Alright. I figure that the fewer points I have to devote to boosting Crit Chance, the higher I can pump my Crit Damage. I'll have to fudge it a little bit to be able to equip gear, but beyond that, any points I can save are great. Especially once I pick up Devious Harm.
Rogue Advice
Débuté par
swk3000
, août 21 2011 02:12
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#52
Posté 24 août 2011 - 06:40
thendcomes
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Your crit damage will be sky high as it is. By end game each point of dexterity will be at least 1.75x more valuable than cunning, and that's not including the base damage increase.
It is wasted on Unforgiving chain, but Jack Nader, Arelex, and co. have all said that crit chance should be closer to 100%. I'm not a DW gearing expert, and there are a ton of variables so it gets too complicated for simple math.
If you have the rogue pack 1 (Black Fox's Jerkin, so I guess you do) you should be wearing Jasmine's Cutty Wrap, not Helm of the Champion. And Arms of the Champion are better than Black Fox's Jerkin. As I mentioned before, physical daggers, and physical damage in general, are ****. You should at the very least be able to have either a spirit dagger setup or nature dagger setup, both of which will wreck physical daggers. If so, you'll want to have the bigger spirit or nature boost items in the game, like Poisonwood Locket or Smite for your amulet.
It is wasted on Unforgiving chain, but Jack Nader, Arelex, and co. have all said that crit chance should be closer to 100%. I'm not a DW gearing expert, and there are a ton of variables so it gets too complicated for simple math.
If you have the rogue pack 1 (Black Fox's Jerkin, so I guess you do) you should be wearing Jasmine's Cutty Wrap, not Helm of the Champion. And Arms of the Champion are better than Black Fox's Jerkin. As I mentioned before, physical daggers, and physical damage in general, are ****. You should at the very least be able to have either a spirit dagger setup or nature dagger setup, both of which will wreck physical daggers. If so, you'll want to have the bigger spirit or nature boost items in the game, like Poisonwood Locket or Smite for your amulet.
#53
Posté 24 août 2011 - 07:01
swk3000
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My problem with elemental setups is that, despite their power, you have to have two setups on you, and the gear to support it, and you have to switch in the middle of battle when fighting enemies immune to your primary element. I am far too lazy to switch setups, period, much less in the middle of battle. I'm aware that I'm losing power and damage output by sticking with a physical setup, but I don't have to change sets in the middle of battle.
Personally, I'd love to run around with Shadow's Claw and Maker's Kiss, but don't want to deal with the hassle of switching to a Nature set when facing off against Arcane Horrors, Coterie members, Desire Demons, or Shades. It's a loss in damage, but it's one I'm willing to live with.
Personally, I'd love to run around with Shadow's Claw and Maker's Kiss, but don't want to deal with the hassle of switching to a Nature set when facing off against Arcane Horrors, Coterie members, Desire Demons, or Shades. It's a loss in damage, but it's one I'm willing to live with.
#54
Posté 24 août 2011 - 09:27
playaplayer
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thendcomes I have just the main game with the black emporium dlc. Money's not a problem, because i'm doing the money cheat. Just wanted to know what equipment my hawke should be wearing end game.
#55
Posté 24 août 2011 - 09:43
swk3000
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thendcomes wrote...
I'm not a DW gearing expert, and there are a ton of variables so it gets too complicated for simple math.
#56
Posté 25 août 2011 - 02:18
Darchon_
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I have a partially complete damage calculation spreadsheet for an Archer Rogue. I spent some of my lunch hour and a bit of time after work on it. I took it home to finish it only to find that excel 2003 uses cell validation completely different from excel 2010, so instead of finishing it I fixed it.
The features I am missing:
- Runes
- Talents (should be simple after the damage calcs are complete)
- Full list of the best rogue gear (need more +% physical gear)
- Damage calculation that handles switching between fire and physical in one cell (right now there are 2 separate calcs)
- How do I account for the +27 fire damage of Jackal's or +27 Nature Damage of Absolution? Does it go in before or after the +%fire modifier?
Interesting things discovered:
- It's best to keep your critical chance EXACTLY at 100%. Any points added in Dex after 100% would be better spent as Cun. (this is assuming you have the Devious Harm assassin talent)
- Eddie's Lucky Talisman seems to be so very close to Dura's Amulet, it's hard to say which is actually better.
- Physical bows just don't compare at all to elemental bows... even if they get a higher base damage, they still fall short because of sheer availability of +%Fire gear
- Etched Ring of the Twins is actually worse than a +3% physical damage ring if you juggle your dexterity and cunning to keep 100% crit chance. (for physical bows of course)
I'll work on this some more tomorrow, and then I'll upload it so theendcomes can go over the sheet and point out any problems.
The features I am missing:
- Runes
- Talents (should be simple after the damage calcs are complete)
- Full list of the best rogue gear (need more +% physical gear)
- Damage calculation that handles switching between fire and physical in one cell (right now there are 2 separate calcs)
- How do I account for the +27 fire damage of Jackal's or +27 Nature Damage of Absolution? Does it go in before or after the +%fire modifier?
Interesting things discovered:
- It's best to keep your critical chance EXACTLY at 100%. Any points added in Dex after 100% would be better spent as Cun. (this is assuming you have the Devious Harm assassin talent)
- Eddie's Lucky Talisman seems to be so very close to Dura's Amulet, it's hard to say which is actually better.
- Physical bows just don't compare at all to elemental bows... even if they get a higher base damage, they still fall short because of sheer availability of +%Fire gear
- Etched Ring of the Twins is actually worse than a +3% physical damage ring if you juggle your dexterity and cunning to keep 100% crit chance. (for physical bows of course)
I'll work on this some more tomorrow, and then I'll upload it so theendcomes can go over the sheet and point out any problems.
#57
Posté 25 août 2011 - 02:19
thendcomes
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Well without Exiled Prince you lose access to the Low Blade and without Rogue Pack 1 you miss out on Beraht's Revenge, so nature is out. Shadow's Claw and the Maker's Kiss are probably your best bet, but without Legacy you don't have too many good gearing options to up your spirit damage. Robes of UC don't affect spirit either. All the big crit items that people have mentioned are likely your best bet. The Maker's Kiss is underpowered so you might be better off with Finesse. I'd stay away from the Carta Weapons just because they don't have rune slots for Rune of Devastation + Primeval Lyrium Rune.
#58
Posté 25 août 2011 - 02:23
thendcomes
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Darchon, did you start your own sheet or base it off mine? I was planning on doing it once I got time but looks like you saved me the trouble!
The +damage modifiers all come in at the end, right before enemy weaknesses are factored in. So it's unmodified by any bonuses.
I'd say Dura's is better because it's free :-) For 110g, Eddie's would have to be significantly better to be worth it.
The +damage modifiers all come in at the end, right before enemy weaknesses are factored in. So it's unmodified by any bonuses.
I'd say Dura's is better because it's free :-) For 110g, Eddie's would have to be significantly better to be worth it.
#59
Posté 25 août 2011 - 07:23
ripstrawberry
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“2. at the end of any given act, the strongest PHYSICAL damage daggers you will have access to are the randomly generated masterwork dwarven daggers sold at korval's blades in hightown. reload the area until you find a good pair.”
While this might be true for the earlier acts, I doubt if this is true at the end of act 3 wherein you will have access to the best physical daggers, high leveled improves with level up daggers and a hawke’s key that you can obtain at a very high level. Those daggers you mentioned also don’t have rune slots which you can use to take advantage of runes of devastation, runes of striking and primeval lyrium rune.
“3. stealth boots for sure, puzzle ring of the black fox maybe, seven deadly cinch, *i* am partial to the shadow's claw/maker's kiss combo, and think it's very powerful, others (read: mr afk) disagree. see if you can get ahold of thendcomes, i remember him breaking down what the best rogue accessory purchases are somewhere, but the one thing i will tell you for sure is stealth boots. non-negotiable! they are awesome.”
With the new item pack that shadow’s claw/maker’s kiss combo becomes bard’s honor/shadow’s claw.
“By 'reload the area', can I just leave (for example, to Hawke's Manor), then come back, or do I have to save and reload?”
Just go into an area that gives you a loading screen then come back.
“What gear is best for the fire bows (Jackals/Hoods)? I will get the stealth boots. I only really have enough gold for 2 other major purchases. My choices are Eddie's Lucky Talisman, Ring of the Black Fox, Ring of the Ferryman, and Etched Ring of the Twins. I'm not that interested in getting the RoUB because I don't want to waste my points on Magic.”
It really depends on your current stats so you might need to use a calculator/excel. Other worthwhile items are graven circle, generic +x% fire dmg gloves/helmets/belts, eyes of blue, jasmine’s cutty wrap, the item pack 2 higher level chest armor, gloves of the champion and 7 deadly cinch. Hood>Jackal. You don’t really need to waste a lot of points into mag. You can get away w/ investing 5~6 points into it given the wealth of pre-buff items rogues have access to: bard’s honor, circlet of the dreamer, black fox’s jerkin w/ rune of valiance, freeman’s gauntlets, stealth boots, dull brass amulet, ring of the ferryman, twisted steel circle and enchanted silverite belt. No need to put points into will as well.
“I expect to have 100% crit chance some time in act 2 so really the crit damage boosting items seems better. On the other hand... if I get the assassin talent that boosts crit damage, I can use the crit chance items to allow me to transfer more points into cunning... which leaves me with less dexterity so a lower base damage which is bad.”
Again to get the correct answer you’d have to use a calculator/excel.
“It's not an easy problem to solve since there are so many variables. Mage and Warrior are so much easier to understand.”
Personally, I find rogues to be the easiest because you only concern yourself w/ base dmg, crit%, crit dmg and elemental dmg. Mages have to concern themselves w/ those (much wider elemental dmg scale due to multiple elements) and casting power (+mana, +hp, +con, +will or BM items). Warriors have the same concerns as rogues + will, +stamina and +stamina regen (if you’re a berserker) as well.
“2. you do *not* need staggers as another source of damage, nor is it going to speed up your runs any. you aren't going to be getting cleave staggers to stick nearly as much post-patch, and your only 100% reliable means of doing so is shield bash. shield bash is only guaranteed on one enemy, which is probably going to be an elite +. an elite + you could kill even faster by simply going brittle -> assassinate, since you don't have to wait for aveline to waddle over and paint the target with the skill.”
It’s not needed yes, but it is quite handy to have, even post-patch.
“staggers as a WHOLE were absolutely ruined in the patch. from decreased proc rate to the decreased damage on stagger CCCs. lacerate, you say? again, why not just brittle -> assassinate the thing? or, brittle -> twin fangs -> assassinate? additionally, aveline does not have the wide arc of a 2h warrior, so even if she DOES proc a stagger, and your mage CAN hit the chain lightning, it's only going to be on one or two targets, and for half the damage of pre-patch.”
I didn’t mean lacerate proccing of staggers as an “either/or” . It’s meant to be an “in addition to” your usual tools of brittle->assassinate and twin fangs. Again, it’s something nice to have for sturdy enemies.
“3. if you are needing stamina draughts on pc rogue hawke, you are doing it wrong. rally sharing muscle you can maaaaybe make a case for, but you must take into account that it isn't going to let you do anything you couldn't before. lieutenants and bosses still have damage caps. your party does get a momentary boost across the board from rally, but when it runs out, you're back to having aveline contributing next to nothing, instead of varric's consistently high personal dps.”
My bad on that one. I meant lyrium potions quaffing for the mages. I don’t know how your aveline contributes next to nothing though because my aveline contributes decent dps but again that’s because I specced her for dps and she has the different elemental weapons at her disposal.
“you can make a case for her being pretty good, that's fine. i might even agree with you. to make declarative statements like 'the best party for rogue hawke is such and such and aveline' and 'aveline is better than varric' is just flat-out wrong, though. i get where you're coming from, but this is something that's been discussed and tested over and over and over since the game came out. the only thing you really have a case for is rally, and that's one ability, over an entire character.”
Since I can’t upload videos for comparison to properly disagree with that, I’ll just revise my earlier statement to “aveline makes a great alternative for varric, especially when she’s built for dps and has access to the different elemental weapons.” I didn’t say however that aveline>varric. I said aveline is better compliments that party than varric and brings more things to the table than brand and dps.
“1. Aveline, Varric, Hawke(archer), Bethany (for end game), Merrill
2. Anders, Varric, Hawke(archer), Bethany (for end game) , Merrill”
Since, I’m a proponent for Aveline over Varric I’d go w/ Aveline, Anders and Merrill (Bethany later on).
“In the standard rogue hawke, anders, merrill and varric setup you don't have a designed threat magnet besides your decoy and your dog. This means that threat management will be a bit of an issue (there's not much you can do even with armistice and goad as you can't really afford to have enemies targeting any of your companions) and that the hordes of enemies drawn towards hawke (due to massive dps threat generation) which will kill the blindside bonus.”
Agreed. That’s another one of the reasons as to why I bring Aveline.
“However, it is also true that even a dps Aveline build won't be quite as powerful as Varric (unless you can safely trigger disorient CCCs). This means that the glassier and more 'powerful' setup will generally be Varric (unless elemental weaknesses are factored in). As the issue of threat management is very rarely a problem I would agree that the standard Varric setup will be more effective in general.”
As I’ve mentioned in my post, my assertion was for a non-nightmare/non-archer run. Of course on nightmare and using DW hawke, varric is better and warriors are crap. I factored elemental weakness in.
“unless your haste is bugged, keeping anders and bethany in your party is a must for the most powerful setup. Nothing beats dual haste.”
Agreed. Haste is bugged on non-nightmare difficulty levels to the way it was pre-patch.
“thendcomes what should final gear look like if you don't have dlc? What daggers is the best in act 3? Also if you do the money glitch, and money not a problem. What should you buy?”
Assuming you’re in the endgame, do the GG and you have all the dlc you’re best dagger combos are:
1. Beraht’s revenge/The low-blade
2. Bard’s honor/Shadow’s claw
3. Jarvia’s shank/The Hawke’s key
While this might be true for the earlier acts, I doubt if this is true at the end of act 3 wherein you will have access to the best physical daggers, high leveled improves with level up daggers and a hawke’s key that you can obtain at a very high level. Those daggers you mentioned also don’t have rune slots which you can use to take advantage of runes of devastation, runes of striking and primeval lyrium rune.
“3. stealth boots for sure, puzzle ring of the black fox maybe, seven deadly cinch, *i* am partial to the shadow's claw/maker's kiss combo, and think it's very powerful, others (read: mr afk) disagree. see if you can get ahold of thendcomes, i remember him breaking down what the best rogue accessory purchases are somewhere, but the one thing i will tell you for sure is stealth boots. non-negotiable! they are awesome.”
With the new item pack that shadow’s claw/maker’s kiss combo becomes bard’s honor/shadow’s claw.
“By 'reload the area', can I just leave (for example, to Hawke's Manor), then come back, or do I have to save and reload?”
Just go into an area that gives you a loading screen then come back.
“What gear is best for the fire bows (Jackals/Hoods)? I will get the stealth boots. I only really have enough gold for 2 other major purchases. My choices are Eddie's Lucky Talisman, Ring of the Black Fox, Ring of the Ferryman, and Etched Ring of the Twins. I'm not that interested in getting the RoUB because I don't want to waste my points on Magic.”
It really depends on your current stats so you might need to use a calculator/excel. Other worthwhile items are graven circle, generic +x% fire dmg gloves/helmets/belts, eyes of blue, jasmine’s cutty wrap, the item pack 2 higher level chest armor, gloves of the champion and 7 deadly cinch. Hood>Jackal. You don’t really need to waste a lot of points into mag. You can get away w/ investing 5~6 points into it given the wealth of pre-buff items rogues have access to: bard’s honor, circlet of the dreamer, black fox’s jerkin w/ rune of valiance, freeman’s gauntlets, stealth boots, dull brass amulet, ring of the ferryman, twisted steel circle and enchanted silverite belt. No need to put points into will as well.
“I expect to have 100% crit chance some time in act 2 so really the crit damage boosting items seems better. On the other hand... if I get the assassin talent that boosts crit damage, I can use the crit chance items to allow me to transfer more points into cunning... which leaves me with less dexterity so a lower base damage which is bad.”
Again to get the correct answer you’d have to use a calculator/excel.
“It's not an easy problem to solve since there are so many variables. Mage and Warrior are so much easier to understand.”
Personally, I find rogues to be the easiest because you only concern yourself w/ base dmg, crit%, crit dmg and elemental dmg. Mages have to concern themselves w/ those (much wider elemental dmg scale due to multiple elements) and casting power (+mana, +hp, +con, +will or BM items). Warriors have the same concerns as rogues + will, +stamina and +stamina regen (if you’re a berserker) as well.
“2. you do *not* need staggers as another source of damage, nor is it going to speed up your runs any. you aren't going to be getting cleave staggers to stick nearly as much post-patch, and your only 100% reliable means of doing so is shield bash. shield bash is only guaranteed on one enemy, which is probably going to be an elite +. an elite + you could kill even faster by simply going brittle -> assassinate, since you don't have to wait for aveline to waddle over and paint the target with the skill.”
It’s not needed yes, but it is quite handy to have, even post-patch.
“staggers as a WHOLE were absolutely ruined in the patch. from decreased proc rate to the decreased damage on stagger CCCs. lacerate, you say? again, why not just brittle -> assassinate the thing? or, brittle -> twin fangs -> assassinate? additionally, aveline does not have the wide arc of a 2h warrior, so even if she DOES proc a stagger, and your mage CAN hit the chain lightning, it's only going to be on one or two targets, and for half the damage of pre-patch.”
I didn’t mean lacerate proccing of staggers as an “either/or” . It’s meant to be an “in addition to” your usual tools of brittle->assassinate and twin fangs. Again, it’s something nice to have for sturdy enemies.
“3. if you are needing stamina draughts on pc rogue hawke, you are doing it wrong. rally sharing muscle you can maaaaybe make a case for, but you must take into account that it isn't going to let you do anything you couldn't before. lieutenants and bosses still have damage caps. your party does get a momentary boost across the board from rally, but when it runs out, you're back to having aveline contributing next to nothing, instead of varric's consistently high personal dps.”
My bad on that one. I meant lyrium potions quaffing for the mages. I don’t know how your aveline contributes next to nothing though because my aveline contributes decent dps but again that’s because I specced her for dps and she has the different elemental weapons at her disposal.
“you can make a case for her being pretty good, that's fine. i might even agree with you. to make declarative statements like 'the best party for rogue hawke is such and such and aveline' and 'aveline is better than varric' is just flat-out wrong, though. i get where you're coming from, but this is something that's been discussed and tested over and over and over since the game came out. the only thing you really have a case for is rally, and that's one ability, over an entire character.”
Since I can’t upload videos for comparison to properly disagree with that, I’ll just revise my earlier statement to “aveline makes a great alternative for varric, especially when she’s built for dps and has access to the different elemental weapons.” I didn’t say however that aveline>varric. I said aveline is better compliments that party than varric and brings more things to the table than brand and dps.
“1. Aveline, Varric, Hawke(archer), Bethany (for end game), Merrill
2. Anders, Varric, Hawke(archer), Bethany (for end game) , Merrill”
Since, I’m a proponent for Aveline over Varric I’d go w/ Aveline, Anders and Merrill (Bethany later on).
“In the standard rogue hawke, anders, merrill and varric setup you don't have a designed threat magnet besides your decoy and your dog. This means that threat management will be a bit of an issue (there's not much you can do even with armistice and goad as you can't really afford to have enemies targeting any of your companions) and that the hordes of enemies drawn towards hawke (due to massive dps threat generation) which will kill the blindside bonus.”
Agreed. That’s another one of the reasons as to why I bring Aveline.
“However, it is also true that even a dps Aveline build won't be quite as powerful as Varric (unless you can safely trigger disorient CCCs). This means that the glassier and more 'powerful' setup will generally be Varric (unless elemental weaknesses are factored in). As the issue of threat management is very rarely a problem I would agree that the standard Varric setup will be more effective in general.”
As I’ve mentioned in my post, my assertion was for a non-nightmare/non-archer run. Of course on nightmare and using DW hawke, varric is better and warriors are crap. I factored elemental weakness in.
“unless your haste is bugged, keeping anders and bethany in your party is a must for the most powerful setup. Nothing beats dual haste.”
Agreed. Haste is bugged on non-nightmare difficulty levels to the way it was pre-patch.
“thendcomes what should final gear look like if you don't have dlc? What daggers is the best in act 3? Also if you do the money glitch, and money not a problem. What should you buy?”
Assuming you’re in the endgame, do the GG and you have all the dlc you’re best dagger combos are:
1. Beraht’s revenge/The low-blade
2. Bard’s honor/Shadow’s claw
3. Jarvia’s shank/The Hawke’s key
#60
Posté 25 août 2011 - 07:59
ripstrawberry
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“My problem with elemental setups is that, despite their power, you have to have two setups on you, and the gear to support it, and you have to switch in the middle of battle when fighting enemies immune to your primary element. I am far too lazy to switch setups, period, much less in the middle of battle. I'm aware that I'm losing power and damage output by sticking with a physical setup, but I don't have to change sets in the middle of battle.”
I hate the fact that we don’t have a weapon swap button too. What I do is still go elemental: nature or spirit then just pause then just switch in the 2nd weapon set when I encounter an enemy that’s immune. I don’t have a second set of gear specifically just for the 2nd set to equip so that saves me some time.
“- How do I account for the +27 fire damage of Jackal's or +27 Nature Damage of Absolution? Does it go in before or after the +%fire modifier?”
I have a rogue and warrior excel dps calc too. The on-hit dmg is calculated after everything else except attack speed. So for your question it’s after the +x% fire modifier to your average crit dmg.
I hate the fact that we don’t have a weapon swap button too. What I do is still go elemental: nature or spirit then just pause then just switch in the 2nd weapon set when I encounter an enemy that’s immune. I don’t have a second set of gear specifically just for the 2nd set to equip so that saves me some time.
“- How do I account for the +27 fire damage of Jackal's or +27 Nature Damage of Absolution? Does it go in before or after the +%fire modifier?”
I have a rogue and warrior excel dps calc too. The on-hit dmg is calculated after everything else except attack speed. So for your question it’s after the +x% fire modifier to your average crit dmg.
#61
Posté 25 août 2011 - 03:11
thendcomes
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Oh I missed this. The game autosaves when you enter a new area, so you don't need to run back. Just reload and you'll appear in the zone again with the vendors refreshed.swk3000 wrote...
By 'reload the area', can I just leave (for example, to Hawke's Manor), then come back, or do I have to save and reload?
#62
Posté 25 août 2011 - 10:27
Darchon_
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thendcomes wrote...
Darchon, did you start your own sheet or base it off mine? I was planning on doing it once I got time but looks like you saved me the trouble!
The +damage modifiers all come in at the end, right before enemy weaknesses are factored in. So it's unmodified by any bonuses.
I'd say Dura's is better because it's free :-) For 110g, Eddie's would have to be significantly better to be worth it.
I made my own so I could work on understanding the formulae better. Also, I wanted to do the attribute point allocation completely differently than you did. I'm prolly not going to get a chance to work on the sheet again until the weekend. If you're going to have time before then I can upload it to give you something to start with.
#63
Posté 26 août 2011 - 02:33
thendcomes
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I can wait until you finish. I have a busy weekend and a hurricane coming through, so I might not get to it anyway. I think the peer review might be to just update the items and abilities on mine and see if ours match. They should. If not, at least one of ours is wrong.
#64
Posté 26 août 2011 - 10:23
swk3000
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I have another question: how would I go about pulling an Assassin out of Stealth? I have no AoE attacks, and Rush doesn't work reliably, so I need some way to kick an assassin out of stealth so I can kill him. Any ideas?
#65
Posté 26 août 2011 - 11:08
Elhanan
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swk3000 wrote...
I have another question: how would I go about pulling an Assassin out of Stealth? I have no AoE attacks, and Rush doesn't work reliably, so I need some way to kick an assassin out of stealth so I can kill him. Any ideas?
Grenades perhaps? I have not used them except for the Raise Dead model, but they might work.
The Assassin and etc link in mr_afk sig has some great tips for all classes; may be helpful if you are running with a party.
Modifié par Elhanan, 26 août 2011 - 11:13 .
#66
Posté 27 août 2011 - 02:11
mr_afk
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Aww thanks Elhanan. Glad you found it useful (even though assassins are feeble little.. flowers post patch).
@swk3000 - You can check out my signature as I can't be bothered going through all the possibilities (you could switch to a companion and use their destealthing abilities) but here are all the things you can do while retaining of control hawke (and all you should need):
I also found rush to be rather unreliable too.The best and most reliable thing for a rogue is to use decoy. Dump a decoy in an assassin's face/around where it stealthed and it will automatically stab it. Otherwise dropping a dog works quite well, especially in conjunction with stealth. Grenades will work, but they have a long cooldown (and won't work against rage demons).
Funnily enough, you can actually dump miasmic flasks on them to stun them (which when coupled with running away helps to use up all their time in stealth) or use confusion on some nearby enemies. Assassins seem to stab the nearest enemy (not the one with most threat), so confusion is awesome for watching the assassin stab his friend (confusion and stealth if the assassin is too near).
I think the emphasis however should be placed on killing the assassins before they stealth/straight after they're out of stealth. Unlike mages, rogues have less destealthing abilities and can't tank stabs quite as well as warriors. Unless you can position the dog between you (and your party) and the assassin it'll be hard to avoid getting stabbed if you don't kill them from the outset.
Rogues have an advantage there in that one brittle/stagger+assassinate/vendetta/twin fangs/explosive strike will take them down really fast. Decoy and autoattacks also works reasonably well. But yeah, crowd-control (winter's grasp/petrify) and spike damage from the very beginning works wonders. Not quite as fun as just tanking the stab and using a sacrificial frenzied assault but it gets the job done.
@swk3000 - You can check out my signature as I can't be bothered going through all the possibilities (you could switch to a companion and use their destealthing abilities) but here are all the things you can do while retaining of control hawke (and all you should need):
I also found rush to be rather unreliable too.The best and most reliable thing for a rogue is to use decoy. Dump a decoy in an assassin's face/around where it stealthed and it will automatically stab it. Otherwise dropping a dog works quite well, especially in conjunction with stealth. Grenades will work, but they have a long cooldown (and won't work against rage demons).
Funnily enough, you can actually dump miasmic flasks on them to stun them (which when coupled with running away helps to use up all their time in stealth) or use confusion on some nearby enemies. Assassins seem to stab the nearest enemy (not the one with most threat), so confusion is awesome for watching the assassin stab his friend (confusion and stealth if the assassin is too near).
I think the emphasis however should be placed on killing the assassins before they stealth/straight after they're out of stealth. Unlike mages, rogues have less destealthing abilities and can't tank stabs quite as well as warriors. Unless you can position the dog between you (and your party) and the assassin it'll be hard to avoid getting stabbed if you don't kill them from the outset.
Rogues have an advantage there in that one brittle/stagger+assassinate/vendetta/twin fangs/explosive strike will take them down really fast. Decoy and autoattacks also works reasonably well. But yeah, crowd-control (winter's grasp/petrify) and spike damage from the very beginning works wonders. Not quite as fun as just tanking the stab and using a sacrificial frenzied assault but it gets the job done.
Modifié par mr_afk, 27 août 2011 - 02:16 .
#67
Posté 27 août 2011 - 02:33
AreleX
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dropping a dog/decoy when an assassin is stealthed guarantees a redirected backstab
#68
Posté 27 août 2011 - 04:36
swk3000
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I don't have Decoy yet, so I'll give the Dog a try. I'd love to focus-fire the Assassins down before they stealth, but I don't have Assassinate yet, so all I really have is Twin Fangs. I also technically have Explosive Strike, but that relies on having basic attacks chained to get any damage done, and time spent doing basic attacks is time the Assassin can use to Stealth.
In addition, there's the issue of setting up tactics so that Merrill and Anders use Petrify on Assassins, and do so reliably. So far, they seem to randomly go after any enemy with a longer health bar, not the Assassins.
In addition, there's the issue of setting up tactics so that Merrill and Anders use Petrify on Assassins, and do so reliably. So far, they seem to randomly go after any enemy with a longer health bar, not the Assassins.
#69
Posté 27 août 2011 - 04:44
mr_afk
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enemy: elite or higher: winter's grasp/petrify
works like a charm. you'll have to make sure it's high enough in tactics order so it triggers properly.
the only issue is perhaps when there are more than one assassins and your companions target the same one, although I haven't noticed much of a problem in this regards.
works like a charm. you'll have to make sure it's high enough in tactics order so it triggers properly.
the only issue is perhaps when there are more than one assassins and your companions target the same one, although I haven't noticed much of a problem in this regards.
Modifié par mr_afk, 27 août 2011 - 04:53 .
#70
Posté 27 août 2011 - 04:55
swk3000
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Alright. I'm currently using the tactics list that AreleX has listed, and I've never noticed an Assassin getting Petrified. I'll try pushing them a little higher on the list and see if that makes a difference.
@AreleX: I recently read through your Assassin/Shadow Archer thread, and if I've caused you (or anyone else) annoyance, I apologize. I simply like to make sure I'm doing everything the best way I can. Unfortunately, while I could (and do) experiment, I'm doing so casually, and on a console, so I tend to assume that my experience is subjective. If I've caused offense or annoyance to anyone, I want to apologize, as that wasn't my intention.
@AreleX: I recently read through your Assassin/Shadow Archer thread, and if I've caused you (or anyone else) annoyance, I apologize. I simply like to make sure I'm doing everything the best way I can. Unfortunately, while I could (and do) experiment, I'm doing so casually, and on a console, so I tend to assume that my experience is subjective. If I've caused offense or annoyance to anyone, I want to apologize, as that wasn't my intention.
#71
Posté 27 août 2011 - 04:59
AreleX
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oh no buddy, it wasn't you at all, we're cool
like i said, if someone comes to me and genuinely wants to learn, i'll do everything i can to help them. it's the people who do nothing but complain and demand things of me that i don't like, and you've done nothing of the sort.
i'm on console too. no excuses! *we* are the master race!
like i said, if someone comes to me and genuinely wants to learn, i'll do everything i can to help them. it's the people who do nothing but complain and demand things of me that i don't like, and you've done nothing of the sort.
i'm on console too. no excuses! *we* are the master race!
#72
Posté 27 août 2011 - 05:01
AreleX
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also, try clearing your brittle tactic lines and resetting them. i remember pre-patch, there were issues if you dragged a tactic between them, or switched them around, that made the enemy targeting mess up.
#73
Posté 27 août 2011 - 01:07
swk3000
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Glad to know I'm not offending anybody. Also, I have yet another question. How has the Rogue Pack 2 affected best end-game equipment? Or has it? I can see the Arms of Mac Tir being pretty good (+13% Crit Chance, +16% Crit Damage), and the Path of the Wilds boots, while not carrying the incredible +21% Crit Damage of the Stealth Boots, do have a higher Crit Chance and Immunity to Stun.
I'm sorry for all the questions; as I said, I want to be as effective as possible, and would prefer to get outside input to make sure I'm not failing to see something.
I'm sorry for all the questions; as I said, I want to be as effective as possible, and would prefer to get outside input to make sure I'm not failing to see something.
#74
Posté 27 août 2011 - 02:01
Relix28
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swk3000 wrote...
Glad to know I'm not offending anybody. Also, I have yet another question. How has the Rogue Pack 2 affected best end-game equipment? Or has it? I can see the Arms of Mac Tir being pretty good (+13% Crit Chance, +16% Crit Damage), and the Path of the Wilds boots, while not carrying the incredible +21% Crit Damage of the Stealth Boots, do have a higher Crit Chance and Immunity to Stun.
I'm sorry for all the questions; as I said, I want to be as effective as possible, and would prefer to get outside input to make sure I'm not failing to see something.
As of right now, the best rogue armor pieces are:
Helmet: Jasmine Cutty's Wrap (item pack 1)
Chestpiece: Arms of Mac Tir
Gloves: Gloves of the Champion
Boots: Stealth Boots
Path of the Wilds are a pretty decent pair of boots, but they are nowhere near as good as Stealth Boots. They are better than Boots of the Champion though.
I guess Immunity to stun could be useful for fighting enemies like High Dragon, where stun is guaranteed, if you are fighting in close combat. But other than that, Steath Boots are still the way to go.
Modifié par Relix28, 27 août 2011 - 02:05 .
#75
Posté 27 août 2011 - 02:13
swk3000
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That's actually about what I figured. Just wanted to confirm.
I appreciate everyone being patient with me, and for all the help you've given. I think I've got a pretty good handle on the Rogue class now. I won't guarantee there won't be any other questions, but I think I'll be okay for the most part. Thanks for all the help.
I appreciate everyone being patient with me, and for all the help you've given. I think I've got a pretty good handle on the Rogue class now. I won't guarantee there won't be any other questions, but I think I'll be okay for the most part. Thanks for all the help.
