250 réponses à ce sujet

[Aradace]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aradace wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

So you're seriously suggesting that one should read possible spoilers on the forums before buying and playing a game where story is half the fun?

Yes I do.  It's a trade off.  If you want information, then you need to suck it up that there could possibly be some spoilers.  Otherwise, it's kind of your fault when you fly into a game blind expecting one thing and getting another.  Not saying you dont have a right to be upset.  Some folks dont like the game.  What Im saying is that if your disappointment is based off of being willfully ignorant to information put right in front of you, then it's your fault, not the company's.

Saying you have to go to the company forums first before buying a game (esp if you don't want spoilers) is unreasonable at least to me.  I think most would find this to be an unreasonable requirement.

-Polaris

It's not a "requirement".  It's "prudent thinking".  You know.  Something a smart consumer would do anyway.

[GavrielKay]

Aradace wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

So you're seriously suggesting that one should read possible spoilers on the forums before buying and playing a game where story is half the fun?

Yes I do.  It's a trade off.  If you want information, then you need to suck it up that there could possibly be some spoilers.  Otherwise, it's kind of your fault when you fly into a game blind expecting one thing and getting another.  Not saying you dont have a right to be upset.  Some folks dont like the game.  What Im saying is that if your disappointment is based off of being willfully ignorant to information put right in front of you, then it's your fault, not the company's.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. 

But I think if a game is set up so that your best chance of not being disappointed is to read spoilers on a forum (that is for game owners, mostly, not prospects) before purchasing and playing it, then you've already lost.  I don't know about anyone else, but I try to do at least one playthrough without visitng the forums at all - so that I can be intrigued by the story and surprised by its twists.

DA2 succeeds in being a mostly entertaining time sink.  It fails in feeling like a worthy sequel to DAO.  It fails to come close to value for money of DAO and it fails to feel like I was truly role playing a champion of Kirkwall through their rise to power.  That's my opinion.

[happy_daiz]

Wasn't Hawke's mug splattered all over the DA site long before DA2 came out? 

[Aradace]

happy_daiz wrote...

Wasn't Hawke's mug splattered all over the DA site long before DA2 came out? 

Indeed it was.  But some folks still try claiming ignorance as a way of blaming BW for the game.  As I said, Im not disputing their right to be upset with the game.  Im just disputing them using ignorance as a justification for it.

[GavrielKay]

Aradace wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Wasn't Hawke's mug splattered all over the DA site long before DA2 came out? 

Indeed it was.  But some folks still try claiming ignorance as a way of blaming BW for the game.  As I said, Im not disputing their right to be upset with the game.  Im just disputing them using ignorance as a justification for it.

Geez. 

Knowing that a character named Hawke was going to be your PC is different than knowing they'd be railroaded at every turn, subject to repetetive maps, and generally unable to do much of anything to change the world they are stuck in.

You shouldn't have to read an owners' forum complete with plot spoilers to find out that a game is so different from its namesake that you'll probably find it disappointing.  Mostly, because it would be nice if they hadn't so diluted the brand in making said sequel.

A combination of advertising and calling it a sequel created expectations.  Expectations are good.  They drive business and get players excited.  You shouldn't have to start with the notion that a game is so likely to disappoint that you want to check the forums to see if you're wrong before buying the game.  Because that's the only reason I'd go to a forum and subject myself to spoilers before purchasing something.  Only if I was unlikely to buy it but hoping to be pleasantly surprised by others' comments would it make sense to first read spoilers.

If you expect the game to be great, because its predecessor was great and its publisher has a good reputation, then why on earth would you spoil it for yourself by reading a forum first?

So, no, I don't think it is at all reasonable to blame the consumer who was disappointed by purchasing a game that by all rights should have been great but turned out to be only decent because they didn't first read the owners' forums.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 23 août 2011 - 05:56 .

[Aradace]

@Gavriel - Now the re-used maps, I'll agree on because it was never mentioned anywhere (to my knowledge) that this is the route they were going. Had they done so, I'd still have bought the game but would have been less "irritated" by that particular little flaw.

-"If you expect the game to be great, because its predecessor was great and it's publisher has a good reputation, then why on earth would you spoil it for yourself by reading a forum first?"-

So that you know what to expect and not end up quite as disappointed as you and a few others are?  And possibly saving yourself some cash in the process?  Again, something a SMART consumer would do.

Modifié par Aradace, 23 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[GavrielKay]

Aradace wrote...

@Gavriel - Now the re-used maps, I'll agree on because it was never mentioned anywhere (to my knowledge) that this is the route they were going. Had they done so, I'd still have bought the game but would have been less "irritated" by that particular little flaw.

-If you expect the game to be great, because its predecessor was great and it's publisher has a good reputation, then why on earth would you spoil it for yourself by reading a forum first?-

So that you know what to expect and not waste your time droning over it here?

This thread is about Hawke feeling useless and having no active choices.  I made comments in a thread to the effect of agreeing with that notion and being disappointed because its namesake game didn't feel that way to me.  So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not wasting my time but enjoying a discussion and hoping that somewhere, there's a person at BioWare who's taking note of this sort of feedback and trying to make sure that DA3 etc don't have the same issues.

Why are you wasting your time arguing with me?

[Aradace]

Because you're still using ignorance to try and justify your stance?

[GavrielKay]

Aradace wrote...

Again, something a SMART consumer would do.

A SMART consumer of a refrigerator would read every last review they could get their hands on, as well as going to find one in the store to see if it looked/felt/fit right.

A SMART consumer of an RPG style video game that was story based would NOT go to the forums and have the story ruined for them before purchasing the game.

[Aradace]

GavrielKay wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Again, something a SMART consumer would do.

A SMART consumer of a refrigerator would read every last review they could get their hands on, as well as going to find one in the store to see if it looked/felt/fit right.

A SMART consumer of an RPG style video game that was story based would NOT go to the forums and have the story ruined for them before purchasing the game.

really? because ive been playing RPGs I'll wager since before you were a twinkle in your father's eye.  And every game.  EVERY game, regardless of genre, I do extensive research on (even if it means minor spoilers but I do try to avoid them if possible) before purchasing them.  You cant create a double standard here just to fit and justify your point.  Which you may argue that Im trying to do, which Im not.  It is what it is.  You're either a smart consumer, or you're not.  The end.

I have no problem with anyone else's reasoning for not liking DA2 or having issues with it.  Why? Because I can guarantee you a good portion of those folks played the demo, read all the forum info given to us, etc. etc. and then was still unsatisfied by the product.  That, I have no problem with because they made an educated purchase.  You, and Ian on the otherhand, you try and claim ignorance and use it as some sort of lame justification as to why you feel the way you do.  

If you didnt have such blind faith in a company, you'd allow yourself to be educated before making a purchase like this.  Is it wrong to have such blind faith? Not exactly.  But is it naive as hell? Hell yes.  

[Rovay]

And so despite my attempts at peace, here we are, pointlessly bickering again...

Oh well, might as well enjoy it.

[Aradace]

Ian's not even in the picture anymore as far as Im concerned. And Im starting to think Gavriel is the same way. Her whole post of "Why are you wasting your time arguing with me?" is reaaaaaalllly starting to have some merit to it lol.
You just really cant win when someone is dead set on remaining ignorant. *shrugs* Oh well.

Modifié par Aradace, 23 août 2011 - 06:21 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

GavrielKay wrote...

The justification for being a Warden in DAO was better done than the justification for being in Kirkwall in DA2, IMHO anyway. Where DAO insisted that you follow the plot railroad it tended to have more reasonable presentation.

And the Warden could tackle crazy odds if they wanted to - like rescuing Anora. It looked hopeless, and the Warden could actually be captured, but you had the opportunity to fight your way through and succeed if you were clever.

Hawke rarely had the opportunity to feel clever.

I know DA2 had a story to tell, but I wish they had told it in such a way that I felt I could role play too.

I mean, really, there were two scenes that weren't even "real" but just Varric telling stories. They went out of their way to make it obvious that you were just acting your way through a recall of events from Varric's point of view.

I don't remember any advertising that said that was what to expect.

Agree with you about the ads. The ads said this: "Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make." That indicates that the buyer can expect the decisions to play an import role in the game. As far as I can see after several playthroughs is that Hawke cannot decide much, if at all. There are too many decisions there which just force Hawke to do what the story likes anyway. Things are sometimes really weird. You cannot save your mother. You have to wait until nightfall and then go on a little journey with baddies along the way to see her get killed. And, no matter which side you take, you'll always fight Orsino and Meredith. The game obviously did something right, otherwise I wouldn't have played it several times, but there are lots of areas which need improvement - one of those is the marketing team. Their description of the game is misleading.

[happy_daiz]

I think we can blame all of this on Varric. He's the one telling the story, after all.  

[GavrielKay]

Aradace wrote...

really? because ive been playing RPGs I'll wager since before you were a twinkle in your father's eye.

That is condescending.  And probably also inaccurate.

You're either a smart consumer, or you're not.  The end.

Under what pretense I or anyone else purchased DA2 makes no difference in its criticisms.  You say you find many of those criticisms valid, so why argue over whether someone should have read up on all DA2's failings before buying it or not?

DA2 disappoints because it follows on one of the best games I've ever played.  It should have been better.  It could have been absolutely amazing.  Instead it was OK.

If you think I should have ruined the story for myself in order to find out that it was only going to be OK before buying it then fine.  Whatever.  I think it is legitimate to purchase a game without having spoilers and still have honest criticisms for it after playing.

I never said I was cheated.  Or that I couldn't have found more information about the game if I was willing to have it spoiled.  I said it wasn't a worthy successor to DAO and wasn't as good a value for the money.  Knowing that ahead of time would only have made it worse, as on top of the failings it has just out of the box, I would have been unable to enjoy the few twists and turns that I did.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 23 août 2011 - 06:32 .

[Rovay]

happy_daiz wrote...

I think we can blame all of this on Varric. He's the one telling the story, after all.  

God no! Don't say that aloud! You want the traditionalist part of this forum to murder him?

[Aradace]

@Gavriel - The only other thing I'll say to you on the matter is this; While I dont agree with your claiming ignorance to justify why you dislike the game. I do agree that none the less, your disliking the game is valid as many do it seems. (I am not among them but that is just me.)

Secondly, I'll also say that you at least "intelligently" defended your position and didnt claim ignorance to the point that Ian did. Ian actually went into the game expecting Origin stories and to be able to play someone other than Hawke if I understand correctly. You dont even have to look at the spoiler filled threads on here to get the information that this wasnt going to be the case in DA2.

So to you, I have no hard feelings toward and I'll just respectfully agree to disagree with you and wont bother you further on the matter.

As to my comment about how long Ive been playing RPGs, the comment was NOT intended as such however, unless you're in your mid to late 30s (or older) I'd say it is in fact accurate as Ive been playing video games of all types since I could literally pick up a controller and started actually becoming good at them at the age of 3 lol.

Modifié par Aradace, 23 août 2011 - 06:36 .

[happy_daiz]

Rovay wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...
I think we can blame all of this on Varric. He's the one telling the story, after all.  

God no! Don't say that aloud! You want the traditionalist part of this forum to murder him?

Good point, so sorry! It wasn't Varric!
Besides, his chest hair alone should have been worth the cost of the game. 

[Aradace]

happy_daiz wrote...

Rovay wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...
I think we can blame all of this on Varric. He's the one telling the story, after all.  

God no! Don't say that aloud! You want the traditionalist part of this forum to murder him?

Good point, so sorry! It wasn't Varric!
Besides, his chest hair alone should have been worth the cost of the game. 

One of my wife's nicknames for me is Varric because Im really short IRL and really hairy lol.

[GavrielKay]

Aradace wrote...
As to my comment about how long Ive been playing RPGs, the comment was NOT intended as such however, unless you're in your mid to late 30s (or older) I'd say it is in fact accurate as Ive been playing video games of all types since I could literally pick up a controller and started actually becoming good at them at the age of 3 lol.

I am older than that   

And I work in software.  So I do feel a certain - let's not say "right" but position of knowledge - to argue from where it comes to failings in software.  I know that it can be difficult to handle variety and all the different angles that a user might come at your software.  But, reused maps is just lazy.  And lack of choices for the PC, where necessary to keep the plot moving, needed more actual story behind them to make it flow and feel immersive.

[Aradace]

GavrielKay wrote...

Aradace wrote...
As to my comment about how long Ive been playing RPGs, the comment was NOT intended as such however, unless you're in your mid to late 30s (or older) I'd say it is in fact accurate as Ive been playing video games of all types since I could literally pick up a controller and started actually becoming good at them at the age of 3 lol.

I am older than that   

And I work in software.  So I do feel a certain - let's not say "right" but position of knowledge - to argue from where it comes to failings in software.  I know that it can be difficult to handle variety and all the different angles that a user might come at your software.  But, reused maps is just lazy.  And lack of choices for the PC, where necessary to keep the plot moving, needed more actual story behind them to make it flow and feel immersive.

Well then, sorry for the implication of being older lol. (I wont ask how much older because you dont ask a woman their age lol) But I do agree that the re-use of maps was a bit lazy.  Did it reflect my overall opinion of the game dramatically? Not so much but I can understand why some folks would be.  As for lack of choices for Hawke, I also do agree that I felt "railroaded" to some extent.  Especially in Act 3 concerning Orsino and Meredith.  Again, it did not affect my overall feeling or enjoyment of the game.  But apparently for some, it did and I can understand why.  As such, the "downtime" Hawke has between acts doesnt really bother me either because I see it exactly as such, downtime for our "hero".  

[happy_daiz]

@Aradace - Too funny.  

@GavrielKay - I also work in software (web development). Where I work, a lot of times, our Marketing department is the bane of our existence. Lots of things get promised, and a majority of the time, we don't hear about those things until it's too late to actually implement them, or you don't get enough time to do a job you're proud of. Or you get lousy and sometimes conflicting specs, and spend most of your time reworking things that already should have been done. Sometimes, I swear, they just like throwing fancy words around that they don't understand, because they heard somewhere that it's the "latest" thing.

I'm not saying that's what happened with DA2, or that it's "right", but I understand how these things can happen. There really is no excuse for the map reuse, but there again, it's beating a dead horse. BW knows what they did.

[GavrielKay]

happy_daiz wrote...
@GavrielKay - I also work in software (web development). Where I work, a lot of times, our Marketing department is the bane of our existence. Lots of things get promised, and a majority of the time, we don't hear about those things until it's too late to actually implement them, or you don't get enough time to do a job you're proud of. Or you get lousy and sometimes conflicting specs, and spend most of your time reworking things that already should have been done. Sometimes, I swear, they just like throwing fancy words around that they don't understand, because they heard somewhere that it's the "latest" thing.

I agree completely.  But, I also expect the company to get dinged on it when it happens so that someone somewhere might (I say might, not will) learn from it and try to do better next time.  

I don't fault the developers specifically, or the writers or the graphics folks;  but somewhere in the whole process of creating DA2 there was a shift in standards that let some less than stellar stuff make it into the final product.  As a person who spent money on the game, I feel it is ok for me to tell them they could have done better.

I did actually enjoy DA2 from a pleasant waste of time perspective.  But I loved DAO and didn't love DA2.  Based on the talent that was evident in DAO, I hoped to love DA2 but just couldn't.

I hope they will do better with the next installment.

[Neminea]

GavrielKay wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I'm all for role-playing, but you have a game that has a confined space - it all takes place in and around Kirkwall because that's the story that is being told. So you won't have the option to go to Fereldan, as nice of a trip that might be. And having this story doesn't remove the ability to make Hawke your own - it just dictates the place, the people, some of the key events. All the rest is you.

Which is why I think the whole scene should be dropped and Hawke should just hear from Gamlen or a letter from Bethany that she's been taken while Hawke was away.

They present the scene as if you should be able to do something and then don't let you do it.  If the game must proceed a certain way in order to serve the story, then it should be presented such that it doesn't break immersion.

Many players would not care whether Bethany objects to being saved from the Gallows.  The place is so corrupt and dangerous that you'd have to be nuts to allow anyone to be taken there.  We are forced to let Grace go free, but unable to stop Cullen from walking out with Bethany?  That's just silly.

If it had happened offscrean then the main topic in these posts would have been: why didn't they give me a chance to be there when Bethany was taken? The whole point of the scene for as far as I could tell was to be a dramatic goodbye, the counterpart of her either dying ro becoming a warden in the deep roads. Also, I think the scene was ment to show that even though Hawke just escaped the deep roads he is still not a very powerfull person in the city. He only becomes the champ after act 2.

Also, as far as I remember, at that point the only proof you have that the circle in Kirkwall is full of "baddies" is one tranquil mage and Anders word for it (not 100% sure). You have also met Thrask, Emmeric and Cullen. Who seem to be decent guys at that point and you have Fenris and I believe also Aveline saying the circle isn't all that bad.

GavrielKay wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...
And if they had skipped the scene, you would be complaining about her just disappearing off screen, so you propose a no win situation for them.

Don't put words in my mouth.

No doubt some people would complain if you handed them a million dollars that it wasn't in small bills, but I would not complain that a predefined storyline was carried out while Hawke was away.

No good reason was presented why Hawke shouldn't fight to keep Bethany out of the Gallows. Bethany not wanting to get into a fight just isn't enough reason. There's lots of fights in the game we'd just as soon avoid, but there we are fighting them. There has to be a better reason for not saving your sister from being in a place where mages are raped, Tranquiled and whipped with scary frequency.

I dont think the poster ment you specifically, and I agree that a lot of people would have complained about that. I explained above as to why I think they did put it in.
I think there are plenty of good reasons (given) as to why someone would allow it.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...


i will agree with this. i didnt midn staying in kirkwall, but there should have been a better reason then 'we have an uncle who has no money and is a bastard' maybe if at the start of the gane it was the smallest templar power in the free marches, (as meridith was fairly new by the sounds of some of the npc dialouge) this would have been a good way of also showing the increased hold the templars had over the city thoughout the years

Snip

First off, Leandra is a selfish idiot. She has one, possibly 2, apostate mage children, who have spent their life on the run from templars. Kirkwall happens to be templar central in Eastern Thedas, and the templars there have a pretty bad reputation towards mages. Not only that, but they practically RUN the place. So her bright idea is to take her 1,maybe 2, apostate children into what is basically the lion's den for mages....why? Sure, she's from there, and has family. There is no reason why she and Carver, and non-mage Hawke, can't go. The mage kids? They are grown adults who can catch another boat to another location, then write mom at Uncle Gamlens, and keep in touch, maybe eve Leandra can send them money to help them out.

Instead, Leandra insists on something similar to a German woman living abroad, with two half Jewish kids who are now adults, insisting that her kids come back to germany with her and live with relatives in the Middle of the Third Reich. I see this as incredibly stupid and selfish on leandra's part. Either that, or Hawke is a mama's boy/girl who really needs to cut loose the apron strings and get a grip. Especially if their own freedom/survival is being put in serious jeopardy by holding on to mom.

Still for whatever reason, Hawke decides to go anyway, maybe because he/she, like Leandra, still believe their relatives are wealthy nobles of influence and power, and can hook them up. Ok, so maybe we do have a valid reason for hanging on to mom, though for a Mage Hawke, it's still a weakly valid reason. So they get to Kirkwall, find out they can't get into the city, and to make matters even better, they discover that good ol' Uncle Gammy blew the family fortune, lost the estate, and lives in caveman level squatter's paradise in the city's slums, his only company are the ancient wheels of cheese that have developed sentience. That is your family connection in Kirkwall. That is the high flying lifestyle of leisure and luxury you have endured a months long journey from Gwaren for.

snip

THANK YOU! I have been thinking that since forever...

Modifié par Neminea, 23 août 2011 - 09:43 .

[Neminea]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't want to get into the semantics of RPG, but I felt like DA2 was part of that genre. I didn't need it to be a DA:O carbon copy to classify it as such.

If it had been, people would have complained about it... funny how that works