148 réponses à ce sujet

[Kimberly Shaw]

Oh for a world where we can have a voiced character AND tons and tons of dialogue choices. Anytime the technology is limiting the roleplaying to the extent that I can only answer with Olive Branch, Funny Face, or Fist O'Fury; it's time to go back to silent character until the technology gets us there. I play RPGs for choice and to role play, not to listen to Voice Actors.

That said, again, I know we are not far off from dialogue choices akin to PS:Torment WITH voiced protagonist, just a few more years or so...and that will be a happy time.

In the meanwhile, paraphrasing can go away. I *hate* when I pick an option and the outcome is totally different than I wanted. And it happened enough in DA2 that it was a problem and something I hated about the game.

The toggle option here seems the best of the bad choice (I don't like the restriction technology creates on choices of responses as I said at this time). At least let me know what I'm going to say and not be blindsided by a terribly worded paraphrase.

[Savber100]

I vote that Bioware adopts the Deus Ex: Human Revolution dialogue wheel for Dragon Age. So much better if you've seen the multiple walkthroughs, previews. and *coughleakedbetacough*

[csfteeeer]

Savber100 wrote...

I vote that Bioware adopts the Deus Ex: Human Revolution dialogue wheel for Dragon Age. So much better if you've seen the multiple walkthroughs, previews. and *coughleakedbetacough*

Well, that's exactly what the OP wants (or at least i guess), no Paraphrasing, what it says on the screen, is what Jensen says(minus a few occasions)

[maxernst]

Yes, absolutely need to get rid of the paraphrasing. I thought that possibly the tone icons would help, but in fact it sometimes made things even worse because I often found that the paraphrase that sounded most like what I wanted to say was not with the tone that I wanted to express. I can't understand why people aren't bothered by having Hawke tell unexpected lies and express opinions that you don't agree with at all. Just as an example, when Merrill asks about Bethany in Act 2, I chose the "I'm not sure" paraphrase because I couldn't be sure that someone wasn't screening her mail. I didn't know if she was free to express her honest opinion. And Hawke pops out with the outright lie that he hasn't heard from her.

I have played the Witcher and no, it didn't bother me to hear the words spoken after having read them, not at all, any more than it bothers me to formulate what I'm going to say in my head and then hear myself saying it. The fact that I couldn't stand Geralt bothered me, but that's another story entirely.

[Ianamus]

Savber100 wrote...

I vote that Bioware adopts the Deus Ex: Human Revolution dialogue wheel for Dragon Age. So much better if you've seen the multiple walkthroughs, previews. and *coughleakedbetacough*

Deus ex Human Revolution has a brilliant dialogue system. It has branching options that drasticly change the tone of the conversation, and instead of paraphrasing has the full dialogue written out. When it is paraphrased, the exacts words of the paraphrase appear in the text. 

And this is in a game where you play as a set Protagonist!

To all of you who said that having somebody repeat what you have just chosen is boring/repetetive: It's not

The conversation system is fantastic, far better than DA2's and even, in some ways, better than Origins. It shows that a voiced protagonist does not have to mean a limited dialogue wheel with ridiculous paraphrasing. Never once did I feel that Jensen said something I did not want him to. 

Modifié par EJ107, 28 août 2011 - 02:43 .

[Chromie]

^ True ^

EJ107 wrote...
When what is esentially an action-shooter game starts doing conversations and choices better than the game that's supposed to be about dialogue and choices, you know there's a problem.

Deus Ex is an rpg. You roleplay as a character, level up and make choices so if that isn't enough for it to be an rpg then I don't know why Mass Effect is an rpg.

Modifié par Ringo12, 28 août 2011 - 02:29 .

[Ianamus]

Edit: I've just removed that part of my post, since it was badly worded. Please don't turn this isn't a "what is or isn't a RPG" debate- that wasnt the point of my post.

Modifié par EJ107, 28 août 2011 - 02:46 .

[Reno_Tarshil]

I personally think what my sarcastic Hawk says fits perfectly with whatever situation he's in. He brings a smile to my face every time he action hero talks someone down. This is probally due to my love of the cheesey sarcastic action movies of the 80's though.

Commando, I'm talking to you.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

I want to know exactly what my character is going to say. I also don't need to have a voiced protagonist because I have a great imagination and like to imagine the different voices for MY characters. Bioware just wants me to play THEIR characters now though because that's what most of YOU newfans want, so whatevers.

This. The paraphrasing is just lame. Hell, I didn't even really care much for it in ME. There's little that's more distracting, even emersion breaking, than to click on a reply, and the answer not only be totally different than what I thought it would say, but the response not even seeming to have any realtion to the choice I picked. Like, something seriously lost in translation. There werea number of times where the dialogue wheel choice actually said something I thought was fitting or appropriate, only to have Hawke say something entirely different, and often, lame or uninteresting. So yeah, I really dislike the whole dialogue system of DA2. It was more often than not irritaing and immersion killing.

But then again, I really hate the dialogue wheel and the voiced protagonist for a number of reasons, too many to list. The minimal click/talk voice sets were more than fine as far as I'm concerned. I like to play characters, who I can imagine have different voices suited to their personality type.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

I'm all for BioWare going the Deus Ex: Human Revolution route- get rid of the tone icons but keep very basic paraphrases/tones as text (which would allow greater nuance in tone), which when highlighted either give the full text response or a portion of the full text that sums up the whole response.

I think that Bioware would still need tone even if they go the DXHR route, because a DA3 protagonist wouldn't be as defined as Jensen was. 

[In Exile]

willholt wrote...
Which is where we are with the present level of paraphrasing in Da2!

That's because Bioware's rule is to not ever repeat words that were in the paraphrase. That's the problem.

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

That's because Bioware's rule is to not ever repeat words that were in the paraphrase. That's the problem.

Due to space constraints, a paraphrase has an upper limit of 30 characters, including punctuation and spaces. That means that the upper limit of content capacity of a paraphrase is five words. Five words cannot express a complex statement, only simple ideas. When transforming complex statements to simple ideas, information is lost in the translation. Thus paraphrases do not offer full information on our character dialogue. The player is reduced to make guesses instead of choices, and any control over the dialogue is lost to the player.
Mathematically, paraphrases cannot work as a dialogue choicing mechanism because they lack the space to give the player sufficient information. The problem with paraphrases is paraphrasing.

[SkittlesKat96]

Like what other people said they could try out the DXHR of doing it.

If they don't do that then I don't really mind if they keep the paraphrasing, honestly I don't care too much about how they do it.

[Reidbynature]

The paraphrasing in DA2 is definitely a problem, but I'd still keep the wheel itself.  It's a good way to keep the talking interface simple and easier to navigate, but they do need to make sure it actually translates well to what you say.

It happened at times in ME2 where what you picked had little to do with what was said next. That problem seems to be worse in DA2. I would like to know what I'm saying and have a clear choice outside of the tone of my snarky comments.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 28 août 2011 - 01:55 .

[metalgirl-1]

I think the wheel itself is a good idea, but the paraphrasing really sucked. They should just write what you're actually going to say instead of the paraphrasing so you're character doesn't end up saying a opinion that they don't actually have, or something that seems completely unrelated to what was said. Also sometimes if you go through the investigate options, the icon choices no longer make any sense. This needs to be addressed, in my opinion.

[Nurot]

I think paraphrases are a good idea, but they need to better represent the spoken dialouge. I feel that the paraphrases in act I was really bad, but they improved in act II and III. Or maybe I just got used to them...

I wouldn't mind a toggle, but I don't want the full text to show when I move the pointer over the paraphrase. I can't stop myself from reading text (I do it automatically and quickly) and I don't want to be "spoiled" about what will actually be said.

[Time4Tiddy]

Nurot wrote...

I wouldn't mind a toggle, but I don't want the full text to show when I move the pointer over the paraphrase. I can't stop myself from reading text (I do it automatically and quickly) and I don't want to be "spoiled" about what will actually be said.

I agree with this.  I replaying The Witcher right now before diving in to TW2, and it drives me crazy that they print the entire dialogue on your selection panel, and then you still have to listen to Geralt say the entire thing you just read.  I've gotten too used to the ME2/DA2 dialogue wheel.  Much better to give a general idea and then enjoy the dialogue, even if a few times it's unclear.

I think they actually did a pretty solid job by using the icons to differentiate from actually aggressive vs. direct (fist vs. gavel) and diplomatic vs. nice (olive branch vs. halo), etc.

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
Due to space constraints, a paraphrase has an upper limit of 30 characters, including punctuation and spaces. That means that the upper limit of content capacity of a paraphrase is five words. Five words cannot express a complex statement, only simple ideas.

You're absolutely right. 30 characters can't possibly convey anything that is complex linguistically, only ideas. Here is the issue: neither can 60 characters, and that was what we had with the full text. That's Bioware's expression.

And once you go above 60 characters, once you have more detailed and engrossing writing (like Vampire the Masquerade, or Planescape) you essentially give up the ability to have your 'own' voice anyway, since the depth and nuance of the writing comes from being in a particular voice. 

When transforming complex statements to simple ideas, information is lost in the translation. Thus paraphrases do not offer full information on our character dialogue. The player is reduced to make guesses instead of choices, and any control over the dialogue is lost to the player.

It always comes back to the same thing: what information is worth it, and what information is important to RP.

Liking or disliking the paraphrase will always come down to how much of the literal content of a line someone thinks matters. That's it.

Mathematically, paraphrases cannot work as a dialogue choicing mechanism because they lack the space to give the player sufficient information. The problem with paraphrases is paraphrasing.

No, mathematically it works just fine. 

Everything hinges on "sufficient" information. 

edit:

There are two issues here.

1) "The gist of it" problem, which is to say that not everyone agrees whether just having the gist of it counts as suffiicent information. This is where you disagree, and your problem with the paraphrase.

2) The paraphrase itself. Even if you agree re: the information, that doesn't mean the issue is solved regarding accuracy with the dialogue. Because the paraphrase still has to convey the gist properly. This is where I have a problem.

To use a DA2 example:

"He won't be alone" ===> "At least Father will have company." is a BIG wtf?

"Father won't be alone" ===> "At least Father will have company" is easier to comprehend. 

Modifié par In Exile, 28 août 2011 - 03:18 .

[Time4Tiddy]

In Exile wrote...

To use a DA2 example:

"He won't be alone" ===> "At least Father will have company." is a BIG wtf?

"Father won't be alone" ===> "At least Father will have company" is easier to comprehend. 

Agree there are many places the paraphrase could be improved.  In this particular example I always think Hawke is going to mean "He won't be alone..."  "...because we're sending a horde of darkspawn to their deaths after him."

[esper]

...Ah, this topic again. I don't mind paraphrasing - I have gotten used to it, but I do think that bioware should simply make the paraphrases summary of what the character is going to say, and not this weird mix or intent/persecption/how it is received by the other character - which I think is what they are doing now.

[Sylvianus]

I think that DA2 didn't make at all a good advertising for this system. I want to try again, with more accuracy, efficiency, and improvements. It has great potential if really worked, as in many other areas.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 28 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[Momiji.mii]

I personally prefer the dialogue wheel to having everything written out. I didn't mind the paraphrasing, but I definitely agree that they could be made more accurate. All in all, the way the tone of how Hawke talks changes, both because of what icon I choose at the moment (friendly, sarcastic, determinated), both because of the overall tone he/she's been using (determined by which icon has been used most frequently), is a very pleasing system to me. But as everything else in DA2, just becase they're good doesn't mean they can't be made even better. I'm hoping DA3 will polish the system and perhaps make sure that the paraphrasing gives players a more accurate preview of what they're about to say.

[Spell Singer]

I prefer to have a voiced protagonist if you are going to have cut scenes where other people talk. It is vastly more jarring to have your mute character there in the middle of other people speaking then when what he says isn't quite what you expected. I have to admit I don't find a problem in ordinary conversation with this system but in choosing between options in plot progression sometimes you can get a wildly different reaction. Playing a rogue and doing the quest Loose Ends I though the response I choose ment..."Find another buyer and try again." It didn't, instead meaning "Take the money and run."

Better paraphrasing and the icons is the best solution. Even with the text infront of you, you can interpret it to mean something else other what the writer intended. That is why the icons are good, I don't want to miss the start of a romance because I didn't understand that this was the entry point diologue choice because it didn't come off as flirty as much as something not appropriate to say. The WTF moment can occur in my experience as often when the text is written out as when you have a paraphrase and icon. If anything I'd suggest more icons to seperate sarcasm from witty repartee or angry threat from tough love kick in the pants or diplomatic response from concern (though I think that is in...).

At the end of the day you are only picking from options someone else wrote so the main thing in my mind is not producing a conversation where your character alternately smoozes and froths at the mouth...except in cases where a shocking reveal might prompt such a change in tone.