250 réponses à ce sujet

[Urzon]

Poor old mother? The whole story of Hawkes involvement in the Plot of Dragon Age 2 and all the **** that happens to the family is Leandras fault to begin with.
Going to the main power hub of the Templars in the Free Marches with an apostate kid and staying there even when it's clear that you'll have to sell your kids into one year of servitude just to live in poverty was one hell of a plan. She strikes me as incredibly selfish. All she thinks about is getting her title and manor back, which will do nothing to protect her mage kids.

And if I remember correctly after they fled Kirkwall the last time they settled in Lothering after some years, where they lived for ten years without any templar even taking notice of them. Without a phylactery the templars are just as screwed as everybody else who is searching someone in the middle ages.

Yes, how dare Lenadra for wanting to go to a safe and familar place after the death of her husband, and the destruction of the only life she has known for the last 25 years. A place where she can use her families money and influcene to protect her family from harm, after all that they suffered. Only to find out when they get there, that her brother has gambled away all the family fortune and her childhood home.

Having spent all the money they could gather, before fleeing the Blight, on the ship to Kirkwall; they are forced to work for either a mercenary or smuggler group (since they have no money to buy a place on a ship to other city).

Templars can still track mages without a phylactery. They do still have eyes, ears, and a brain still. I'm sure there are templars trained for that incase they have to track apostates that have never been part of  the Circle. The Fereldren templar were able to track Jowen just fine without his phylactery. If it wasn't for Loghain saving him to use him against Redcliff, he would have been made tranquil right have the mage warden origins.

[LobselVith8]

Urzon wrote...

Yes, how dare Lenadra for wanting to go to a safe and familar place after the death of her husband, and the destruction of the only life she has known for the last 25 years.

Her daughter Bethany is a mage, and she's asking her family to go into the heart of the seat of templar power over eastern Thedas.

Urzon wrote...

A place where she can use her families money and influcene to protect her family from harm, after all that they suffered. Only to find out when they get there, that her brother has gambled away all the family fortune and her childhood home.

If Arl Eamon wasn't able to protect his son Connor from the Circle of Ferelden, I don't see why Leandra thought she could protect Bethany.

Urzon wrote...

Having spent all the money they could gather, before fleeing the Blight, on the ship to Kirkwall; they are forced to work for either a mercenary or smuggler group (since they have no money to buy a place on a ship to other city).

Actually, Hawke recommends going elsewhere when Gamlen makes it clear that the Amell family is in shambles, which I actually commend Hawke on.

Urzon wrote...

Templars can still track mages without a phylactery. They do still have eyes, ears, and a brain still.

I take it you never saw the scene where Hawke warns Cullen about Anders' plot against the Chantry, and Cullen does nothing, even with Anders standing right next to Hawke?

Urzon wrote...

I'm sure there are templars trained for that incase they have to track apostates that have never been part of  the Circle. The Fereldren templar were able to track Jowen just fine without his phylactery. If it wasn't for Loghain saving him to use him against Redcliff, he would have been made tranquil right have the mage warden origins.

Yet the Hawke family has been able to elude the templars for many years, and Hawke is a capable fighter.

[Nerevar-as]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Urzon wrote...

A place where she can use her families money and influcene to protect her family from harm, after all that they suffered. Only to find out when they get there, that her brother has gambled away all the family fortune and her childhood home.

If Arl Eamon wasn't able to protect his son Connor from the Circle of Ferelden, I don't see why Leandra thought she could protect Bethany.

THIS. So much this. We know Eamon, who was probalby the 3rd most powerful person in Ferelden couldn´t prevent Connor taken to the Circle, and must believe money or a position would be of help in much worse Kirkwall. Good writing there.<_<

[whykikyouwhy]

Was the incident with the Arl and Connor common knowledge in Fereldan? I never got the impression that the details were released beyond his household. So that wouldn't be something that *Leandra* would be aware of - that would be something that the player knows.

Leandra might be thinking very much like many a parent would - this is my child and it is *my* responsibility to try to protect her. Whether or not it's in her power to do so should not be the issue (no parent is omnipotent) - Leandra's gut instinct would be to protect, and Kirkwall, while not mage-friendly, had resources for the family. And upon finding those resources tapped out, it's Bethany, I believe, who tells Hawke "no more running." The family needed to take root somewhere, and they thought they could rebuild, if even just enough to be in a better position to defend themselves.

[maxernst]

Nerevar-as wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Urzon wrote...

A place where she can use her families money and influcene to protect her family from harm, after all that they suffered. Only to find out when they get there, that her brother has gambled away all the family fortune and her childhood home.

If Arl Eamon wasn't able to protect his son Connor from the Circle of Ferelden, I don't see why Leandra thought she could protect Bethany.

THIS. So much this. We know Eamon, who was probalby the 3rd most powerful person in Ferelden couldn´t prevent Connor taken to the Circle, and must believe money or a position would be of help in much worse Kirkwall. Good writing there.<_<

Couldn't or wouldn't?  I rather suspect he could, in the sense that the Templars would probably not choose to try and take Connor by force.  But it would be politically very, very difficult, as the chantry would likely foment a rebellion against him.  Even if his knights remained loyal to him (and they might not), it would be seen as an opportunity to rivals with claims on his holdings to push them.  Eamon's position is more important to him than his son's freedom.  Not all Hawkes may be okay with trading their sister's freedom in order to remain in Kirkwall.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Arl Eamon wasn't able to protect his son Connor from the Circle of Ferelden, I don't see why Leandra thought she could protect Bethany.

Gascard Dupuis extracting an apology from Meredith shows that status and connections can be used to make the Templars back down.  Can't see it working if they've got actual evidence, though

(I have a theory that Meredith was actually less vigorous in chasing well connected apostates than other Knight Commanders, because of her political entanglements.  The obvious example being her tolerance of Hawke's status as an open Apostate for 3 years.)

[Xilizhra]

The templars have more sheer power in Kirkwall, but they're also heavily unpopular and walk on a bit of a knife edge. Most of the apostates they go after don't have much in the way of powerful friends, but if they did take someone who did, it could prove problematic and possibly more trouble than it's worth; rebellion would be a very real possibility, and Meredith isn't secure enough to ignore that kind of thing until Act 3 when she takes over completely. And even then, a mage Hawke is far too popular.

[Urzon]

If Arl Eamon wasn't able to protect his son Connor from the Circle of Ferelden, I don't see why Leandra thought she could protect Bethany.

Arl Eamon is a good and lawful man. That always did what was good for the people and the law. I'm sure he felt bad for having to send Conner away to the Circle, but it was the right thing to do. Even more so since, he was possessed by a demon for awhile. Plus, it would be very hard to hide that Conner was a mage if you asked for the Circle's help in the matter.

Actually, Hawke recommends going elsewhere when Gamlen makes it clear that the Amell family is in shambles, which I actually commend Hawke on.

Since they were unable to enter the city because they didn't have the money for a bribe, the only way to leave the Gallows is by ship. So unless Hawke could gather together enough money to pay for another trip by boat, I'm guessing he was expecting everyone one else to swim?

I take it you never saw the scene where Hawke warns Cullen about Anders' plot against the Chantry, and Cullen does nothing, even with Anders standing right next to Hawke?

Bad writing leading leading to a brain dead Cullen, doesn't take away from the fact that some templar are ruthlessly cunning. Which you pointed out plenty of times in many other threads, and said cunning templar make it there job of catching run away mages.

Yet the Hawke family has been able to elude the templars for many years, and Hawke is a capable fighter.

Do you know for sure that the templar were actively hunting down Malcolm? It seemed to me they were just moving from place to place to avoid being found out as mages. They only finally settled down into Lothering because of the low templar forces there.

[jlb524]

Nerevar-as wrote...

THIS. So much this. We know Eamon, who was probalby the 3rd most powerful person in Ferelden couldn´t prevent Connor taken to the Circle, and must believe money or a position would be of help in much worse Kirkwall. Good writing there.<_<

He never tried before the demon....he never knew about it .  After Conner turns into an abomination and kills a portion of Redcliffe, I doubt he could keep Connor's magic secret.

[LobselVith8]

Urzon wrote...

Arl Eamon is a good and lawful man. That always did what was good for the people and the law. I'm sure he felt bad for having to send Conner away to the Circle, but it was the right thing to do. Even more so since, he was possessed by a demon for awhile. Plus, it would be very hard to hide that Conner was a mage if you asked for the Circle's help in the matter.

Loghain suggests that Arl Eamon knew about Connor being a mage from the beginning.

As for Connor, if Arl Eamon doesn't have the clout to do anything but sent Connor to the Circle Tower when it's known that his son is a mage, then I don't see how Leandra thought she could protect Bethany if anyone suspected that her daughter was a mage, especially since Malcolm fled Kirkwall when it was discovered that he was an apostate.

Urzon wrote...

Since they were unable to enter the city because they didn't have the money for a bribe, the only way to leave the Gallows is by ship. So unless Hawke could gather together enough money to pay for another trip by boat, I'm guessing he was expecting everyone one else to swim?

Do you have evidence that they were financially incapable of leaving Kirkwall, since it's never once mentioned as the reason Hawke, Leandra, and Hawke's sibling remain in Kirkwall? Even Hawke's suggestion implies that they may be able to leave Kirkwall for solice elsewhere.

Urzon wrote...

Bad writing leading leading to a brain dead Cullen, doesn't take away from the fact that some templar are ruthlessly cunning. Which you pointed out plenty of times in many other threads, and said cunning templar make it there job of catching run away mages.

If you acknowledge that there are ruthless templars, then I don't understand why you see no problem with Leandra bringing her family to Kirkwall or why I take issue with Hawke doing nothing about Cullen taking away his sister, when he's seen what happened to Karl. Malcolm and Leandra were able to avoid the templars when he was discovered, so it's clearly a solution for Hawke if he doesn't want to see his sister end up like Karl.

Urzon wrote...

Do you know for sure that the templar were actively hunting down Malcolm? It seemed to me they were just moving from place to place to avoid being found out as mages. They only finally settled down into Lothering because of the low templar forces there.

If you've seen the scenes between Hawke and Bethany, you already know they kept moving because of the templars.

[GavrielKay]

Why does it matter what the repercussions of trying to save Bethany would be? If there are players who wanted to risk it, the game should either allow it or provide a more satisfying reason why they can't. So and so might be upset, might call for backup, might have to run off in the night... so what? You can role play a Hawke who would risk just about anything to keep Bethany out of the Gallows.

Hawke fights a zillion impossible battles. If we weren't going to be able to role play our way through the scene, it should have been written such that it didn't feel like we were on the plot railroad.

They could have kept the scene almost exactly as is but thrown in something like Hawke charges Cullen and gets whacked on the head by the sneaky Templar behind her. When Hawke wakes up, Bethany is gone.

It didn't have to be written that Hawke could actually save Bethany, only that the player could actually make choices and give it a try if that was their inclination.

It's supposed to be an RPG, not a book. All the reasons presented why some Hawke's might not attack Cullen and his sidekick could be totally valid to a bunch of players, but it wasn't valid for me and they would not have had to change very much at all to make it feel like the player had some control.

[dragonflight288]

Leandra: We could go to Kirkwall!
Hawke: That wouldn't be my first choice.
Bethany: There are a LOT of templars in Kirkwall mother.
Leandra: But we do have family there....and an estate.

It has been stated that what happened with Eamon and Connor is not known to the Hawke family. As far as Leandra is aware of, her family still has enough political influence to be right under the Viscount and a great deal of money for bribes. Money and Influence.

And after arriving at Kirkwall, both Carver and Bethany are "We're staying here! No more running!"

At this point, all the Hawke's know is that there is a large templar force in Kirkwall, not that they're sadistic and heartless to mages. We gather scraps of evidence throughout Act 1, most of it is only found when you are looking for it. Not everyone gets the Templar-Lieutenant's letter when freeing Karl so not everyone is aware that the tranquility of Karl was illegal.

Loghain suggests that Arl Eamon knew about Connor being a mage from the beginning.

And both Jowan and Isolde both blatantly admit they were keeping Connor's talents hidden from Eamon because Eamon himself would insist on sending Connor to the Circle.

The biggest difference between Connor and the Hawke children is actually pretty blatantly obvious. Malcolm.

Malcolm was a fully trained mage who had gone through his Harrowing and then went on to teach his children.

Jowan believed himself weak as a mage so he practiced blood magic to make up for his weak points and never went through the Harrowing. Connor had no formal training and could barely even cast a minor spell.

If you've seen the scenes between Hawke and Bethany, you already know they kept moving because of the templars.

I feel like I should quote Fenris here. "There comes a time when you stop running, and turn to face the tiger."

[Neminea]

TobiTobsen wrote...

What we know is that the templars don't follow the rules in Kirkwall.
They tranquil mages they aren't allowed to tranquil. They whip mages just for talking with outsiders. They rape mages and threaten them with tranquility if they should tell it to somebody. The second in command of Meredith thinks that you can't treat mages as people and tells us that the public isn't helping the templars like they did in the past because they can't stand the way Meredith is leading the Gallows. It's all there... all in the first act.

You guys must have more imagination than me, or have seen things in the game that I managed to miss. I didn't see any of this happen (specially not in act 1), just hearsay. Even Anders admits he was never beaten or raped, just that it does happen. People aren't all good, things like that happen everywhere. To me this sounds like: I am not sending my child to school because teachers raping or beating children does happen. Yes, things like that happen, and no I don't think you can go through life assuming that it will happen. Heck If I believed that I would have to lock myself up somewhere and never go out again because things like that can happen in the streets too.

[GavrielKay]

Neminea wrote...
You guys must have more imagination than me, or have seen things in the game that I managed to miss. I didn't see any of this happen (specially not in act 1), just hearsay. Even Anders admits he was never beaten or raped, just that it does happen. People aren't all good, things like that happen everywhere. To me this sounds like: I am not sending my child to school because teachers raping or beating children does happen. Yes, things like that happen, and no I don't think you can go through life assuming that it will happen. Heck If I believed that I would have to lock myself up somewhere and never go out again because things like that can happen in the streets too.

Except we know Kirkwall is worse than the average circle because even Cullen is surprised at how low the general popular support for the Templars is.

The whippings and such are things you can hear comments about as you walk through the Gallows courtyard.  Also, I think someone mentioned that you can hear someone being beaten if you stand in a certain place when waiting at the docks upon arrival in Kirkwall.

Don't you get the first 3 of the Enigma of Kirkwall codeces in act 1?  You know something is weird with Kirkwall.

Why Hawke stays in Kirkwall at all is almost as big a mystery as why Hawke stands aside as Cullen takes Bethany.

[Neminea]

How is any of that not hearsay at that point?

You can twist it whatever way you want, but you can't have full choice in a game where the story is as important as in the dragon age series. You didn't have that in Origin, you didn't have that in Awakening. As has been said before, if you want full roleplay freedom, play PnP. In a game, there is a preset story. And even though you can have choices as to how to get there, the story is set in stone.

It must be the lack of sleep but I am getting slightly annoyed with the whole "Hawke is -my- character and he/she should do what I want, when I want it" thing. The fact that his/her name is Hawke kinda defeats that, since you can't even name them the way you want. Hawke belongs to Bioware. He/she is part of story that needed to be told. Yes it's an rpg -game-. When has an rpg game ever given you full freedom?

Heck even PnP doesn't always have that, depending on your DM.

[GavrielKay]

Hawke doesn't have to be able to succeed. But just stepping aside like a meek kitten feels stupid. They could move the plot along just fine with alternative approaches to that scene.

[Neminea]

And yet, people would still have complained about that.

If Bethany had chosen to go to the circle while Hawke was away people would complain about how that would either be ooc for her, or how they couldn't be there to do anything about it (just like now)
If Hawke could have chosen to fight and it would have been the end of that play-through either because he died trying or fled kirkwall, people would have complained about it.

I just think it is kind of easy to complain about it in highnsight, when I don't believe they just "made it up as they went along". Bioware probably discussed many possible ways to make that happen, and they picked this option. For me, it never even occured to me to fight cullen at that point. It was my first playthrough, I didnt know much about what was really going on in the circle. I recognized it as being important for the overall plot.

You can't please everyone, and if you really want a hero that does everything you want them to do you need to write him/her yourself, because as long as it's somebody elses intellectual property there will always be moments that you might not like or would have done differently.

In fact, why don't you guys give me some nice fanfiction about "what would have happened if Hawe had refused to give up Bethany"? Then we both win *happy face*

Modifié par Neminea, 24 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[maxernst]

Neminea wrote...

How is any of that not hearsay at that point?

You can twist it whatever way you want, but you can't have full choice in a game where the story is as important as in the dragon age series. You didn't have that in Origin, you didn't have that in Awakening. As has been said before, if you want full roleplay freedom, play PnP. In a game, there is a preset story. And even though you can have choices as to how to get there, the story is set in stone.
 

Nobody expects "full roleplay freedom" in a CRPG.  However, it's not enjoyable to play a game if you're forced to roleplay a character you can't empathize with or simply can't understand.  It's like spending fifty hours of your time with somebody you just don't like.  This has never been a problem with any Bioware game before DA2.  It is a HUGE problem with the Witcher for me, which is why I gave up part way through the third chapter and have no interest in playing the sequel.

[maxernst]

Neminea wrote...

And yet, people would still have complained about that.

If Bethany had chosen to go to the circle while Hawke was away people would complain about how that would either be ooc for her, or how they couldn't be there to do anything about it (just like now)

Except that they'd be wrong--it would be perfectly in character for Bethany.  And there are all kinds of things that happen offstage in Kirkwall that you can't control, and I don't hear a lot of complaints about them.  There's a logical reason why you're not there and can't be there, just as you can't be at the Chantry to stop Anders when you get called to the Gallows at the end of act 3. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Nerevar-as wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Urzon wrote...

A place where she can use her families money and influcene to protect her family from harm, after all that they suffered. Only to find out when they get there, that her brother has gambled away all the family fortune and her childhood home.

If Arl Eamon wasn't able to protect his son Connor from the Circle of Ferelden, I don't see why Leandra thought she could protect Bethany.

THIS. So much this. We know Eamon, who was probalby the 3rd most powerful person in Ferelden couldn´t prevent Connor taken to the Circle, and must believe money or a position would be of help in much worse Kirkwall. Good writing there.<_<

Uhm Bethany is a trained and tried mage who is in control of her powers. Conner was an untrained child-mage, with his powers out of control. Furthermore, Conner WAS kept from the Circle effectively. If it wasn't for the demon, he could probably have stayed out of the Circle. Eamon didn't want to "proctect" his son from the Circle, if Eamon had known that Conner was a mage, he would have sent him away. Isolde on the other hand, couldn't bear the humiliation of a mage child, and thus tried to keep it secret.

So basically the whole argument "If Eamon couldn't, then Leandra can't!" pretty much falls flat on its face, since Eamon never even wanted to keep Conenr out of the Circle.

[whykikyouwhy]

Roleplaying a character that you can't understand or find sympathetic in any way may not be *solely* the fault of the game however. I've mentioned expectations before - people purchased and stepped into this game with different expectations. The same happens with any form of entertainment you indulge in - movies, TV shows, books. A character could be lauded as brilliant and heroic and yet for you, or the person next to you, that doesn't ring true. For me, that doesn't indicate that everything about that character is flawed - he/she simply just wasn't for you.

I think any developer or writer would be hard-pressed to create a character or world that everyone would be satisfied with, to varying degrees. What some people see as a state of powerlessness for Hawke, others see as situational circumstances dictating pieces of the story.

But a story was being told, and we were allowed to play in it. The deal is that we have a certain end result to move toward. That doesn't remove the ability to role-play, but it just may wind up *not* being how you would prefer to role-play. And as neminea pointes out, even in a PnP setting, you have certain things you must adhere to, certain DM-rules to abide by.

[GavrielKay]

Is it really that hard to imagine that players would be unsatisfied at having their baby sister taken away by what is presented as two lone Templars at Uncle Gamlen's house? I mean, no one is saying Hawke should have been able to dance naked under the moonlight on command and wondering why that wasn't built into the game. We're supposed to be playing a hero. Someone who is going to rise to become the Champion of Kirkwall. It really isn't a stretch to think the devs should have built in a better excuse for letting our baby sister get carted off to be a prisoner for life.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So basically the whole argument "If Eamon couldn't, then Leandra can't!" pretty much falls flat on its face, since Eamon never even wanted to keep Conenr out of the Circle.

I don't recall Leandra ever saying in game that she thought her family's position would help ensure safety for either Hawke or Bethany.  Did I miss that, or was that an assumption by players to try to make sense of it?

In any case, presumably Leandra hadn't been to Kirkwall in ages.  She obviously didn't know the family was now destitute.  She probably also didn't know that the Templars there were a bit more, zealous?, than most either.

The silly thing is that even when we get there, and find out we're broke and going to have to indenture ourselves for a year to even get in...  they still want to stay.

[whykikyouwhy]

Players being unsatisfied by certain aspects in the game, r how certain scenes played out, isn't difficult to understand, no. My post was meant to address the broader scope of this thread and the many tangents it has taken. When it comes down to what should or should not have been included in the game, we wind up talking about our opinions, which all are entitled to. But I don't think it's fair to be dismissive of the story - how it was written and why it was written that way. There are reasons, I am sure, but we just may not be aware of them yet. The world of the game is on loan to us in a fashion, so while I may not like all of the twists and turns, I try to determine the bigger picture - the why's. I try to fill in those gaps. I may be wrong, but I won't know until a dev says otherwise with something like "o, that's there because..." or "yeah, we screwed that up." (Or something in between)

I just don't see Hawke as powerless for that scene where Bethany goes to the Circle. But I've already stated how I viewed it, and yes, it's purely my opinion.

As far as staying in Kirkwall, Bethany tells Hawke something to the effect of "no more running" and that makes sense to me - the family is tired in body, mind and probably soul. They fled the Blight and darkspawn. They may just need to catch their breath. And they know that other evils dwell in other parts of Thedas, so it's a gamble either way.