250 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Unlikely, in Meredith's case, since we have templars getting killed or ending up dead quite a bit in Kirkwall, yet she doesn't do anything about it. Or anything about anything, for that matter, except mages under her direct control in the Gallows. Act 2 Cullen, when you later talk to him at the Gallows, even tells you Meredith has become withdrawn and reclusive. By the time she could be bothered to act, Hawke can already have done alot. And Bethany is not weak and helpless damsel in distress, she was trained to fight, though in a different way, to Hawke.

Yes, but this is the knight-captain, and the only dead templars in Act 1 were either on an unsanctioned mission (Tranquility) or had their deaths covered up by Thrask (Act of Mercy).

Or, say you don't wish to soil your nice new carpets in your new estate with templar guts. You "allow" Cullen and co to remove Bethany from the estate. Then go round up your friends and ambush them, killing the templars and rescuing your sister. Kirkwall is a very dangerous place, as Aveline keeps reminding you. (In fact, it's why she is so initially reluctant to connect the white lily murders, because she says there are so many crimes and murders in Kirkwall, that the likelyhood of connection is too small without some sort of evidence or proof). And given that even as early as act 1, Cullen tells you the popular sentiment has been turning against Meredith and the templars, you have even more to cover your tracks. By the time the templars don't show up and someone in the Gallows decides to investigate, Bethany can be on her way to being smuggled out of the city and sent elsewhere.

About the "nice new carpets" thing... you were still living in Gamlen's house. This is right after you emerge from the Deep Roads. Other than that, I admit that it seems more plausible, and that more thought should have been put into Bethany being brought to the Circle (specifically, she should have been removed and already in the Gallows before Hawke arrived).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

About the "nice new carpets" thing... you were still living in Gamlen's house. This is right after you emerge from the Deep Roads. Other than that, I admit that it seems more plausible, and that more thought should have been put into Bethany being brought to the Circle (specifically, she should have been removed and already in the Gallows before Hawke arrived).

Ahh, thanks for the Clarification. I haven't played a non-Mage Hawke, so I don't know the specifics of when and where, just the general scene and scenario.

But even in Gamlen's house, given that it's in a seedy part of town with a ntorious high rate of random crime, it would probably be even easier to waste the templars and get rid of the evidence. And Lowtown is one of those areas where anti-Templar sentiments tend to run stronger, so you have even more incentive. Given that non-mage hawke has already stabbed, slashed, bashed, and poisoned their way though numerous and fearsome enemies by that point, I don't see why a couple of templar punks should make him/her pause. especially if they are still in Lowtown and have not reclaimed the family estate, it would be even more reason to do so, since they haven't yet established themselves amongst the wealthy elite, but still have the money and goods from the expedition. Hawke would have the funds to smuggle the whole family safely out of Kirkwall, with enough left over to restart a life elsewhere.

But yeah, that particular part of the game could have been, and should have been. handled and played out differently, especially if the plot demands bethany be in the gallows. They should have come up with a better scenario, or better way to make it where there was no way this could be avoided, nor could Hawke, even with their resources, later try and stage a jail break for their sister.

[Xilizhra]

I don't know. Martially speaking, Cullen could definitely be a match for Hawke, who isn't accompanied by any party members at this time. Bethany could be Silenced and thus prevented from casting spells, and I don't think she has her staff on her. It'd be one-on-two against a nonmage Hawke, and I don't know if the odds for that are that good, especially with noncombatants Hawke cares about in the house.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. Martially speaking, Cullen could definitely be a match for Hawke, who isn't accompanied by any party members at this time. Bethany could be Silenced and thus prevented from casting spells, and I don't think she has her staff on her. It'd be one-on-two against a nonmage Hawke, and I don't know if the odds for that are that good, especially with noncombatants Hawke cares about in the house.

Given that Hawke nearly singlehandedly defeated an Ancient Rock Wraith, and given the difference in effectiveness of PC vs NPC builds, my money is on Hawke.

In any event, he should have been able to try.  [Or the entire scene should never have been allowed to happen.]

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. Martially speaking, Cullen could definitely be a match for Hawke, who isn't accompanied by any party members at this time. Bethany could be Silenced and thus prevented from casting spells, and I don't think she has her staff on her. It'd be one-on-two against a nonmage Hawke, and I don't know if the odds for that are that good, especially with noncombatants Hawke cares about in the house.

Then Hawke ambushes him outside the house, on the streets of Lowtown, as he is making his way to the gallows with poor bethany. And hawke wouldn't be alone, either.

Regardless, if bethany is being taken away, it's because Hawke is a non-mage. And while templars are very skilled at fighting mages and magic users, against non-Mages, they are about as much a threat as any warrior, guardsman, or soldier. Maybe even less so. Given that templars training is so focused on fighting people who are not warriors but magicians, their martial prowess against a trained, seasoned warrior would not be special or notable enough for it to be an issue.

Like Alistair said, against non-mages, a templar is just another guy in a metal suit. So I'd put my money on non-Mage Hawke and friends pwning Cullen and his templar sidekick, especially in an ambush on some city street or back alley, especially in a neighborhood/district that Hawke is more intimately familiar with in terrain and layout. And given anti-Templar sentiments in the area as well as the high crime and lawlessness, I doubt many people will be "witnessesing" anything.

[TobiTobsen]

Actually it wouldn't be Hawke vs two Templars, but Hawke & a trained Mabari Wardog vs. two Templars.

[whykikyouwhy]

Woe be to the Hawke-player who did not purchase the Black Emporium DLC package then.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Woe be to the Hawke-player who did not purchase the Black Emporium DLC package then.

Purchase it? Most people on here bought DA2 new, so it came with the whole package free.

[GavrielKay]

Whether Hawke had any real chance of defeating the Templars or not, depriving the player of the opportunity to try just prevents role playing. If you want to play a cautious pragmatic Hawke then fine, but I wanted to play a Hawke who hated the Templars and the circle atrocities and would try to keep Bethany out of there at all costs, including over her own stated wishes to avoid trouble.

If you're going to put the scene in, then put in the choices to go with it. Otherwise just have Gamlen tell Hawke "gee, they took Bethany and I couldn't stop them."

[Neminea]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Neminea wrote...

Hm.. I'm a bit surprised to see how many people would like to have "just" killed the templars coming for Bethany, or sister Petrice. Both never openly attack -you- so imo that would have been murder. The templars were just doing their job, and Petrice was bat crazy. I don't really solve any of my irl problems with murder (or do I? WHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHa... okay... ahum) so maybe Hawke wanted to do the reasonable thing as well?

It's a matter of opinion whether it's more reasonable to hand over your sister to some autocratic zealots and knowingly send her to the worst circle in Thedas where the templars don't obey the normal rules or try to protect her from people who condemn her for something she was born with and will mistreat her just because their faith demands it.

Wulfram wrote...

As for the Templars, you'd be acting in defence of your sister.  And "their job" is inherently wrong, so it's no excuse.

I agree with that.

They don't do it out of "evil" they (at least Cullen) think they are doing the only thing they can to protect people -and-  mages from said mages. Their job isn't inherently wrong, some of it's execution is. They came to arrest Bethany, would you kill a cop for arresting someone you know? Even if it was a corrupt one, or in a corrupt society, and whoever is being arrested didn't do anything wrong most people probably wouldn't, since it would cause more problems then it solves.

And really, could you justify a non abbrasive hawke killing a bunch of guys who can easily be good guys trying to help, and have your mother and sister on the run -again- even if your sister doesn't want to run anymore? Going against Bethany in this case would only show you have no respect for her, nor trust her to make her own decisions.

[ourimaler]

 The problem, I think, stems from how the act structure was built: The events of the first two acts culminate in the Arishok killing the Viscount, which leads to dictator Meredith in Act 3, which leads to Anders snapping, which leads to the inevitable downer ending - and the writers deliberately set it up so that the downer ending could not be avoided no matter what. If you had a way of neutralizing Petrice early on, or if you managed to get the Arishok his relic before he cracked, then the viscount wouldn't die, and the story wouldn't reach the conclusion the writers wanted - so they had to avoid giving us those options.

Contrast Origins: If you killed the Dalish, or killed the werewolves, or lifted their curse, it had an impact on the world, and on the epilogue, but it didn't affect the other main quests beyond determining who helped you in the final battle. Similarly, whether you crowned Bhelen or Harrowmont, or whether you saved Redcliff or not, didn't affect other main quests. And you had a lot more freedom in choosing the epilogue (did you die? Did Loghain sacrifice himself? Was Alistair king?).

TL;DR: Hawke is doing nothing because the plot requires it.

[IanPolaris]

ourimaler wrote...

 The problem, I think, stems from how the act structure was built: The events of the first two acts culminate in the Arishok killing the Viscount, which leads to dictator Meredith in Act 3, which leads to Anders snapping, which leads to the inevitable downer ending - and the writers deliberately set it up so that the downer ending could not be avoided no matter what. If you had a way of neutralizing Petrice early on, or if you managed to get the Arishok his relic before he cracked, then the viscount wouldn't die, and the story wouldn't reach the conclusion the writers wanted - so they had to avoid giving us those options.

Contrast Origins: If you killed the Dalish, or killed the werewolves, or lifted their curse, it had an impact on the world, and on the epilogue, but it didn't affect the other main quests beyond determining who helped you in the final battle. Similarly, whether you crowned Bhelen or Harrowmont, or whether you saved Redcliff or not, didn't affect other main quests. And you had a lot more freedom in choosing the epilogue (did you die? Did Loghain sacrifice himself? Was Alistair king?).

TL;DR: Hawke is doing nothing because the plot requires it.

Which is why this should have been a book or a comic strip series and NOT a game.

-Polaris

[TobiTobsen]

Neminea wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Neminea wrote...

Hm.. I'm a bit surprised to see how many people would like to have "just" killed the templars coming for Bethany, or sister Petrice. Both never openly attack -you- so imo that would have been murder. The templars were just doing their job, and Petrice was bat crazy. I don't really solve any of my irl problems with murder (or do I? WHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHa... okay... ahum) so maybe Hawke wanted to do the reasonable thing as well?

It's a matter of opinion whether it's more reasonable to hand over your sister to some autocratic zealots and knowingly send her to the worst circle in Thedas where the templars don't obey the normal rules or try to protect her from people who condemn her for something she was born with and will mistreat her just because their faith demands it.

Wulfram wrote...

As for the Templars, you'd be acting in defence of your sister.  And "their job" is inherently wrong, so it's no excuse.

I agree with that.

They don't do it out of "evil" they (at least Cullen) think they are doing the only thing they can to protect people -and-  mages from said mages. Their job isn't inherently wrong, some of it's execution is. They came to arrest Bethany, would you kill a cop for arresting someone you know? Even if it was a corrupt one, or in a corrupt society, and whoever is being arrested didn't do anything wrong most people probably wouldn't, since it would cause more problems then it solves.

And really, could you justify a non abbrasive hawke killing a bunch of guys who can easily be good guys trying to help, and have your mother and sister on the run -again- even if your sister doesn't want to run anymore? Going against Bethany in this case would only show you have no respect for her, nor trust her to make her own decisions.

The Templars are all chosen for their skill as warriors and their unshakable faith, not for their morality. They chose to support an opressive church that is build on violence and the doctrine that a whole group of people has to be suppressed because of their "curse". Cullen even compares mages to weapons, not to human beings. He does nothing while monsters like Karras and Alrik are playing their little games, just like every other "good" Templar in Kirkwall. They picked their side and will have to live with the consequences of that.

And you really would let your sister walk into the Kirkwall circle because you want to respect her decisions? The Hawkes sacrificed so much for Bethany to live free of the circle opression and you would just throw all of that away, because Bethany makes an illogical decision? She is not deciding what she wants to do for the day. She is deciding that her family needs to be relieved from the burden that she sees herself as (and only she. All the other Hawkes don't seem to be very fond of that thought) and that she should go to the Circle. Not any Circle, but the Kirkwall circle. The Circle where the Templars don't follow the rules. We heard about that already in act 1 and could see it for ourselves in Anders quest. That doesn't sound like a decision I would support, just to show her that I respect her.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 22 août 2011 - 09:34 .

[hoorayforicecream]

TobiTobsen wrote...

And you really would let your sister walk into the Kirkwall circle because you want to respect her decisions? The Hawkes sacrificed so much for Bethany to live free of the circle opression and you would just throw all of that away, because Bethany makes an illogical decision? She is not deciding what she wants to do for the day. She is deciding that her family needs to be relieved from the burden that she sees herself as (and only she. All the other Hawkes don't seem to be very fond of that thought) and that she should go to the Circle. Not any Circle, but the Kirkwall circle. The Circle where the Templars don't follow the rules. We heard about that already in act 1 and could see it for ourselves in Anders quest. That doesn't sound like a decision I would support, just to show her that I respect her.

How is forcing Bethany to do something against her will any better than what the Templars are doing? People don't always make logical decisions, but their decisions are theirs to make. I could understand if Bethany wasn't mature enough to make decisions for herself, but in this case it's entirely within her rights to choose what she wants to do with her life.

[Neminea]

Yet when she writes you later on she says it's not that bad. She's an adult, she can make her own choices. She has been forced to run by her family her whole life and she is tired of it. Before this she wonders in banter if she wouldnt be better of in the circle.
Now I am the eldest of my siblings, and if my brothers want to make stupid (in my opinion) choices thats their right, it's their live, and they have to learn it their own way.

The chantry also does a lot of good for people, just like the roman church did at the same time as they were doing witch burnings and crusades. My point is that they don't choose to join because they want to be evil bastards, they chose to join (in fact some don't even have a choice, see alistair) because they think they are doing good. Obviously there are exeptions, but you can't really tell one way or the other if Cullen knew about Alrik etc. You allready met Thrask and that guy looking into the white lilly murders at that point, and Cullen shows he can be reasonable with the templar recruit thing depending on what your Hawke says. Three good guys imho.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

And you really would let your sister walk into the Kirkwall circle because you want to respect her decisions? The Hawkes sacrificed so much for Bethany to live free of the circle opression and you would just throw all of that away, because Bethany makes an illogical decision? She is not deciding what she wants to do for the day. She is deciding that her family needs to be relieved from the burden that she sees herself as (and only she. All the other Hawkes don't seem to be very fond of that thought) and that she should go to the Circle. Not any Circle, but the Kirkwall circle. The Circle where the Templars don't follow the rules. We heard about that already in act 1 and could see it for ourselves in Anders quest. That doesn't sound like a decision I would support, just to show her that I respect her.

How is forcing Bethany to do something against her will any better than what the Templars are doing? People don't always make logical decisions, but their decisions are theirs to make. I could understand if Bethany wasn't mature enough to make decisions for herself, but in this case it's entirely within her rights to choose what she wants to do with her life.

Agreed, forcing Bethany back into running would be just as bad as forcing her into the circle against her will.

Modifié par Neminea, 22 août 2011 - 10:04 .

[IanPolaris]

The problem is this isn't a decision that only affects Bethany and Bethany seems too idealistic to see it. We know the Templars in Kirkwall don't follow the rules, and Hawke is a rapidly rising start (and new High Noble (Amell)) which makes him a perfect threat to Meredith's unofficial rule of Kirkwall, and that makes Bethany the perfect means of exortion.....something that Meredith quite blatently uses in Act III if you try to refuse her and Bethany is in the circle.

So, no. Hawke should have the option whether Bethany likes it or not.

-Polaris

[Drasynd]

Only GOOD templar is a DEAD templar.

[IanPolaris]

Neminea wrote...

Agreed, forcing Bethany back into running would be just as bad as forcing her into the circle against her will.

I don't agree.  At least you're free and not being molested/raped/killed/abused when you are on the run....and your sister can't be used to extort favors from you or your mother in the future. [And Meredith does do this]

-Polaris

[thats1evildude]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't agree.  At least you're free and not being molested/raped/killed/abused when you are on the run....and your sister can't be used to extort favors from you or your mother in the future. [And Meredith does do this]

You seem to be under the impression that being on the run from the law is an easy life. It's not.

It means constantly being on the move, never being able to stay in one place for too long or else you'll attract the attention of the templars. It means resorting to criminal activities to stay alive or living in a state or perpetual povery  And because you can't go to the authorities, you're at the mercy of all kinds of predators: slavers, bandits and worse. In fact, that's pretty much what the Wayward Son quest is all about.

And even if you avoid the templars and the criminals out to use you, a mage is always preyed upon by demons. At least when Bethany was with her family, she had supports in the form of her mother and siblings that would help her resist the demons. if she was on the run, she'd be alone.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 août 2011 - 10:30 .

[GavrielKay]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
How is forcing Bethany to do something against her will any better than what the Templars are doing? People don't always make logical decisions, but their decisions are theirs to make. I could understand if Bethany wasn't mature enough to make decisions for herself, but in this case it's entirely within her rights to choose what she wants to do with her life.

Hawke didn't come home to find out that Bethany had walked up to the Gallows and turned herself in.  If that had been the case, then I would agree that she should be allowed to make the decision.   But what we were actually shown is an unknown number of Templars coming to arrest her.  Now she may choose to tell Hawke that she doesn't want to cause any more trouble, but she didn't actually choose to turn herself in, she got caught. 

My Hawke would have fought off the Templars and gotten to a safe location where Bethany would have been free to tell Hawke that she'd rather go back to Kirkwall/Ferelden whatever and live in a circle.

The only way to have Bethany going to the circle work for all styles of role playing is to have it happen off screen.  It should be a done deal by the time Hawke returns from the Deep Roads and then we are forced to live with it.  As a scene played out on screen where the player can't make a decision to role play Hawke - it fails utterly and breaks immersion.

[GavrielKay]

thats1evildude wrote...
And even if you avoid the templars and the criminals out to use you, a mage is always preyed upon by demons. At least when Bethany was with her family, she had supports in the form of her mother and siblings that would help her resist the demons. if she was on the run, she'd be alone.

Says who?  If I could really role play Hawke, she'd have left Kirkwall with Bethany and gone back to Ferelden and its more friendly policies.  The trouble is the total lack of role playing that is offered in DA2.

[thats1evildude]

 That's nice. Except, as other people have pointed out, Bethany doesn't want to run anymore.

So are you going to fight the templars and your sister? Are you going to abandon your mother in Kirkwall or force her yet again to go on the run? Leave behind all the riches from the Deep Roads expedition?

Exactly how much are you willing to sacrifice just to keep Bethany out of the Circle?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 août 2011 - 11:05 .

[IanPolaris]

thats1evildude wrote...

 That's nice. Except, as other people have pointed out, Bethany doesn't want to run anymore.
So are you going to fight the templars and your sister? Are you going to abandon your mother in Kirkwall or force her yet again to go on the run? Leave behind all the riches from the Deep Roads expedition?

Your sister isn't going to fight you.  She just is on the verge of giving it all up, but it isn't entirely her decision because she's not the only one affected.  At least you should be given the OPTION (or the entire thing should happen off-screen and you are presented with a fait accompli).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Morroian]

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is this isn't a decision that only affects Bethany and Bethany seems too idealistic to see it. We know the Templars in Kirkwall don't follow the rules, and Hawke is a rapidly rising start (and new High Noble (Amell)) which makes him a perfect threat to Meredith's unofficial rule of Kirkwall, and that makes Bethany the perfect means of exortion.....something that Meredith quite blatently uses in Act III if you try to refuse her and Bethany is in the circle.

What? It happens when you get back from the deep roads, Hawke is not a noble or rising star yet, Meredith is not a dictator etc etc