148 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

ipgd wrote...

Geez, you guys are awfully snippy today. Did I run over multiple dogs?

Your avatar is just too fabulous for them.

[ipgd]

Xewaka wrote...

The thing is, the issue they are trying to address is not an issue to a sizable portion of the players, yet the solution implemented generates a new set of issues to a sizable portion of the players. The solution brings in new problems. That they do not wish to recognize them as such does not remove the fact that they exist.

When did I say they didn't exist? All I've been saying this entire thread is that the solutions offered do not actually satisfy everyone's issues and bring joy and harmony to all the land.

If they actually wanted people to avoid skipping the lines, then, as many people pointed out, they would've made the cutscenes unskippable until they were flagged as "watched" (thus retaining the rerun-reload skip feature).

They didn't, and they wouldn't, for reasons I am sure are plenty obvious enough. Unless you mean to suggest that they were lying when they explained why they decided to use paraphrases, and that everything they do is just a big sinister conspiracy meant to make their games as unfun as possible. Which I am not going to have a discussion about.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 août 2011 - 08:57 .

[gamer_girl]

How are people not getting this? Paraphrasing isn't the problem. It was actually a solution to the problem of people getting taken away from gameplay by having to read the long actual dialogue options before using them. Paraphrasing isn't the problem, the accuracy of the paraphrasing is. I personally would hate to have to sit there sifting through long dialogue entries to find one I like. I'd rather have simple, to the point, brief explanations of what was going to be said. If there's one thing I'd like them to add to the paraphrase though it's tone of voice. Why would they waste time creating that extra feature when it's fine the way it is but could just use a touch-up? It makes no sense. Not to mention the few who actually have that big of a problem with the paraphrasing aren't worth the time. I mean if there were really that many opposed to it (and that strongly mind you), they'd have A) changed it by now and not made as many sales.

Modifié par gamer_girl, 21 août 2011 - 09:03 .

[axl99]

This might be an issue that can be solved with UI design.
But there's another problem: the length of the response. Depending on how long it is, it might not even work with the UI.

[Xewaka]

ipgd wrote...
They didn't, and they wouldn't, for reasons I am sure are plenty obvious enough. Unless you mean to suggest that they were lying when they explained why they decided to use paraphrases, and that everything they do is just a big sinister conspiracy meant to make their games as unfun as possible. Which I am not going to have a discussion about.

You continuously defend that they use paraphrases to avoid skipping the voice acting due to repetition. The skipping can be avoiding by denying the line or by denying the skipping. I'd rather they denied the first skipping than they denied us the ability to choose dialogue. That way we're still listening the voice acting they so wrongly focus on but we don't loose the ability to compromise dialogue with our character vision before rather than after the dialogue.

[FieryDove]

axl99 wrote...

This might be an issue that can be solved with UI design.
But there's another problem: the length of the response. Depending on how long it is, it might not even work with the UI.

Maybe have it shown up top where the subtitles are shown. It's already there as an option. (Subtitles on/off)

[Dave of Canada]

How would they show an entire chunk of a conversation? A paraphrase isn't only one line.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[ipgd]

Xewaka wrote...

You continuously defend that they use paraphrases to avoid skipping the voice acting due to repetition. The skipping can be avoiding by denying the line or by denying the skipping. I'd rather they denied the first skipping than they denied us the ability to choose dialogue. That way we're still listening the voice acting they so wrongly focus on but we don't loose the ability to compromise dialogue with our character vision before rather than after the dialogue.

They clearly decided that encouraging the player to not skip through the dialogue by paraphrasing was preferable to them over forcing the player to not skip dialogue through a fixed restriction. Forcing this sort of thing would create an entirely new set of disgruntled people; they did it this way to reduce the number of people skipping through player VA due to repetition, not forbid it entirely for any player for any reason (on their first listening or not). I'm not going to have an argument with you about why what you want is more important than what they want.

I'm not here to defend the merit of their design decisions. Let's see if stripping the buttmad out of the equation makes it more clear: They did A because of X. A solves problem X, but introduces problem Y. Solution B proposes to solve problem Y, but reintroduces problem X while claiming it's a perfect compromise because it also solves problem Z which wasn't actually the problem solution A was designed to solve. Thus, B is not actually a perfect compromise. Whether you think problem Y is a bigger issue than problem X is irrelevant to whether or not solution B solves both problem Y and problem X, which it doesn't. That is an entirely separate argument which I am not having.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[FieryDove]

Dave of Canada wrote...

How would they show an entire chunk of a conversation? A paraphrase isn't only one line.

What game are you talking about? Most of the paraphrases in DA2 when I played it were 2-3 words, maybe 4. Another reason it's not a good solution, no matter how good the writers are some conversations cannot be condensed that much. It just won't work. (and make sense)

[elearon1]

Honestly, I have never minded the paraphrasing. I think having the entire text written out, then spoken, *is* rather redundant.

That said, there seem to be a lot of people who want a whole text, or partial text, method and I wouldn't try to deny them that simply because I find it bothersome.

I would be concerned, though, that it means a little more time required for that part of the game, and adjusting the display to compensate, which could take time away from an aspect which deserves more tlc. (time and money are finite resources when on a schedule, after all, and I'd hate for part of the story to suffer because they had to spend an extra week or so writing - what basically constitutes a novel - for the dialog display.)

So, in the best of all worlds, they'd have something for everyone - but it is low on my list of priorities for things I'd want to see changed.

[gamer_girl]

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone actually read what I wrote...

Modifié par gamer_girl, 21 août 2011 - 09:56 .

[Vicious]

Picking the funny option and hearing Hawke say something completely off the wall and amusing is not something I want to lose.

Ever.

Keep the paraphrasing. Too much 'it's different and is bad' hate going on here.

[0x30A88]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

willholt wrote...

I think their starting point with that focus group should have been ' Do we even need a voiced protagonist?'  ... Not 'We must have a voiced PC, how do we make it work?'

I'm sorry to break it for you but when asked if they prefer voiced or non-voiced characters, protagonist included, the overwhelming majority of people would of course go for the voiced character. There is no going back here.

Graphics get in the way of the game and limit imagination, would you rather like your game text-based ?

This is not to say the paraprasing couldn't be improved.

Yeah, DA2's sales surely tell that the changes are welcome. There are polls where silent is in majority, none are official.Imagine they also locked the look, as it is reduntant as the character is still the same. There's a reason sales skydived after week one.

It's resources that could be spent on more quest givers and dialogue for actual consequenses. Some like to play a charater, not watch it.

After playthrough 2 you'll know what I'm talking about.

DA3 will have to stand on its own merits. Let's wait and see if voiced will be as welcome when we have seen it in DA2.

Vicious wrote...

Picking the funny option and hearing Hawke say something completely off the wall and amusing is not something I want to lose.

Ever.

Keep the paraphrasing. Too much 'it's different and is bad' hate going on here.

Please, keep your opinions for yourselves, it's too much "I am not a fan" in here. /your logic

No offence, but respect that people take issue with changes from a first game in a series and expected the same what paved the way for hundreds of hours of fun in a large world with some choices and combinations thereof that at least mattered a bit.

Vocied + CC = CC is redundant. Imagine a forced skin tone or hair color.

I prefer playing the character, not watching it as you pick your lucky-line. As you seem to do.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 21 août 2011 - 10:10 .

[Vicious]

This is a forum. People have opinions. You are no moderator.

So suck it. Play your 'character' in an MMO or better yet, pen and paper, because something so subjective and reliant on imagination can only be done right there.

Modifié par Vicious, 21 août 2011 - 10:11 .

[dheer]

gamer_girl wrote...
Not to mention the few who actually have that big of a problem with the paraphrasing aren't worth the time. I mean if there were really that many opposed to it (and that strongly mind you), they'd have A) changed it by now and not made as many sales.

Thanks. You know what wasn't worth the time? Reading your post.

The sales haven't exactly been great either.

[Protodega]

I don't mind the paraphrasing, personally. Like others have said, it's how well what's paraphrased matches up with what's actually said that becomes the issue. For the most part Bioware does a pretty good job with this, but there are certainly places where the problem crops up.

The best example I can think of is during Sebastian's personal quest in act 2, when talking to Allure Hawke has the option "Don't listen to her!", which comes off to me as probably being some pious line about demonic temptation, but what Hawke actually says is "You'll be a good ruler. It doesn't matter what you do to get there."

I always pick this option, since that's the kind of character I like to play, but the paraphrase really could have been better. But, again, this is just nitpicking. I find that they do pretty well at indicating what Hawke is going to say in most instances.

Modifié par Protodega, 21 août 2011 - 10:16 .

[billy the squid]

Vicious wrote...

Keep the paraphrasing. Too much 'it's different and is bad' hate going on here.

In your case there is also much stupidity and sweeping generalisations, thank you for illustrating the point so aptly.

Modifié par billy the squid, 21 août 2011 - 10:43 .

[willholt]

ipgd wrote...



And as someone who creates stuff, I've never bought into the idea that what the audience wants is inherently more important than what the creator wants. If developers never make any choices because they wanted to, even if it may not be the most appealing option to their consumers, there would be exactly one kind of game and I can pretty much guarantee none of us would be the target audience.

I too create stuff... for the last few years it's being digital 3D art, but previous to that I spent 30 years creating music, both live and in studios... Did plenty of music engineering and production too.

Keeping a creative vision is fine up to a point... but when keeping that vision means reducing of (or even impairing the function of) those who would partake of your creation, then sometimes it's better to accept that your creation might be flawed and needs re-working. To obstinately insist on something that isn't working well is not so much being a visionary as been an egotistical idiot.

You create music... people either like listening to it or not... that's cool.

You create visual art... people either like looking at it or not

You create a video game ... both the above apply, but there's also the HUGE third pillar which is function. People have to play it!... It has to function properly, and if it doesn't you can scream 'It's my artisic vision' all you like, but people will eventually get very fed up, start complaining, and even give up on it.

Any interactive art has to compromise to a certain extent. The more the art creator limits the user input the less it becomes interactive. People buy computer games to interact with them, and play them how they want. When a creator starts removing (or adding) functions to stop the user playing a certain way, you reduce the interactivity. In a computer game (particularly an RPG) this is not good.

I'll say it once again... I'm cool with either a voiced or a non-voiced PC... I actually play with the volume off (and sub-titles on)most of the time anyway. For me it's more about reducing those 'WTF' moments when conversing with ingame characters... something I did a lot of while playing DA2.

... and since we seem to be going around in circles, and getting nowhere, I'm bowing out of this conversation (unless someone replies as it would be rude to ignore them). I suspect that, like many other aspects of the game, and many of the other threads on BSN, the opposing sides are never going to meet in the middle.

[Morroian]

willholt wrote...

Keeping a creative vision is fine up to a point... but when keeping that vision means reducing of (or even impairing the function of) those who would partake of your creation, then sometimes it's better to accept that your creation might be flawed and needs re-working. To obstinately insist on something that isn't working well is not so much being a visionary as been an egotistical idiot.

By that principle Van Gogh's work was flawed.

[Aradace]

Blastback wrote...

I'd go with keeping the paraphrase, but if you highlight it with your mouse or thumbstick, it will display the full text.

Im all for this idea right here.  One of the few things that I've noticed that BW is consistantly bad at is paraphrasing.  I know that there are two different teams for DA and ME but both teams are consistantly awful at paraphrasing.   I dont know how they'd do it, or how difficult it'd be to do it.  But the point is, something needs to be done to remedy the situation because we know for certain that paraphrasing is NOT the way to go.  

[willholt]

Morroian wrote...

willholt wrote...

Keeping a creative vision is fine up to a point... but when keeping that vision means reducing of (or even impairing the function of) those who would partake of your creation, then sometimes it's better to accept that your creation might be flawed and needs re-working. To obstinately insist on something that isn't working well is not so much being a visionary as been an egotistical idiot.

By that principle Van Gogh's work was flawed.

Bad analogy, as he simply painted (static medium)... People either liked it or they didn't

Now, if Van Gogh was someone who sold 'Painting By Numbers' kits, and suddenly decided people were finishing the colouring too quickly, so he started selling them with only half the numbers.... that analogy might work. :happy:

Modifié par willholt, 21 août 2011 - 11:20 .

[Abispa]

gamer_girl wrote...

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone actually read what I wrote...

The problem is you should have named yourself "gamer_BRO," nobody listens to chicks. Now, what were you saying?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Certain Bioware reps have already said they like the paraphrase system, it fits with the dialogue wheel and it's here to stay, so I doubt they'll drop it.

I don't like it. I prefer full sentences. That said, if they introduce full sentences for mouse hover-over or something, I'll be much happier. But with the current system and (enforced) Voiced PC, I think I'll be waiting for future games to hit the bargain bin or just pass. Such things simply don't excite me in my RPGs.

[R0vena]

Protodega wrote...

I don't mind the paraphrasing, personally. Like others have said, it's how well what's paraphrased matches up with what's actually said that becomes the issue. For the most part Bioware does a pretty good job with this, but there are certainly places where the problem crops up.

The best example I can think of is during Sebastian's personal quest in act 2, when talking to Allure Hawke has the option "Don't listen to her!", which comes off to me as probably being some pious line about demonic temptation, but what Hawke actually says is "You'll be a good ruler. It doesn't matter what you do to get there."

I always pick this option, since that's the kind of character I like to play, but the paraphrase really could have been better. But, again, this is just nitpicking. I find that they do pretty well at indicating what Hawke is going to say in most instances.

This.