and that your arguments about it being a bad idea because Bioware didn't like people skipping cutscenes were ridiculous. 

If Bioware were that desperate for people not to skip cutscenes then they wouldn't be skippable in the first place. 

It's a good idea that would make many people happy, and I'm leaving it at that.

I'm just saying that it's not about pleasing a certain group of fans; paraphrases weren't introduced to please a certain group of fans. They were introduced to address a specific issue identified by the developers. This "compromise" solution ressurects that very same issue, so it is in fact not a satisfactory compromise, in that it... doesn't address the very issue that motivated the creation of paraphrases in the first place. In that respect, it is indistinguishable from a plain old full line system.

With any system that includes a full line along with player VA, repetition is going to be an issue for the developers. That is just how it is. There is no neat little middle ground solution that makes everyone happy.

It's not worth speaking with you.

Geez, you guys are awfully snippy today. Did I run over multiple dogs?

Modifié par ipgd, 21 août 2011 - 08:34 .

[Dave of Canada]

ipgd wrote...

Geez, you guys are awfully snippy today. Did I run over multiple dogs?

And a cat.

Poor Ser Pounce-a-lot.

[Abispa]

For the most part the paraphrasing works for me, but I have had problems with it in the past, particularly during the ME series where I want to say something "tough" as a renegade and wind up sounding like a stereotypical racist redneck.

I don't mind the old DA:O text selection in games without VA, and I wouldn't mind seeing more games without ANY VA at all, even for NPCs. If the sidekicks talk, though, so should the hero in my book.

I HATED it when the moment for a big VA speech arrived and Alistar, Anora, or Oghren had to give it for me. Nothing made the cinematic feeling of DA:O fail for me than having to stand there like a mannequin while Alistair, who spent the game being my water boy, took charge of the army, or when drunken dumb-ass Oghren nominated the Dwarven king in my name.

[Xewaka]

ipgd wrote...
I'm just saying that it's not about pleasing a certain group of fans; paraphrases weren't introduced to please a certain group of fans. They were introduced to address a specific issue identified by the developers. This "compromise" solution ressurects that very same issue, so it is in fact not a satisfactory compromise, in that it... doesn't address the very issue that motivated the creation of paraphrases in the first place. In that respect, it is indistinguishable from a plain old full line system.

The thing is, the issue they are trying to address is not an issue to a sizable portion of the players, yet the solution implemented generates a new set of issues to a sizable portion of the players. The solution brings in new problems. That they do not wish to recognize them as such does not remove the fact that they exist.
If they actually wanted people to avoid skipping the lines, then, as many people pointed out, they would've made the cutscenes unskippable until they were flagged as "watched" (thus retaining the rerun-reload skip feature).