250 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

IanPolaris wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

 That's nice. Except, as other people have pointed out, Bethany doesn't want to run anymore.
So are you going to fight the templars and your sister? Are you going to abandon your mother in Kirkwall or force her yet again to go on the run? Leave behind all the riches from the Deep Roads expedition?

Your sister isn't going to fight you.  She just is on the verge of giving it all up, but it isn't entirely her decision because she's not the only one affected.  At least you should be given the OPTION (or the entire thing should happen off-screen and you are presented with a fait accompli).

-Polaris

Aye. I agree with that.

And I have to say I'm a bit irritated how willing people are to send Bethany into the worst circle in Thedas after they wittnessed what happens there on a regular basis.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 22 août 2011 - 11:07 .

[thats1evildude]

IanPolaris wrote...

Your sister isn't going to fight you.

She might, for Leandra's sake. For her own sake, as well. And for yours, if she believes that is what's best.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 août 2011 - 11:09 .

[IanPolaris]

Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is this isn't a decision that only affects Bethany and Bethany seems too idealistic to see it. We know the Templars in Kirkwall don't follow the rules, and Hawke is a rapidly rising start (and new High Noble (Amell)) which makes him a perfect threat to Meredith's unofficial rule of Kirkwall, and that makes Bethany the perfect means of exortion.....something that Meredith quite blatently uses in Act III if you try to refuse her and Bethany is in the circle.

What? It happens when you get back from the deep roads, Hawke is not a noble or rising star yet, Meredith is not a dictator etc etc

Actually Leandra had her title restored when Hawke was in the Deep Roads.  True Hawke has to use his money to buy the mansion back but he HAS this money at this point (or at least a good part of it that he could carry).  More than enough for a lifetime of luxury away from Kirkwall.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

thats1evildude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Your sister isn't going to fight you.

She might, for Leandra's sake. For your sake. For her own.

No she won't.  She might not help you, but there is no way she actually fights you.

-Polaris

[t0mm06]

GavrielKay wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...
And even if you avoid the templars and the criminals out to use you, a mage is always preyed upon by demons. At least when Bethany was with her family, she had supports in the form of her mother and siblings that would help her resist the demons. if she was on the run, she'd be alone.

Says who?  If I could really role play Hawke, she'd have left Kirkwall with Bethany and gone back to Ferelden and its more friendly policies.  The trouble is the total lack of role playing that is offered in DA2.

sorry but Hawke not being able to go to ferelden, is a lack of role play is so unfair on bioware! did you complain that the warden didnt have the choice to escape to Orlais? because thats what one of my wardens would have done, he would have ran to Orlais to gather the rest of the wardens, and let ferelden burn under the blight. 

No Hawke staying in Kirkwall and not running back to ferelden isnt a 'lack of role playing' any more then any RPG that has a story.

[whykikyouwhy]

GavrielKay wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...
And even if you avoid the templars and the criminals out to use you, a mage is always preyed upon by demons. At least when Bethany was with her family, she had supports in the form of her mother and siblings that would help her resist the demons. if she was on the run, she'd be alone.

Says who?  If I could really role play Hawke, she'd have left Kirkwall with Bethany and gone back to Ferelden and its more friendly policies.  The trouble is the total lack of role playing that is offered in DA2.

I'm all for role-playing, but you have a game that has a confined space - it all takes place in and around Kirkwall because that's the story that is being told. So you won't have the option to go to Fereldan, as nice of a trip that might be. And having this story doesn't remove the ability to make Hawke your own - it just dictates the place, the people, some of the key events. All the rest is you.

If you want full freedom role-playing, that might be best executed in a PnP setting. When you have a video game, you are going to have certain boundaries. The full range of all the possible scenarios would be nearly impossible to account for.

TobiTobsen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

 That's nice. Except, as other people have pointed out, Bethany doesn't want to run anymore.
So are you going to fight the templars and your sister? Are you going to abandon your mother in Kirkwall or force her yet again to go on the run? Leave behind all the riches from the Deep Roads expedition?

Your sister isn't going to fight you.  She just is on the verge of giving it all up, but it isn't entirely her decision because she's not the only one affected.  At least you should be given the OPTION (or the entire thing should happen off-screen and you are presented with a fait accompli).

-Polaris

Aye. I agree with that.

And I have to say I'm a bit irritated how willing people are to send Bethany into the worst circle in Thedas after they wittnessed what happens there on a regular basis.

It's not willingness. Hawke isn't standing there saying "wow, Bethany really irritates the heck out of me. She snores at night and really isn't that nice of a sister, I should let the Templars take her." The way it looked to me is this (and I've said it before, but here you go) - You come back from the Deep Roads and the templars already have Bethany in mage robes and are ready to trundle her out of the house. Your mother is in tears and beside herself. Bethany is willing to go because it's the path of least resistance and possibly the one way she can save her family. To fight might mean Leandra or Hawke will be killed, so she goes willingly. And that is where Hawke opts to allow it, not with a light heart, but with a heavy one. Because they have been running from this for years now. The most important thing for both Hawke and her sister is Leandra - that's why they broke into the estate, that's why they were indentured servants for a year. At that point with the templars, the decision is for both to let Leandra live.

[thats1evildude]

IanPolaris wrote...

No she won't.  She might not help you, but there is no way she actually fights you.

-Polaris

You think so? You don't think she'd raise a hand against you if you tried to force her to flee Kirkwall? I think she would do exactly that, if it meant keeping Leandra from having to go on the run again. And I don't think you have any special insight into Bethany's character that I lack.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 22 août 2011 - 11:21 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

t0mm06 wrote...

sorry but Hawke not being able to go to ferelden, is a lack of role play is so unfair on bioware! did you complain that the warden didnt have the choice to escape to Orlais? because thats what one of my wardens would have done, he would have ran to Orlais to gather the rest of the wardens, and let ferelden burn under the blight. 

No Hawke staying in Kirkwall and not running back to ferelden isnt a 'lack of role playing' any more then any RPG that has a story.

Agreed. The real lack of roleplay was that Bioware never gave me any intelligent or sane reason for staying in Kirkwall in the first place, especially after first meeting Gamlen and finding out there is no more family estate or fortune.

[IanPolaris]

thats1evildude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No she won't.  She might not help you, but there is no way she actually fights you.

-Polaris

You think so? You don't think she'd raise a hand against you if you tried to force her to flee Kirkwall? I think she would do exactly that, if it meant keeping Leandra from having to go on the run again. And I don't think you have any special insight into Bethany's character that I lack.

You're wrong about that.  Even at the very end, when (if) you betray all the mages, side with Meredith and agree that your own sister has to be annuled, she won't lift a finger to stop you.  She won't even help the mages attack you just before.

-Polaris

[whykikyouwhy]

IanPolaris wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No she won't.  She might not help you, but there is no way she actually fights you.

-Polaris

You think so? You don't think she'd raise a hand against you if you tried to force her to flee Kirkwall? I think she would do exactly that, if it meant keeping Leandra from having to go on the run again. And I don't think you have any special insight into Bethany's character that I lack.

You're wrong about that.  Even at the very end, when (if) you betray all the mages, side with Meredith and agree that your own sister has to be annuled, she won't lift a finger to stop you.  She won't even help the mages attack you just before.

-Polaris

In your scenario there, Leandra is already gone. There is no need for Bethany to refute. She would, I think, stand up against Hawke when Leandra was alive and her life was at risk.

Granted, that is head canon. But that's really what we're talking about here, aren't we?

And to flat out say thats1evildude is "wrong" is just wrong.

[TobiTobsen]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

It's not willingness. Hawke isn't standing there saying "wow, Bethany really irritates the heck out of me. She snores at night and really isn't that nice of a sister, I should let the Templars take her." The way it looked to me is this (and I've said it before, but here you go) - You come back from the Deep Roads and the templars already have Bethany in mage robes and are ready to trundle her out of the house. Your mother is in tears and beside herself. Bethany is willing to go because it's the path of least resistance and possibly the one way she can save her family. To fight might mean Leandra or Hawke will be killed, so she goes willingly. And that is where Hawke opts to allow it, not with a light heart, but with a heavy one. Because they have been running from this for years now. The most important thing for both Hawke and her sister is Leandra - that's why they broke into the estate, that's why they were indentured servants for a year. At that point with the templars, the decision is for both to let Leandra live.

Meh... I don't think we will find common ground in this point. But it's interesting to see what other people think about it, even if I don't agree.

But I will call it a day for now. It's getting late and I'm having problems to express my thoughts in english.

[t0mm06]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

sorry but Hawke not being able to go to ferelden, is a lack of role play is so unfair on bioware! did you complain that the warden didnt have the choice to escape to Orlais? because thats what one of my wardens would have done, he would have ran to Orlais to gather the rest of the wardens, and let ferelden burn under the blight. 

No Hawke staying in Kirkwall and not running back to ferelden isnt a 'lack of role playing' any more then any RPG that has a story.

Agreed. The real lack of roleplay was that Bioware never gave me any intelligent or sane reason for staying in Kirkwall in the first place, especially after first meeting Gamlen and finding out there is no more family estate or fortune.

i will agree with this. i didnt midn staying in kirkwall, but there should have been a better reason then 'we have an uncle who has no money and is a bastard'  maybe if at the start of the gane it was the smallest templar power in the free marches, (as meridith was fairly new by the sounds of some of the npc dialouge) this would have been a good way of also showing the increased  hold the templars had over the city thoughout the years

[Sepewrath]

GavrielKay wrote...

Whether Hawke had any real chance of defeating the Templars or not, depriving the player of the opportunity to try just prevents role playing. If you want to play a cautious pragmatic Hawke then fine, but I wanted to play a Hawke who hated the Templars and the circle atrocities and would try to keep Bethany out of there at all costs, including over her own stated wishes to avoid trouble.

If you're going to put the scene in, then put in the choices to go with it. Otherwise just have Gamlen tell Hawke "gee, they took Bethany and I couldn't stop them."

So the fact that Shepard cant say "Nope, I don't want to fight any Reapers" prevents role playing? Does the fact that your Warden cant be on the same boat to the Free Marches as Hawke, prevent role playing? Does the fact that there isn't an option for Cloud to say he is not fighting some guy with a 10ft sword, not allowing role playing? You cant do whatever you want, role playing game or not, that is literally impossible.

And if they had skipped the scene, you would be complaining about her just disappearing off screen, so you propose a no win situation for them.

Modifié par Sepewrath, 22 août 2011 - 11:37 .

[GavrielKay]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I'm all for role-playing, but you have a game that has a confined space - it all takes place in and around Kirkwall because that's the story that is being told. So you won't have the option to go to Fereldan, as nice of a trip that might be. And having this story doesn't remove the ability to make Hawke your own - it just dictates the place, the people, some of the key events. All the rest is you.

Which is why I think the whole scene should be dropped and Hawke should just hear from Gamlen or a letter from Bethany that she's been taken while Hawke was away.

They present the scene as if you should be able to do something and then don't let you do it.  If the game must proceed a certain way in order to serve the story, then it should be presented such that it doesn't break immersion.

Many players would not care whether Bethany objects to being saved from the Gallows.  The place is so corrupt and dangerous that you'd have to be nuts to allow anyone to be taken there.  We are forced to let Grace go free, but unable to stop Cullen from walking out with Bethany?  That's just silly.

[IanPolaris]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

In your scenario there, Leandra is already gone. There is no need for Bethany to refute. She would, I think, stand up against Hawke when Leandra was alive and her life was at risk.

Granted, that is head canon. But that's really what we're talking about here, aren't we?

And to flat out say thats1evildude is "wrong" is just wrong.

No we aren't.  Your head canon isn't mine.  I should have been allowed to fight the Templars when they came for Bethany.  Otherwise don't include the scene.  If it's fight and "game over" that would be fine (many other games include such options including TW2).

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Sepewrath wrote...
And if they had skipped the scene, you would be complaining about her just disappearing off screen, so you propose a no win situation for them.

Don't put words in my mouth. 

No doubt some people would complain if you handed them a million dollars that it wasn't in small bills, but I would not complain that a predefined storyline was carried out while Hawke was away.

No good reason was presented why Hawke shouldn't fight to keep Bethany out of the Gallows.  Bethany not wanting to get into a fight just isn't enough reason.  There's lots of fights in the game we'd just as soon avoid, but there we are fighting them.  There has to be a better reason for not saving your sister from being in a place where mages are raped, Tranquiled and whipped with scary frequency.

[Wulfram]

Neminea wrote...

They don't do it out of "evil" they (at least Cullen) think they are doing the only thing they can to protect people -and-  mages from said mages. Their job isn't inherently wrong, some of it's execution is. They came to arrest Bethany, would you kill a cop for arresting someone you know? Even if it was a corrupt one, or in a corrupt society, and whoever is being arrested didn't do anything wrong most people probably wouldn't, since it would cause more problems then it solves.

Most people wouldn't fight dragons either.  I probably wouldn't fight corrupt cops arresting someone who didn't do anything wrong, because I have neither the ability nor the courage.  But Hawke does.

I'm not saying that all Templars are evil and deserve to die.  I'm saying that if they try to kidnap a member of Hawke's family, Hawke is entitled to use what force is necessary to stop them - and on other occasions appears far from shy about going up against Templars.

And really, could you justify a non abbrasive hawke killing a bunch of guys who can easily be good guys trying to help, and have your mother and sister on the run -again- even if your sister doesn't want to run anymore? Going against Bethany in this case would only show you have no respect for her, nor trust her to make her own decisions.

Mum can stay behind with the money.  Or go back to Ferelden with the money if there's a risk of the Templars persecuting her.  And if Bethany really wants to go to the circle, she can make that decision without Templars pointing swords at her.

[Aradace]

Even after reading the OPs post several times and sort of understanding where he's coming from, I still for some reason see this as yet another "Hawke Sucks, give me back my Warden" thread. It's clearly not what the OP intended, but I can't help but get that vibe from it.

[whykikyouwhy]

IanPolaris wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

In your scenario there, Leandra is already gone. There is no need for Bethany to refute. She would, I think, stand up against Hawke when Leandra was alive and her life was at risk.

Granted, that is head canon. But that's really what we're talking about here, aren't we?

And to flat out say thats1evildude is "wrong" is just wrong.

No we aren't.  Your head canon isn't mine.  I should have been allowed to fight the Templars when they came for Bethany.  Otherwise don't include the scene.  If it's fight and "game over" that would be fine (many other games include such options including TW2).

-Polaris

Actually I think we are talking about head canon - your head canon and my head canon, and the head canon of everyone else invested in this thread. It's head canon and a bit of expectation mixed in. We've each gone into this game expecting certain things and in our minds, our Hawkes should have been allowed x, y, or z. But what those letters entail differs for each of us.

There are a lot of "should have's" that you could argue should have been included in the game. As a mage, Hawke should have been allowed more pants options. Maybe I wanted Hawke to romp around Kirkwall in purple tights, but she couldn't. And maybe I wanted Hawke to slap Petrice in Act 1, but she couldn't. It's those endless variables that are at stake.

How do you account for every possible tangent, every possible option that each and every player wants without sacrficing the story that needs to be told? I don't think you can. And while I'm not a writer or a game developer, or anyone with that knowledge, I don't see how that is remotely feasible.

I think the scene was fine and should have been included. For me, it was poignant. It was a small slap in the face of reality in Kirkwall. It was something to renew Hawke's drive to make things right for Leandra, as much as she could. And it made the reunion between Hawke and Bethany all the more moving when Act 3 came around.

[Sepewrath]

GavrielKay wrote...
No good reason was presented why Hawke shouldn't fight to keep Bethany out of the Gallows.  Bethany not wanting to get into a fight just isn't enough reason.  There's lots of fights in the game we'd just as soon avoid, but there we are fighting them.  There has to be a better reason for not saving your sister from being in a place where mages are raped, Tranquiled and whipped with scary frequency.

So what your saying is a pre defined story element is fine, as long as Hawke isn't there? That Hawke should have the power to rule over all creation as long their present? And a good reason, what about the fact that you would be bringing down the Templars on your whole family, you would be forced to flee, with your elderly mother and uncle whose life you just ruined, with no money, besides what you could carry outside of the Deep Roads,  no connections and the Templar's specifically after you? All that is fine as long Hawke gets to exert power huh?

I know people got use to god mode in Origins, but it was stupid in a lot cases there and it would equally dumb in this situation. Hawke is not some all powerful god who can do anything they want, with no repercussions. Killing those Templar's would either be something ridicuously ignored, like many things in Origins was or it would be something that would irreparably damaged the direction of the plot.

[Wulfram]

I don't think Hawke being there was a necessarily a problem. What they needed to do was have enough Templars present, or established as nearby, that the situation could realistically be considered helpless.

edit: Remember that by this point Hawke may well have killed a whole patrol of Templars in defence of some random apostates.  And has certainly killed loads of Templars on behalf of Anders and Karl.

It's like at the end of the game with Orsino going Harvester. The situation was supposed to be hopeless, but since what we see is just a few Templars after having just defeated a whole load in a really easy fight it doesn't come off that way, so Orsino's actions just seem random and stupid rather than motivated by despair.

Modifié par Wulfram, 23 août 2011 - 12:13 .

[Sepewrath]

I could agree with that, that is the shortcoming of video games, especially RPG's. They want to make your character feel powerful in gameplay, you can defeat an entire army alone, you can actually do that in Origins. But at the same time, you had to be saved from the tower, because the plot demanded you need saving or demands Orsino goes crazy.

Hawke defeats a bunch of Templar's, Darkspawn, Golem's etc. even if they had every Templar in Thedas there, it couldn't be sold as hopeless, given what you've done. The best they can do is provide a reason, because even if Hawke wasn't there, what is to stop Hawke from storming the Gallows to go get her? What's the difference, either way, your fighting a bunch of Templar's.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

t0mm06 wrote...


i will agree with this. i didnt midn staying in kirkwall, but there should have been a better reason then 'we have an uncle who has no money and is a bastard'  maybe if at the start of the gane it was the smallest templar power in the free marches, (as meridith was fairly new by the sounds of some of the npc dialouge) this would have been a good way of also showing the increased  hold the templars had over the city thoughout the years

That would have been better. It would have made much more sense, and given us a logical reason why Kirkwall, out of many cities and nations, was the most sensible choice to go to. As it stands, there was none, and it's another big reason I had a hard time connecting with or roleplaying Hawke. or even taking them seriously. because Act 1 was a serious WFT all over, no matter what Hawke's class.

First off, Leandra is a selfish idiot. She has one, possibly 2, apostate mage children, who have spent their life on the run from templars. Kirkwall happens to be templar central in Eastern Thedas, and the templars there have a pretty bad reputation towards mages. Not only that, but they practically RUN the place. So her bright idea is to take her 1,maybe 2, apostate children into what is basically the lion's den for mages....why? Sure, she's from there, and has family. There is no reason why she and Carver, and non-mage Hawke, can't go. The mage kids? They are grown adults who can catch another boat to another location, then write mom at Uncle Gamlens, and keep in touch, maybe eve Leandra can send them money to help them out.

Instead, Leandra insists on something similar to a German woman living abroad, with two half Jewish kids who are now adults, insisting that her kids come back to germany with her and live with relatives in the Middle of the Third Reich. I see this as incredibly stupid and selfish on leandra's part. Either that, or Hawke is a mama's boy/girl who really needs to cut loose the apron strings and get a grip. Especially if their own freedom/survival is being put in serious jeopardy by holding on to mom.

Still for whatever reason, Hawke decides to go anyway, maybe because he/she, like Leandra, still believe their relatives are wealthy nobles of influence and power, and can hook them up. Ok, so maybe we do have a valid reason for hanging on to mom, though for a Mage Hawke, it's still a weakly valid reason. So they get to Kirkwall, find out they can't get into the city, and to make matters even better, they discover that good ol' Uncle Gammy blew the family fortune, lost the estate, and lives in caveman level squatter's paradise in the city's slums, his only company are the ancient wheels of cheese that have developed sentience. That is your family connection in Kirkwall. That is the high flying lifestyle of leisure and luxury you have endured a months long journey from Gwaren for.

And best of all, in order to snatch up your cockroach infested piece of the Great Kirkwallian Dream, you only need to agree to sell yourself and your sibling into a year long indentured servitude to either a criminal smuggler's gang or a ruthless, cold blooded mercenary company. Not only to get into this hellhole called Kirkwall, but also to pay of your Uncle's gambling and shady debts he incurred during the process of blowing your family fortune and ancestral home, thus pulling his ass out of the fire.

Now.....what's my motivation, exactly? At the end of Act 1, Iwas still asking that question, and unfortunately, the game never gave me an answer other than being a complete and utter tool. They should have developed a much more compelling reason for Hawke to want to go through all that trouble to stay in Kirkwall, when there is far more motive for them not to, and go elsewhere.

[FieryDove]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

(snip)
Now.....what's my motivation, exactly? At the end of Act 1, Iwas still asking that question, and unfortunately, the game never gave me an answer other than being a complete and utter tool. They should have developed a much more compelling reason for Hawke to want to go through all that trouble to stay in Kirkwall, when there is far more motive for them not to, and go elsewhere.

I agree with most everything you said.

After all that remains every single Hawke I made wanted to pack bags and...leave. I couldn't. Why? No one needed me there. Sibling was far far away as a Warden. I had enough and wanted to leave. Ah well.

[Morroian]

GavrielKay wrote...

No good reason was presented why Hawke shouldn't fight to keep Bethany out of the Gallows.  Bethany not wanting to get into a fight just isn't enough reason.  There's lots of fights in the game we'd just as soon avoid, but there we are fighting them.  There has to be a better reason for not saving your sister from being in a place where mages are raped, Tranquiled and whipped with scary frequency.

You're overstating it especially in Act 1 where Meredith hadn't been affected by the Idol as yet and I don't think we even knew of the existence of Ser Alrik at that point. Hawke walked in the door exhausted from the deep roads to be confronted by a squad of templars and his mother there and Bethany telling him not to fight. Not fighting when its quite likley that Bethany and Leandra would have been killed not to mention Hawke is perfectly reasonable.