92 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

I've decided to give my Warrior a rest, and try out the DW Rogue. I'm hoping for some general advice for the best way to build one. I've looked at the DW Rogue guide in the sticky at the top of the forum, but that one seems to be mainly a pre-patch version with a quick blurb about post-patch tactics that, to my understanding, negates the entire guide if you're using the patch. I'm therefore hoping for general advice on how to run this particular character, including party members.

My current plan is to pump DEX to about 42 to equip gear, then boost CUN for crit damage. I also plan on filling out the Assassin tree. I'm torn on my second spec; Shadow has some nice stuff (Pinpoint Precision, Shadow Veil, Disorienting Criticals, Predator), but Duelist has extra crit chance just for being one, passive boosts to Attack and Defense, and Vendetta. And I think I saw words to the effect that Assassin wasn't anywhere near as good anymore.

Also, my party. Apparently, a Warrior isn't needed post-patch, so I'm looking at Anders, Merril, and Varric. Is this any good?

What would you guys advise?

[SuicidalBaby]

Arelex's build.

[Mocker22]

For a DW rogue I highly suggest taking Aveline. The only way I see you going with no warrior is a pure ranged group, wich can work ok.

Also Aveline can stagger like a champ and rogues deal a ton of dmg off of staggers. I'd go with duelist over shadow. Between Scoundrel and Stealth trees your fine on agro management and escape tools. Duelist as you said gives great passives, and Vendetta is BEASTLY. Jump way across the battefield and whoop somethin.

While rogues can no longer just 1 shot bosses the same stuff applies. I'd recomend lanning on using Nature dmg the entire game. The 2 best daggers are nature dmg. You can alsogo spirirt in act 3 if you wanna focus on anti templar/mage.

[swk3000]

Alright. Most of the guides were made before the patch, so I've been wary of their usefulness lately.

[swk3000]

So since I'll be going Anders, Merrill, and Aveline, that means I'll need to hold off on pumping DEX to pump my CUN so I can open chests and disarm traps. Which also means my damage and equipment options for Act I are really going to suck. Guess I'll be stuck using all DLC stuff for most of the act.

[Xalen]

Brock22 wrote...

 The only way I see you going with no warrior is a pure ranged group, wich can work ok..

awww, come on. DW Hawke/Anders/Varric/Isabela is a total faceroll post-patch.

swk3000 wrote...

So since I'll be going Anders, Merrill, and Aveline, that means I'll need to hold off on pumping DEX to pump my CUN so I can open chests and disarm traps. Which also means my damage and equipment options for Act I are really going to suck. Guess I'll be stuck using all DLC stuff for most of the act.

you need only 20 cun in act 1, it's not THAT much. Besides, you will be using DLC stuff most of the time anyway. There may be some better gear for some levels (I don't really remember now), but not much and not for long. So with DLC you get the best gear AND bonus to lockpicking, everybody wins.
You'll need 40 (well, better 44) cun by the end of act 2. This can be a problem, but not really, since by the end of act 2 your critical chance (with the help of gear, heroic aura and unforgiving chain) will be high enough so that bumping cun can be even preferable.

Also assassin/shadow is better than assassin/duelist, period (don't know about duelist/shadow, I played this only solo and I'm too lazy to replay with the party). You don't really need duelist passives. You definitely don't need evasive maneuvers, since 1) defense doesn't make much of a difference (you kill them before they can touch you, and also archers ignore defense), and 2) your cun will be high anyway. I never felt much need for sure strikes too. You will have high enough dex + heroic aura to keep decent attack rating, and rogues attack fast enough so that missed attack won't do much harm. I can be a nice bonus, sure, but to take duelist just because of that...

On the other hand, with Shadow passives you get +100% critical damage (when obscured). It does make much of a difference.

Although vendetta is truly the "button awesome" of this game.

Modifié par Xalen, 21 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[SuicidalBaby]

20 cun asap
24 dex next
30 cun before deep roads, push the rest into dex until act 2
40 cun asap into act 2
2:1 dex:cun for the next 4 levels
dex till 100% crit
cunning with splashes into con if you want a little more health

[SuicidalBaby]

btw, there is nothing wrong with arelex's guide post patch. at all. makes nightmare feel like normal, just as it did pre-patch.

[Arthur Cousland]

Your damage won't suck if you are the primary lock picker. Dual wield rogues attack insanely fast, even without buffs, and my rogue has been slaughtering everything in sight.  In DA2, it feels like dual wield rogues have an auto-momentum effect on by default.

If you do 1 dex, 2 cun every level, you'll be fine with damage and lock picking ability.

If you happen to have the rogue item pack, the two daggers that auto level don't have any dexterity requirements, so you won't have to be in any great rush to pump dexterity.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 21 août 2011 - 05:03 .

[Mocker22]

As stated DLC gear is probably the best anyways for a rogue.

With your planned group Shadow may be the way to go. It will help increase crit dmg a lot, helps with surviveability some, and most importantly will allow you to setup Aveline for beastly CCCs.

I've done DW rogue/varric/aveline/anders before so that I could keep duelist and still get some good Disorients and rogue utility. Helps some with stats too. On the down side only having 1 mage is rough imo.

[swk3000]

I'll have to consider mixing up my party. My primary concern is that I still need to do the Romance to get the achievement, and Merrill is the companion I like the most. She'll therefore be a fixture in my party at least long enough to max out her approval, at which point she can be safely swapped out without any issues.

I've been liking the Assassin/Shadow idea, so I'll plan on that instead. Especially since I can get more use out of Shadow than Duelist. I'll also have to invest in the Subterfuge tree, but that isn't really a loss. And Subterfuge + Shadow has amazing synergy.

Suicidal: Thanks for the benchmarks. That will really help me out. I wasn't sure what the highest level of trap and chest was in each act, so having things to aim for will be a great help. You've single-handedly answered my biggest concern about the Rogue class in general.

[Xalen]

btw, if you're going shadow, you really should have at least one other rogue to stay obscured. I'd suggest trying out your initial idea of Anders/Varric/Merrill, it is probably the strongest party anyway.

[swk3000]

I'm not against the idea; I'm just concerned that the lack of a Warrior will make things difficult. If I can get away without Aveline, then I'll gladly do so.

[Mocker22]

I dunno if 2 rogues is really neccesary. With a moderate investment in Subterfuge and Shaadow, you'll still be concealed a large part of the time. Being unconcealed for 10 seconds outta 30 isn't a deal breaker. Remember your crit chance/crit dmg will be huge anyways.

I'll give ya that a warrior isn't neccesary but they do bring a lot to the group, and Aveline is no louch at dps, especially when u can set her up for some great disorient CCCS.

[andraip]

You could also go Anders/Varric/Aveline.

As for attribute allocation (just basic, not min-maxing):

-assassins: pump dex until hitting the 100% crit chance, then go cun
-non-assassins: pump dex until you can't add a single point to it (99 dex)

if you are the lockpicker and trap disarmer then pump into cun as suicidal said.

If you are playing DW I would go for Shadow/Duelist, for an Archer I would go Shadow/Assassin

[AreleX]

signature

read the bottom of the post for updates

use anders/merrill/varric

perma obscure + disorienting criticals = roflstomp

[Mocker22]

I've had a couple of more specific rogue questions.

What do you guys consider to be the first few essential abilities?

Also what do you think are the best "high dollar" purchases for rogues.

What's everyone's thoughts on Maker's Kiss? Is it worth the huge cost to have a second elemental option. Any other elemental daggers besides nature or spirirt?

[mr_afk]

- unforgiving chain + explosive strike, twin fangs, lacerate, assassinate/vedetta for spike damage;
passives such as blindside, pinpoint precision and disorientating criticals (and devious harm if possible) for increased damage, and either speed or precision.

I personally think that shadow veil + decoy and stealth are musts but Arelex's build doesn't seem to use them. Been able to obscure yourself (and redirect threat) allows you to spec Varric more for dps or to bring Aveline along and get some stagger CCC action happening.

- four fingered eddie's lucky talisman, puzzle ring of the black fox, robes of unblemished cleanliness (for nature builds). If you don't have legacy it may be beneficial to buy the etched ring of the twins, otherwise using the graven circle works.

- maker's kiss is alright if you use it mainly against spirit weaknesses. the +100% damage means that it does more damage even than other weapons with higher base damages. It also has two rune slots which is handy for a rune of devastation alongside the primeval lyrium rune. but yeah, it's not really that necessary a purchase. And no, there are only nature and spirit daggers.

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 août 2011 - 05:13 .

[AreleX]

maker's kiss and shadow claw combo isn't even fair, throw in beraht's and the low blade and you've got yourself a conductor's pass on the pain train (woo woo etc)

no other elements besides nature and spirit, but that covers both end-game resistances perfectly, you can even rock them comfortably in the dlc.

i advise all of you with questions to simply read my guide, odds are what you want to know is in there.

[ripstrawberry]

“My current plan is to pump DEX to about 42 to equip gear, then boost CUN for crit damage. I also plan on filling out the Assassin tree. I'm torn on my second spec; Shadow has some nice stuff (Pinpoint Precision, Shadow Veil, Disorienting Criticals, Predator), but Duelist has extra crit chance just for being one, passive boosts to Attack and Defense, and Vendetta. And I think I saw words to the effect that Assassin wasn't anywhere near as good anymore.”

I say pump dex so that you have 100% atk vs grunts and 100% crit including buffs, gear and abilities (like unrelenting chain) then about 7 points in mag (to equip robe of unblemished cleanliness and other +x% nature dmg mage gear) then the rest into cun. Shadow is arguably the best rogue spec now and duelist is arguably the worst rogue spec now. I think the choice should be obvious. Predator is crap and a waste of a point. Everything else are must gets. The prereq points (inconspicuous and decoy) are also extremely useful for threat management. Disorienting critical is the main reason to get shadow though because besides the +50% crit dmg you get, you get the best CCC inducer in the game. It adds a lot of dps to your party because your party members can always CCC via assault, scatter, walking bomb, spirit bolt and stonefist. While duelist’s passive boosts to atk and crit% are useful, the bonuses in pinpoint precision alone from shadow outweigh all of those already. The bonus to def is irrelevant. You won’t be tanking anytime soon and def is crap really vs everything else except regular melee attacks. Vendetta is the reason to get duelist, but personally, I don’t think it’s enough reason to drop assassin. Do notice, I said assassin. Shadow should be the 1st pick. Assassinate easily replaces vendetta. You could make up for vendetta’s mobility somewhat by using back to back. Assassin is still excellent for its’ passives and MOD but assassinate is now limited by the stupid dmg cap. This affects archers more though than DW due to the fact that DWs divide their dmg into 2 hits.


“Also, my party. Apparently, a Warrior isn't needed post-patch, so I'm looking at Anders, Merril, and Varric. Is this any good?”

Good. But having a warrior, aveline, in there to replace varric makes it perfect. It gives you a stagger source and another person to take advantage of disorient. The might rally bonus is also nice. The tanking and stun immunity is useful too to keep threat off the other party members. Late in the game or in legacy, do replace merill w/ Bethany so you can get double haste.


“Also Aveline can stagger like a champ and rogues deal a ton of dmg off of staggers. I'd go with duelist over shadow. Between Scoundrel and Stealth trees your fine on agro management and escape tools. Duelist as you said gives great passives, and Vendetta is BEASTLY. Jump way across the battefield and whoop somethin.”


The main reason to pick shadow over duelist is not threat management. It’s the superior dps benefits the spec gives. +100% crit dmg is a lot. Auto-CCCs off disorients for your party is also a lot of dmg added. Do note as well that disorients apply -50% def to the enemies. That’s a whole lot less glacing for your party especially vs bosses. I do agree vendetta is beastly however. I wouldn’t mind trading off assassinate in the assassin tree for vendetta and sure strikes.


“cunning with splashes into con if you want a little more health”


Con is really a waste of points if you know what you’re doing. Maybe for allies w/ stupid AI.


“btw, if you're going shadow, you really should have at least one other rogue to stay obscured. I'd suggest trying out your initial idea of Anders/Varric/Merrill, it is probably the strongest party anyway.”


Not really. Anders/Bethany/Aveline is the strongest party for a rogue Hawke. You can stay obscured often enough by just getting stealth (1 point), decoy (on the way to shadow veil) and invisible friend (2 points). If that’s not enough chameleon’s breath is another low-cost investment (2-3 points). You won’t need another rogue really. Removing Anders/Bethany means a loss of CCC, haste, heroic aura and elemental weapons. Removing Merrill means losing hex of torment and elemental weapons. Removing her for Bethany though for double haste is worth it. Removing aveline means a loss of CCC, upgraded might via rally (this is a lot of dmg in itself by the way for the party and helps your mages focus on damaging attributes because this will keep their mana topped up), a stagger source and a tank. Just spend the points on the talents above.


“If you are playing DW I would go for Shadow/Duelist, for an Archer I would go Shadow/Assassin “


Actually the correct pick every single time unless you want to play around w/ vendetta is S/A.


“perma obscure + disorienting criticals = roflstomp”


Perma-obscure can be achieved without varric later on. Aveline is a better choice really.


“Also what do you think are the best "high dollar" purchases for rogues.”


Robes of unblemished cleaniness. Stealth boots. +attributes and +ability tomes.


“What's everyone's thoughts on Maker's Kiss? Is it worth the huge cost to have a second elemental option. Any other elemental daggers besides nature or spirirt? “


It’s excellent vs spirit weak enemies normally though loses out to nature/physical vs spirit weak enemies in a level 50 game due to improves level up enhancment. I don’t think it’s worth the huge cost really. Personally I think it’s annoying to have multiple gear sets to switch to in many battles. I prefer having 1 main set that my armor and gear complement then a second weapon set I only switch in when an enemy is immune to my primary element. No other elemental daggers.


“I personally think that shadow veil + decoy and stealth are musts but Arelex's build doesn't seem to use them. Been able to obscure yourself (and redirect threat) allows you to spec Varric more for dps or to bring Aveline along and get some stagger CCC action happening.”


I agree. Aveline brings so much to the table to a rogue party. She’s like your toolbox really.

“- maker's kiss is alright if you use it mainly against spirit weaknesses. the +100% damage means that it does more damage even than other weapons with higher base damages. It also has two rune slots which is handy for a rune of devastation alongside the primeval lyrium rune. but yeah, it's not really that necessary a purchase. And no, there are only nature and spirit daggers. “


I think it’s not worth it to waste the primeval lyrium rune on the spirit daggers. They don’t level up w/ you so the bonus is static and low unlike beraht’s revenge w/ low blade and jarvia’s shank w/ hawke’s key. If you’re using the spirit daggers, it’s best to just stick them w/ R.O.D and runes of striking. If you have 100% crit already then runes of spirit is the next best choice.

Modifié par ripstrawberry, 22 août 2011 - 02:36 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Don't worry so much about the small details. If you aren't happy with the build, then just use a maker's sigh. Your build mistakes don't have to be permanent.

Just make your rogue and get to the end of act 1 and assess how you like the build. If you want to try something else, then use a maker's sigh and fix what you aren't happy with.

[AreleX]

aveline is better? how do you figure? like...at all. in any context.

you don't need a tank, you (and your companions) run the risk of getting destroyed if you try to use sns CCCs, you don't need the extra damage that staggers will give you, and her dps is atrocious.

post a vid of you doing a run with aveline instead of varric, and i guarantee that i will do the same run twice as fast with varric.

my build has decoy, and is centered around getting obscured, dropping decoy, and rocking faces. stealth and shadow veil aren't needed

the way you 'spec varric for dps' is give him his insane speed buffs, high dex, and let him go to work with autoattacks. that's what my varric build does

whole lot of misconceptions in this thread, i will be happy to clear them up if people ask

Modifié par AreleX, 22 août 2011 - 06:39 .

[SuicidalBaby]

dude, I've been facepalming this whole read.

[AreleX]

yet when we point these issues out and try to help, we're the bad guys, right?

i dunno what's been going on with the new posters here in the past month or so, but i don't like it.

Modifié par AreleX, 22 août 2011 - 07:46 .

[swk3000]

Sorry about not responding. My sister's computer is out of commission, so she's been using mine. She uses the computer a lot more than I do. And I mean a lot.

Anyway, I've been following AreleX's guide and having a lot of fun. Especially once Anders pops Haste. The sheer attack speed during that time is amazing.

Couple of things.

1. I've been having times where an enemy who should have died takes another 10-20 hits before they actually go down, wasting valuable time. What's going on? This never happened before.

2. I've been using other weapons, but I keep coming back to Beraht's Revenge and Jarvia's Shank. Legacy put me at Level 14 or so before entering the Deep Roads (I wanted to see what the Dagger version of Hawke's Key looked like. The only version I haven't seen is the Longsword). Anyway, the question is: what are good weapons to have near the end of each Act? Or should I just plan on having those equipped throughout the entire game? I plan on restarting to take on the Deep Roads at a more respectable level, but I'd like to know if I can expect to be using those throughout the game.

3. Are there any items I want to make sure to pick up, gear-wise? So far, the only purchases I know for sure are the Etched Ring of the Twins and Dull Brass Amulet. And possibly the Champion Armor Set, for it's large boosts to Crit Chance and Crit Damage. However, I'm not sure how any of that would benefit a DW Rogue.

Also, I've been fine without Aveline. Something that I'm glad for. Anders is too preachy for my tastes, but Merrill and Varric are fun to have around. I really wish there was another mage with access to the Creation school that I could run around with for the entire game. Being forced to lug Anders around is annoying. Still, he does a pretty good job, and I wouldn't break 60% Attack Speed without him, so I'll live.