250 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Aradace wrote...

Even after reading the OP post several times and and sort of understanding where he's coming from, I still for some reason see this as another "Hawke sucks, give me back my Warden" thread.

Given how Zevran looked in Dragon Age 2, I'm sincerely not eager to see my Surana Warden return. As for Hawke, I take issue with the decisions to have Hawke do nothing in scenes where I'd expect a human being to do something. Standing idly by while two men take away your baby sister to a monstrous prison where her kind are being treated in a horrific manner sounds ridiculous to me, and I lose all respect for Hawke since he's capable of fighting yet does nothing. I have no issue with the fact that there's a new protagonist - I take issue with the fact that he continually does nothing throughout the storyline. Hawke's inaction is irritating, not engaging.

[FieryDove]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given how Zevran looked in Dragon Age 2, I'm sincerely not eager to see my Surana Warden return. As for Hawke, I take issue with the decisions to have Hawke do nothing in scenes where I'd expect a human being to do something. Standing idly by while two men take away your baby sister to a monstrous prison where her kind are being treated in a horrific manner sounds ridiculous to me, 

Agreed.

It's also why I do siblings-wardens. Addict or rape/tranquil victim is not a good fate. imho

[Morroian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given how Zevran looked in Dragon Age 2, I'm sincerely not eager to see my Surana Warden return. As for Hawke, I take issue with the decisions to have Hawke do nothing in scenes where I'd expect a human being to do something. Standing idly by while two men take away your baby sister to a monstrous prison where her kind are being treated in a horrific manner sounds ridiculous to me, and I lose all respect for Hawke since he's capable of fighting yet does nothing.

Hawke doesn't stand idly by.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

FieryDove wrote...



I agree with most everything you said.

After all that remains every single Hawke I made wanted to pack bags and...leave. I couldn't. Why? No one needed me there. Sibling was far far away as a Warden. I had enough and wanted to leave. Ah well.

Yeah. After Leandra is dead and your sibling elsewhere in less than pleasant circumstances, there were few reasons I could think of Hawke wanting to stay is their love interest, if they have one. And given that the four main love interests have no real motive or reason to stay in Kirkwall except for Hawke(except maybe Anders, though that would be more Justice side), Hawke might even not really have that motive. Of course, Hawke still does have their wealth, status, titles, and maybe even business, so they certainly have material reasons to remain, and material/practical reasons are as valid as any. For non-Mage Hawke, this is a most plausible motive to remain. Plus, if Bethany was sent to the Circle after act 1, Hawke still has family nearby they will want to protect.

However, for a mage Hawke, it gets alot trickier, because things are alot more complicated. You're an apostate living out in the open, and as act 2 progresses, even with the Qunari in the forefront, you still get info and talk about how Meredith is getting more paranoid and aggressive about mages to the point where even non-mages are feeling threatened. All the money and power won't save you if Meredith decides to bring on a total crackdown. And then there's the Qunari problem. You have an army of hardened, widely feared warriors his keep getting pushed and antagonized by zealots who want to start an open war on them. An army of large horned giants whose philosophy of handling mages involves mutuilitation and leashes. Who, if they decided to attack Kirkwall, could wipe the floor with it's standing forces, templars and guards alike. And as far as siblings go, bethany is long dead, and Carver is either dead, somewhere far away with the Grey Wardens, or has stepped over to the other side and is currently working for your enemy.

The only reason I could see a mage Hawke staying is if the were really intent on mage rebellion/supporting the mage cause with Anders. Yet Hawke has done nothing so far in game that shows they are trying to either start or support any sort of rebellion. At most, he/she frees a few apostates, kills a few templars, but beyond that, nothing. Not even hints that they might be doing this off screen. So I find little to use this as a justification for staying. And am left at the end of Act 2 trying to find a justification for mage Hawke to want to remain in Kirkwall, with little to gain and much more to lose.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Morroian wrote...

You're overstating it especially in Act 1 where Meredith hadn't been affected by the Idol as yet and I don't think we even knew of the existence of Ser Alrik at that point. Hawke walked in the door exhausted from the deep roads to be confronted by a squad of templars and his mother there and Bethany telling him not to fight. Not fighting when its quite likley that Bethany and Leandra would have been killed not to mention Hawke is perfectly reasonable. 

Not really. Even in Act 1, well before mac guffin idol, Cullen and other people in Kirkwall tell you that many people feel meredith is excessively harsh, and even Cullen states that templar support has considerably waned to the meredith's harsher measures.

Not to mention that a stroll through the Gallows, ambient and clickable sounds and dialogue, pretty much indicate that the gallows is a very unpleasant, fearful place to be.

So even then, hawke already has information indicating that the Gallows would not be a great place for bethany to be, if they were concerned for her wellbeing.

[dragonflight288]

I'm just going to add in my own two cents here.

During Act 1, Hawke has absolutely no evidence that the templars are doing anything illegal. He sees oppression and a few desperate starkhaven mages and one insane blood mage. There is nothing that indicates that the templars aren't simply very strict.

He does however, find more and more evidence in Acts 2 and 3 that illegal activity is still going on.

Saying we are sending Bethany to a Circle where we know rapes and torture are going on at the time the templars pick her up makes absolutely no sense. Hawke didn't have that information at the time. All he knew was that Meredith was tough as nails and was quite strict.

Saying Hawke did otherwise is from a metagaming perspective. What we know as gamers is not always the same as what the characters know.

And yes...I'm aware of Alrik's letter when we find Karl made tranquil. So what do we do with it?

Hawke: Elthina, I believe the templars and Meredith are abusing the mages.
Elthina: And what proof do you have?
Hawke: I have this letter here....
Elthina: I see....and what evidence do you have that Karl was not doing anything wrong?
Hawke: ...............

[IanPolaris]

*cough* Karl *cough*

It's illegal to tranquil a harrowed mage, and Hawke finds this out in Act ONE.

-Polaris

[Urzon]

I want to figure out what happened to Aeonar. With all the blood mages and abominations running around in DA2, you would have thought the templar run mage prison would have be discussed at least once or twice.

[Augustei]

Morroian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given how Zevran looked in Dragon Age 2, I'm sincerely not eager to see my Surana Warden return. As for Hawke, I take issue with the decisions to have Hawke do nothing in scenes where I'd expect a human being to do something. Standing idly by while two men take away your baby sister to a monstrous prison where her kind are being treated in a horrific manner sounds ridiculous to me, and I lose all respect for Hawke since he's capable of fighting yet does nothing.

Hawke doesn't stand idly by.

Cullen: Your Sisters going to the circle
Hawke: No shes not!
Bethany: Please dont do anything
Hawke: *Stands idly as the templars leave with his sister*

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 23 août 2011 - 06:08 .

[Urzon]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Morroian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given how Zevran looked in Dragon Age 2, I'm sincerely not eager to see my Surana Warden return. As for Hawke, I take issue with the decisions to have Hawke do nothing in scenes where I'd expect a human being to do something. Standing idly by while two men take away your baby sister to a monstrous prison where her kind are being treated in a horrific manner sounds ridiculous to me, and I lose all respect for Hawke since he's capable of fighting yet does nothing.

Hawke doesn't stand idly by.

Cullen: Your Sisters going to the circle
Hawke: No shes not!
Bethany: Please dont do anything
Hawke: *Stands idly as the templars leave with his sister*

You are right. He does stand idly by. Would have rather him attack Cullen, and Hawke become a fugitive or get arrested for interfering with a templar investigation? I'd personally rather not spend Act 2 in a cell somewhere with a Tal-Vashoth named Bubbles.

[IanPolaris]

Urzon wrote...

You are right. He does stand idly by. Would have rather him attack Cullen, and Hawke become a fugitive or get arrested for interfering with a templar investigation? I'd personally rather not spend Act 2 in a cell somewhere with a Tal-Vashoth named Bubbles.

YES!  Damn skippy I would!  At least I'd like to option to try and rescue my sister and leave the hellhole called Kirkwall with my newfound wealth.  Fereldan would be a very good place to live with an apostate circle.....

-Polaris

[Augustei]

Urzon wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Morroian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given how Zevran looked in Dragon Age 2, I'm sincerely not eager to see my Surana Warden return. As for Hawke, I take issue with the decisions to have Hawke do nothing in scenes where I'd expect a human being to do something. Standing idly by while two men take away your baby sister to a monstrous prison where her kind are being treated in a horrific manner sounds ridiculous to me, and I lose all respect for Hawke since he's capable of fighting yet does nothing.

Hawke doesn't stand idly by.

Cullen: Your Sisters going to the circle
Hawke: No shes not!
Bethany: Please dont do anything
Hawke: *Stands idly as the templars leave with his sister*

You are right. He does stand idly by. Would have rather him attack Cullen, and Hawke become a fugitive or get arrested for interfering with a templar investigation?

Well if Hawke is fine with fighting the templars at the end of act 3 when they called an annulment (if sided with mages) when those were mostly a bunch of random mages he never met. Why wouldn't he fight the templars to protect his sister?

Hawke wouldn't need to spend time in a cell, just kill the few templars there and get the hell out of that "cesspool of a city" as the arishok accurately put it, then spend the rest of the game in Ostwick =D

[Urzon]

Well if Hawke is fine with fighting the templars at the end of act 3 when they called an annulment (if sided with mages) when those were mostly a bunch of random mages he never met. Why wouldn't he fight the templars to protect his sister?

Hawke wouldn't need to spend time in a cell, just kill the few templars there and get the hell out of that "cesspool of a city" as the arishok accurately put it, then spend the rest of the game in Ostwick =D

Because Hawke for Act 1 didn't know the full extint of the level of cruelty the templars in Kirkwall had like he does in Act 3. It is only threw the years of living in Kirkwall does Hawke find out all of this stuff. Gamers get kinda blinded to that since metagaming and all.

That and us gamers have to take all of Hawkes actions with a grain of salt, because he isn't OUR Warden. Hawke is mostly a sad plot device to set up DA3. Our Warden on the other hand, is a character we make ourselves to hopefully (that's the keyword) set up the whole game series, though you can't really see much in DA2. Pray!! Pray!! You see more in DA3. 

[IanPolaris]

Urzon wrote...

Well if Hawke is fine with fighting the templars at the end of act 3 when they called an annulment (if sided with mages) when those were mostly a bunch of random mages he never met. Why wouldn't he fight the templars to protect his sister?

Hawke wouldn't need to spend time in a cell, just kill the few templars there and get the hell out of that "cesspool of a city" as the arishok accurately put it, then spend the rest of the game in Ostwick =D

Because Hawke for Act 1 didn't know the full extint of the level of cruelty the templars in Kirkwall had like he does in Act 3. It is only threw the years of living in Kirkwall does Hawke find out all of this stuff. Gamers get kinda blinded to that since metagaming and all.

We know that the Templars illegally make mages tranquil even after being harrowed.  We know they employ unreasonably corporeal punishment (at least you do if you talk to a few people in the gallows) and the codex entries (common knowledge) of Meridith even before the idol make her out (accurately it turns out) to be a harridan.  That's more than enough to want to keep my sister as far away from them as possible.

That and us gamers have to take all of Hawkes actions with a grain of salt, because he isn't OUR Warden. Hawke is mostly a sad plot device to set up DA3. Our Warden on the other hand, is a character we make ourselves to hopefully (that's the keyword) set up the whole game series, though you can't really see much in DA2. Pray!! Pray!! You see more in DA3. 

If Hawke isn't our character then what's the bloody point of playing the game? (LISTEN UP BIOWARE!)

-Polaris

[TobiTobsen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Well if Hawke is fine with fighting the templars at the end of act 3 when they called an annulment (if sided with mages) when those were mostly a bunch of random mages he never met. Why wouldn't he fight the templars to protect his sister?

Hawke wouldn't need to spend time in a cell, just kill the few templars there and get the hell out of that "cesspool of a city" as the arishok accurately put it, then spend the rest of the game in Ostwick =D

Because Hawke for Act 1 didn't know the full extint of the level of cruelty the templars in Kirkwall had like he does in Act 3. It is only threw the years of living in Kirkwall does Hawke find out all of this stuff. Gamers get kinda blinded to that since metagaming and all.

We know that the Templars illegally make mages tranquil even after being harrowed.  We know they employ unreasonably corporeal punishment (at least you do if you talk to a few people in the gallows) and the codex entries (common knowledge) of Meridith even before the idol make her out (accurately it turns out) to be a harridan.  That's more than enough to want to keep my sister as far away from them as possible.

Is the meeting between the male elf and his now tranquiled lover in act 1 or 2?

Oh... and let's not forget that Karras is "visiting" Alain at night and threatens to make him tranquil if he tells it to anybody.

[FieryDove]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Yeah. After Leandra is dead and your sibling elsewhere in less than pleasant circumstances, there were few reasons I could think of Hawke wanting to stay is their love interest, if they have one. And given that the four main love interests have no real motive or reason to stay in Kirkwall except for Hawke(except maybe Anders, though that would be more Justice side), Hawke might even not really have that motive. Of course, Hawke still does have their wealth, status, titles, and maybe even business, so they certainly have material reasons to remain, and material/practical reasons are as valid as any. For non-Mage Hawke, this is a most plausible motive to remain. Plus, if Bethany was sent to the Circle after act 1, Hawke still has family nearby they will want to protect.

I would have left if given the choice. Give the estate/anything else to bodan and left a stipend for dear uncle. Can't leave the estate to him he would lose it the next night in dice game. Status and titles didn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things for any of my characters.

As I said siblings always wardens, they are far far away. I just wanted to go after that...even before but stayed for *Mom*. Ah well.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

If Hawke isn't our character then what's the bloody point of playing the game? (LISTEN UP BIOWARE!)

-Polaris

To play Hawke's story, just like how DA:O was playing the Warden's story.

"I don't want to be a Warden."
"BUT BEING A WARDEN IS GREAT"
"I still don't wa- OH GOD THIS IS WONDERFUL, WARDENS ARE THE BESTEST. Wait a minute, what the hell? Did I just say that?"
"WHEN YOU'RE DONE DOING THIS, WHAT WILL YOU DO?"
"I'll leave the Wardens, I never liked them and said I wanted to run away to Orlais at the start of the game."
*Awakening* "GREETINGS WARDEN-COMMANDER"
"God dammit."

[Aradace]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Even after reading the OP post several times and and sort of understanding where he's coming from, I still for some reason see this as another "Hawke sucks, give me back my Warden" thread.

Given how Zevran looked in Dragon Age 2, I'm sincerely not eager to see my Surana Warden return. As for Hawke, I take issue with the decisions to have Hawke do nothing in scenes where I'd expect a human being to do something. Standing idly by while two men take away your baby sister to a monstrous prison where her kind are being treated in a horrific manner sounds ridiculous to me, and I lose all respect for Hawke since he's capable of fighting yet does nothing. I have no issue with the fact that there's a new protagonist - I take issue with the fact that he continually does nothing throughout the storyline. Hawke's inaction is irritating, not engaging.

I dont have this problem seeing as how I almost always (unless doing my solo runs) have Bethany become a Warden.  Beyond that, any "idle" time in between acts are justified IMO.  Even the protagonist deserves down time.  And besides, it's kind of implied in some dialogs that he/she isnt completely idle during this time.

For example, when you talk to Isabela during Act 2 for the first time and you choose the snarky response of "Isnt that what you said last time?" It's kind of implied here that Hawke went with her on this particular "adventure" to help her out.  So saying he/she is completely idle in between acts is a bit of a stretch.  

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If Hawke isn't our character then what's the bloody point of playing the game? (LISTEN UP BIOWARE!)

-Polaris

To play Hawke's story, just like how DA:O was playing the Warden's story.

"I don't want to be a Warden."
"BUT BEING A WARDEN IS GREAT"
"I still don't wa- OH GOD THIS IS WONDERFUL, WARDENS ARE THE BESTEST. Wait a minute, what the hell? Did I just say that?"
"WHEN YOU'RE DONE DOING THIS, WHAT WILL YOU DO?"
"I'll leave the Wardens, I never liked them and said I wanted to run away to Orlais at the start of the game."
*Awakening* "GREETINGS WARDEN-COMMANDER"
"God dammit."

You were told from the get go that you had to be a Grey Warden.  It's what the game was about.  You were NOT told from get get go that you could only play Hawke and that was not the expectation of DRAGON AGE TWO.

So your point is invalid.  The Warden was our character.  Hawke is not. Since Hawke is not, why play him?

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

You were told from the get go that you had to be a Grey Warden. It's what the game was about. You were NOT told from get get go that you could only play Hawke and that was not the expectation of DRAGON AGE TWO.

Wait, you weren't told that the story was Hawke's story? That's not what I remember...

[whykikyouwhy]

@IanPolaris - I don't know that the Warden is any more "our" character than Hawke is. There may be more fluidity to the setting of DA:O and therefore the semblence of broader role-playing, but you are still moving along with a set story with set outcomes, even with some varyiances. The Warden is going to stop the archdemon - that occurs no matter what. Hawke is going to defeat Meredith -that happens no matter what.

If you feel that your opportunity to "role-play" was stifled in some manner and thus you could not invest in Hawke, I don't know that such is Bioware's sole fault. I, for one, felt more immersed in DA2 than I did DA:O and therefore I felt I had an invested interest in Hawke.

So I take it then, with your query of "why play him" that you won't be playing future DLCs?

[Aradace]

Xilizhra wrote...

You were told from the get go that you had to be a Grey Warden. It's what the game was about. You were NOT told from get get go that you could only play Hawke and that was not the expectation of DRAGON AGE TWO.

Wait, you weren't told that the story was Hawke's story? That's not what I remember...

I agree, it was advertised months before hand that you could ONLY be a human.  And that his/her last name would be Hawke.  And that you were going to be escaping from Lothering just as the blight hits.  Not anyone's fault but your own for not staying in the information loop.

Modifié par Aradace, 23 août 2011 - 02:22 .

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

You were told from the get go that you had to be a Grey Warden. It's what the game was about. You were NOT told from get get go that you could only play Hawke and that was not the expectation of DRAGON AGE TWO.

Wait, you weren't told that the story was Hawke's story? That's not what I remember...

Dragon Age TWO

Enough said.

-Polaris

[Aradace]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You were told from the get go that you had to be a Grey Warden. It's what the game was about. You were NOT told from get get go that you could only play Hawke and that was not the expectation of DRAGON AGE TWO.

Wait, you weren't told that the story was Hawke's story? That's not what I remember...

Dragon Age TWO

Enough said.

-Polaris

Again, YOUR fault for not keeping up with the information fed to us prior to release.  If you had stayed in the loop, you'd have known that you could ONLY play as Hawke.  ONLY play as a Human, and ONLY play as a character escaping Lothering.  You cant blame someone else for your inability to keep up with information and flying into a game blind.

[whykikyouwhy]

Since when does "two" imply, without a doubt, a direct sequel? Oftentimes, it reflects something in the same world or universe, which DA2 delivers.

Also, I doubt that players and devs alike would want to have the same structure/config of a game. Most folks on either side of the spectrum want some change/enhancements/etc, sometimes in just story and sometimes in actual gameplay. I saw all of that.