250 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

Don't worry, the current system was largely based on the method of storytelling 'it all happened already.' You can only affect minor events or details but not the big events.

I don't think it's coming back. DA3 will probably be a.. how can i put it, 'real time' like DAO.

[Anyroad2]

Asking for a better system at this point would be like complaining, in the early 90s, that Super Mario Brothers was in 2D, linear, and your choices to help the yoshis or not didn't impact the story.

DAO did a very good job of creating the illusion of choice and their impact on the story. You could pick where to go and then at the end you usually had 2 choices (except for Orzimmar, you had 4)... but they all pretty much meant nothing. Killing all the Dalish had zero impact on anything dealing with Denerim or the Blight.

No matter what you did, who you sided with, and when you did things, you would always always always end up having to rush to Denerim which was already crawling wing Darkspawn by the time you arrived. You always had to kill the Archdemon, you always had to save the day. There was no choice in that. You couldnt just leave Ferelden. You couldn't just ignore the Circle of Magi or anything else.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 21 août 2011 - 10:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Op
Either because Hawke is lazy, or because Varric is a douche. Take your pick.

[alex90c]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Op
Either because Hawke is lazy, or because Varric is a douche. Take your pick.

Rivalled Varric calls out Hawke on his inaction so it's definitely the former rather than the latter.

Modifié par alex90c, 21 août 2011 - 10:23 .

[Icy Magebane]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Asking for a better system at this point would be like complaining, in the early 90s, that Super Mario Brothers was in 2D, linear, and your choices to help the yoshis or not didn't impact the story.

DAO did a very good job of creating the illusion of choice and their impact on the story. You could pick where to go and then at the end you usually had 2 choices (except for Orzimmar, you had 4)... but they all pretty much meant nothing. Killing all the Dalish had zero impact on anything dealing with Denerim or the Blight.

No matter what you did, who you sided with, and when you did things, you would always always always end up having to rush to Denerim which was already crawling wing Darkspawn by the time you arrived. You always had to kill the Archdemon, you always had to save the day. There was no choice in that. You couldnt just leave Ferelden. You couldn't just ignore the Circle of Magi or anything else.

... criticism is a form of complaining, but with the aim of identifying problems and creating solutions... I'm not saying that they need to remake DA2, just saying that the system in place was unfulfilling and should be changed.  If Super Mario had the kind of flaws you mentioned, it wouldn't have been essentially the same game for 20 years or so.  Anyway...

Taking the example of killing the Dalish... while it didn't have an impact on what the final quest was like, aside from who the Warden's allies were, you might be overlooking the impact it has on the story you are experiencing.  A Warden who kills the Dalish and one who sides with them are two completely different characters, and it takes only a small amount of imagination to fill in whatever gaps are leftover from the epilogue slides... you still have the knowledge that a Dalish clan was wiped out, and IMO that has a pretty big impact on the story.  But I've heard this argument enough times to accept that not everyone sees it that way...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 21 août 2011 - 10:27 .

[Anyroad2]

Icy Magebane wrote...

... criticism is a form of complaining, but with the aim of identifying problems and creating solutions... I'm not saying that they need to remake DA2, just saying that the system in place was unfulfilling and should be changed.  If Super Mario had the kind of flaws you mentioned, it wouldn't have been essentially the same game for 20 years or so.  Anyway...

Taking the example of killing the Dalish... while it didn't have an impact on what the final quest was like, aside from who the Warden's allies were, you might be overlooking the impact it has on the story you are experiencing.  A Warden who kills the Dalish and one who sides with them are two completely different characters, and it takes only a small amount of imagination to fill in whatever gaps are leftover from the epilogue slides... you still have the knowledge that a Dalish clan was wiped out, and IMO that has a pretty big impact on the story.  But I've heard this argument enough times to accept that not everyone sees it that way...

The Mario Brothers thing was more about technology. There wasnt any way for them to make that a 3D game then. Theres no way to make the Dragon Age games as complex as some people want them to be at the moment either. Future releases on the next generation of consoles? I sure as hell hope so.

Choices made during quests impact the kind of Hawke you play in DA2.

During Fenris' Companion quest, you can choose what to do with that female elf. You can give her money so she might fend for herself, you can enslave her, you can giver her a job, and I think you can just send her on her way without any help at all. I think that a slave owning Hawke is a lot diffrent than one who isnt.

With Isabella... you can give her up to the Arishok, fight for her freedom... or not have to worry about it at all if she doesnt like you enough to return. During her last companion quest, you can either let her allow Castillon to live in exchange for his ship, or you can kill him because you feel its the right thing to do. A Hawke who makes one choice over the other is not the same Hawke.

I could go on, I mean there are a lot of choices that you can make that have an impact on Hawkes character if you choose to think from an RP perspective.

[TJPags]

You assume Hawke actually has the power to do something. I'm not sure he does, but on that assumption, here's the problem, as I see it:

If Hawke does something, that leads to a decision. Decisions lead to options. Options lead to import errors.

We all know how many places there were in Origins and Awakening where a decision could be made which alters, even in a minor way, the story. You can recruit Leli and Sten, or not. You can defile the ashes and be attacked by Wynne, or not bring her. Shale will turn on you if she's in your party and you side with Branka. Brother Burkel gets a Chantry, or not. Nathaniel is a GW, or dead. Achitect lives or dies, etc. etc. etc.

And we all know how many import errors there were in Awakening, in GoA, in WH, and into DA2. We also have continuity errors, timeline errors, etc.

The more choices we get, the harder it seems it is for BW to reflect those - even in a minor way - in future games.

I think they simply gave up on that. So they gave us a story where, basically, nothing changes. You MUST recruit everyone. Petrice's plot MUST go forward. Anders MUST destroy the Chantry. Orsino MUST go Harvester.

[Sepewrath]

Well isn't an issue that can be leveled against any story, especially in video games. If Hawke lets say in Act 1, kills Meredith in an alley mugging, kills the Arishok in his sleep, kills Petrice, because, why not lol. Toss in Orsino and Dumar just for the lulz and then what? Games over. Either that or random person X steps in and makes these events happen anyway.

Their trying to make a compelling story, that means you cant do whatever you want and they have to make a fun game to play. Its a video game, the same reason Marcus Fenix didn't kill the Locust Queen in the middle of Gears 1, the reason Link has to go to a bunch of dungeons before fight Ganondorf in Zelda, the reason the Dahaka decides to wait until the end of Warrior Within to put the boots to the Prince of Persia, the same reason the Archdemon decided to show itself in Denerim; all adhere to the same reason why you cant kill Petrice, that every mage you meet isn't happy and content, its the reason you cant stop Cullen from taking Bethany. Its a game and if you could turn around and just walk out of Kirkwall or say your not fighting any Archdemon or Link kills Ganon in the first 20 minutes.

People know this and still try to be critical of stories in games.

[Macropodmum]

Because DA2 is history as told by Varric, I believe it was nothing more than a setup for a future part of the DA story and if you had of been able to change things then that wouldn't fit with the future storyline...

[Sepewrath]

Well if Hawke tried to take Bethany by force, it would have been a disaster as they would have been hunted by the Templar's and a part of the content would be cut off from the player, for a completely reasonable reaction.

I doubt the Templar's would have anything to do with someone who attacked one of their people and before anyone starts throwing in "This Templar fight says otherwise" those were hostile Templar's and since you killed them, no one would know outside of survivors like Thrask. Those Templar's were out after apostates, anything could have happened to them. It would be a different story for Cullen peacefully going to the Hawke house and turning up dead.

[Sajuro]

Killing Petrice: it wouldn't look good if a chantry sister turned up dead and Hawke doesn't know whether or not anyone saw him go into the house, if they did then there would be a possibility of the Templars knocking down Gamlen's door and either taking bethany to the circle and taking Hawke away or taking them both away to be executed.

Resisting the Templars: Cullen goes out to bring an apostate to the circle, Cullen winds up dead in low town, some more templars go to bring the apostate in, funny because now they are dead too and a certain family is trying to buy passage on a ship. No amount of bribes could help that situation.

[Icy Magebane]

Messed up things happen in Lowtown. It would be hard to pin that on Hawke, especially given the fact that a mage-Hawke routinely fights gangs there at night, and probably makes one hell of a commotion when doing so. The people of Kirkwall don't snitch.

Also... let's not forget how many people and creatures Hawke has killed.  I'm 99% sure he could kill all of Kirkwall and not get taken out, much less be executed by anybody... lol... nah... not gonna happen.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 22 août 2011 - 04:04 .

[Ndutz]

You CAN telll the Viscount about Petrice. Right at the conclusion of Offered and lost you can tell the Viscount that you suspect a mother is involved, to which the viscount asked wether Hawke has a CONCRETE proof. Naturally Hawke says no.As of why dont Hawke just kill Petrice. Duh, you cant just walk in to the chantry and kill a reverent mother, believe it or no Hawke is still not above the law.

Modifié par Ndutz, 22 août 2011 - 04:21 .

[Ndutz]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Messed up things happen in Lowtown. It would be hard to pin that on Hawke, especially given the fact that a mage-Hawke routinely fights gangs there at night, and probably makes one hell of a commotion when doing so. The people of Kirkwall don't snitch.

Also... let's not forget how many people and creatures Hawke has killed.  I'm 99% sure he could kill all of Kirkwall and not get taken out, much less be executed by anybody... lol... nah... not gonna happen.

Well samething sould be said about how mage Hawke could throw a firebal right infront of the Knight Commander without him saying anything about it. But yea this isnt an open ended game like Elder Scroll for example, there always is a narative constraint.

[Icy Magebane]

Ndutz wrote...

Well samething sould be said about how mage Hawke could throw a firebal right infront of the Knight Commander without him saying anything about it. But yea this isnt an open ended game like Elder Scroll for example, there always is a narative constraint.

Thank you kindly.  Bioware should strive to surpass all developers and not simply allow themselves to slip into mediocrity.  Their next game will determine whether they've learned that lesson or not.... IMHO, of course.  Details like that fireball stunt are what separates the Oblivions from the Risens of the gaming world.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 22 août 2011 - 04:24 .

[TobiTobsen]

Sajuro wrote...

Resisting the Templars: Cullen goes out to bring an apostate to the circle, Cullen winds up dead in low town, some more templars go to bring the apostate in, funny because now they are dead too and a certain family is trying to buy passage on a ship. No amount of bribes could help that situation.

Well... Karras goes to bring in some apostates, gets killed with with whole patrol, only Thrask is alive to tell some wild story. Other templars don't belive Thrasks story, go to kill Hawke and end up dead too. Nobody cares.

BioWare was just not consistently enough. We have the proof that some stuff would be doable, but Hawke or other people don't do it because the plot demands it.

[Neminea]

Hm.. I'm a bit surprised to see how many people would like to have "just" killed the templars coming for Bethany, or sister Petrice. Both never openly attack -you- so imo that would have been murder. The templars were just doing their job, and Petrice was bat crazy. I don't really solve any of my irl problems with murder (or do I? WHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHa... okay... ahum) so maybe Hawke wanted to do the reasonable thing as well?

[Wulfram]

Neminea wrote...

Hm.. I'm a bit surprised to see how many people would like to have "just" killed the templars coming for Bethany, or sister Petrice. Both never openly attack -you- so imo that would have been murder. The templars were just doing their job, and Petrice was bat crazy. I don't really solve any of my irl problems with murder (or do I? WHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHa... okay... ahum) so maybe Hawke wanted to do the reasonable thing as well?

Killing Petrice would be murder, though more justified than some of the other murders Hawke may carry out during the game.

As for the Templars, you'd be acting in defence of your sister.  And "their job" is inherently wrong, so it's no excuse.

[TobiTobsen]

Neminea wrote...

Hm.. I'm a bit surprised to see how many people would like to have "just" killed the templars coming for Bethany, or sister Petrice. Both never openly attack -you- so imo that would have been murder. The templars were just doing their job, and Petrice was bat crazy. I don't really solve any of my irl problems with murder (or do I? WHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHa... okay... ahum) so maybe Hawke wanted to do the reasonable thing as well?

It's a matter of opinion whether it's more reasonable to hand over your sister to some autocratic zealots and knowingly send her to the worst circle in Thedas where the templars don't obey the normal rules or try to protect her from people who condemn her for something she was born with and will mistreat her just because their faith demands it.

Wulfram wrote...

As for the Templars, you'd be acting in defence of your sister.  And "their job" is inherently wrong, so it's no excuse.

I agree with that.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

That bugged me too. That Hawke is never given options to be pro-active instead of re-active. I don't expect Hawke to be able to magically change, or even influence, the inevitable. In fact, I'm glad she can't. However, I would have prefered Hawke to at least be able to attempt and try something, and have it fail due to circumstances/situations beyond their control. Powerlessness does not equal lazieness or apathy. Being powerless does not make one incapable of at least attempting to do something, regardless.

With Bethany and the templars, for example, there is no way in hell I would allow my sister to be taken to the Kirkwall Circle. No way in Hell. If Bethany decided that she was tired of being an apostate, and wanted to go legit and turn herself in, I'd get her a boat back to ferelden and encourage her to turn herself into the Circle of Magi there, which is better run and managed. And since Act 2 takes place 4 years after fleeing Lothering, the Blight has long ended, and the Circle of magi at Kinloch Hold, regardless of whether the Warden saved or annulled it, has been restored to normal function. And it is certainly a much better place in regards to mage welfare, as well as templar behavior. But Kirkwall? No way, don't care how much she begged "not to make a scene". Going to the Gallows in Act 1 alone showed me a place I wouldn't send a dog to, let alone my beloved, surviving sibling.

And since the templars are in my house, on my turf, in my house, and relatively few in number, I'd totally press the advantage and take them out. I got me, Bethany, and my fercious warhound. Plus Sandal, who somehow manages to end up surrounded by dead elite darkspawn, no matter where they go. So Cullen and co would be very dead. After dispatching the templars, I'd go find Isabella, Anders, and Varric to help me dispose of the corpses somewhere else, and rig the bodies and stage a "crime scene". Then have Varric, the master of Artful Bullsh*t, spread stories and rumors through the proper channels to further direct suspicion elsewhere.

And then of course, setting up safe passage to some other country with a more morderately run Circle, so that Bethany could turn herself in if she still desired to.

It's about Hawke having many resources and connections at their disposal, but never utilizing them in any intelligent, active way that really bugs me, even if Hawke would still be unable to change the bigger, major plot aspects.

[Xilizhra]

And since the templars are in my house, on my turf, in my house, and relatively few in number, I'd totally press the advantage and take them out. I got me, Bethany, and my fercious warhound. Plus Sandal, who somehow manages to end up surrounded by dead elite darkspawn, no matter where they go. So Cullen and co would be very dead. After dispatching the templars, I'd go find Isabella, Anders, and Varric to help me dispose of the corpses somewhere else, and rig the bodies and stage a "crime scene". Then have Varric, the master of Artful Bullsh*t, spread stories and rumors through the proper channels to further direct suspicion elsewhere.

Bethany's right in front of one of them; the non-Cullen templar could easily stab her in the back if you made any aggressive moves, and they might try taking Leandra hostage if necessary. Plus, Sandal hasn't moved in with you yet. And if the templars didn't come back at once, Meredith would probably move out in force before you could rig up a convincing lie.

[FaeQueenCory]

This is also one of the reasons for why I was never emotionally invested in this game's story. Hawke might as well be a chair that is toted around, for all the impact he makes. And him being voiced just further detached me from being in his shoes... partially because he was voiced (makes the game less involving because it's then just an interactive movie), but mostly because of the dialogue wheel making it easier to force out-of-character, make-everyone-love-me choices than it was to roleplay (a different thread but still relevant to my detachment from Hawke and his from the story).
The fact that the dialogue wheel only implements a nice-douchey-angry choice system.... that all give the same replies no matter what you say (with the very occasional plot-star choice or companion choice).
Ultimately, now that I thought about it, I think his segregation from the happenings of the plot are a direct result of all of the dialogue wheel's options (for the most part) resulting in the SAME OUTCOME regardless of what was said.

[GavrielKay]

They could have avoided most of the player angst over Petrice and Bethany if they'd just had it happen while the player wasn't there.

We could have returned from the Deep Roads to find a note waiting from Bethany that they'd come to take her while Hawke was away. Now Bethany is secure in the Gallows and Hawke has no recourse. The story progresses exactly the same way but the player isn't left wondering why they couldn't role play according to their crafted character. The Hawke I was playing did not care that Bethany didn't want trouble. My Hawke would have taken the whole family out of Kirkwall in the dead of night rather than have Bethany taken to that wretched place.

Same with Petrice. If she simply isn't there upon Hawke's return, there is no back alley opportunity to kill her and we just meet her again later at the Chantry where it is easier to believe Hawke wouldn't cut her throat.

They show Hawke/the player these things and then don't allow the player to act in a way consistent with their role playing intentions. The story could move along just fine without making the player frustrated by being in a situation that should clearly allow for a certain choice (killing a few Templars and running off with Bethany, knifing Petrice and skulking off into the night) that are then denied for no good reason.

Make it happen off screen so there is no choice to be made.

All this stuff about decisions making a difference is a whole separate issue. I wanted to pick a personality for my Hawkes and be able to act in a way consistent with that goal. If the player was intending to play an active, righteous and heroic Hawke, they were denied at many turns.

You couldn't kill Grace, despite knowing that she was shacked up with a bunch of blood mages and wants you to murder a bunch of Templars for her. You couldn't kill Petrice for sending you on a suicide mission in order to start a war. You couldn't kill a few Templars and save Bethany from the circle. You couldn't challenge Meredith to a duel rather than let her wander off and prepare for the RoA. You couldn't chase after Quentin before he manages to kidnap and murder your mother.

I thought DAO did a much better job of giving choices that let the Warden behave in ways consistent with role playing choices. The end game may have been basically the same once you got there, but you could choose good/evil/active paths on the way.

Killing the Dalish in DAO may not have had much impact on the overall plot, but it was an opportunity to behave a certain way if your character was crafted that way. In DA2, killing the Dalish isn't a choice - it's an accident of dialogue that isn't even very clear when you choose it.

Every game is going to have some kind of ending that all players have to reach. But how you get there is important if you're really going to have an enjoyable role playing experience. DA2 didn't offer many of the sorts of choices that would have made it a role playing game vs. a scripted narrative.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bethany's right in front of one of them; the non-Cullen templar could easily stab her in the back if you made any aggressive moves, and they might try taking Leandra hostage if necessary. Plus, Sandal hasn't moved in with you yet. And if the templars didn't come back at once, Meredith would probably move out in force before you could rig up a convincing lie.

Unlikely, in Meredith's case, since we have templars getting killed or ending up dead quite a bit in Kirkwall, yet she doesn't do anything about it. Or anything about anything, for that matter, except mages under her direct control in the Gallows. Act 2 Cullen, when you later talk to him at the Gallows, even tells you Meredith has become withdrawn and reclusive. By the time she could be bothered to act, Hawke can already have done alot. And Bethany is not weak and helpless damsel in distress, she was trained to fight, though in a different way, to Hawke.

Or, say you don't wish to soil your nice new carpets in your new estate with templar guts. You "allow" Cullen and co to remove Bethany from the estate. Then go round up your friends and ambush them, killing the templars and rescuing your sister. Kirkwall is a very dangerous place, as Aveline keeps reminding you. (In fact, it's why she is so initially reluctant to connect the white lily murders, because she says there are so many crimes and murders in Kirkwall, that the likelyhood of connection is too small without some sort of evidence or proof). And given that even as early as act 1, Cullen tells you the popular sentiment has been turning against Meredith and the templars, you have even more to cover your tracks. By the time the templars don't show up and someone in the Gallows decides to investigate, Bethany can be on her way to being smuggled out of the city and sent elsewhere.

it's not inconcievable. What is inconcievable to me is playing a Hawke who would allow their baby sister to be taken to a place where even the Tranquils tell you they will get beaten if you steal or break anything, and not put up a fight, or hatch an immediate plan to rescue her. Unless, of course, Hawke simply did not give a sh*t about their sister. Which i suppose is also possible to play.

But for me, in that situation, I'd take my chances, even if it meant losing the comfy life I had managed to build. I would find the safety and well being of my last surviving sibling paramont to other considerations. It's not like life on the run would be anything new or intolerable for Hawke, I think.