250 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Neminea,

Political power has nothing to do with it. Hawke doesn't need to be Champion of Kirkwall in order to protect his sister from two people. If he's trained to throw a knife with enough accuracy to kill a man in one strike by aiming for the neck, then he's only facing one other man who is trained to deal with mages specifically - which Hawke isn't if Bethany is alive. As Alistair says, he's simply a man wearing armor - none of his "abilities" will effect Hawke. All I got from that scene was that Hawke is willing to do nothing to protect his sister. That's all I got from that scene.

As for evidence, I don't need to be 110% certain about the Kirkwall Circle in Act One in order to know that I don't want to see my baby sister turned tranquil. I also could give less of a damn what Fenris and Aveline say after watching Anders mercy kill Karl; all I know is that I wouldn't stand idly by while my little sister was taken away to a place I had reason to suspect was very dangerous to her people.

[blaidfiste]

The scene with Cullen arresting Bethany was perfect. If I was concerned about protecting her from the Templars, I would take her with me to the Deep Roads and not abandon her for such a long time period.

As for the other scenes you mention, I agree totally. One that really bothers me is the Letter From the Circle signed by O in the Killer's lair. It irritates me to no end that I can do nothing about it. Orsino has confess before Hawke puts 2 and 2 together.

I also wanted Denarius' mansion as reward for helping Fenris but I can't have everything I want.

[maxernst]

Neminea wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...


i will agree with this. i didnt midn staying in kirkwall, but there should have been a better reason then 'we have an uncle who has no money and is a bastard' maybe if at the start of the gane it was the smallest templar power in the free marches, (as meridith was fairly new by the sounds of some of the npc dialouge) this would have been a good way of also showing the increased hold the templars had over the city thoughout the years

Snip

First off, Leandra is a selfish idiot. She has one, possibly 2, apostate mage children, who have spent their life on the run from templars. Kirkwall happens to be templar central in Eastern Thedas, and the templars there have a pretty bad reputation towards mages. Not only that, but they practically RUN the place. So her bright idea is to take her 1,maybe 2, apostate children into what is basically the lion's den for mages....why? Sure, she's from there, and has family. There is no reason why she and Carver, and non-mage Hawke, can't go. The mage kids? They are grown adults who can catch another boat to another location, then write mom at Uncle Gamlens, and keep in touch, maybe eve Leandra can send them money to help them out.

Instead, Leandra insists on something similar to a German woman living abroad, with two half Jewish kids who are now adults, insisting that her kids come back to germany with her and live with relatives in the Middle of the Third Reich. I see this as incredibly stupid and selfish on leandra's part. Either that, or Hawke is a mama's boy/girl who really needs to cut loose the apron strings and get a grip. Especially if their own freedom/survival is being put in serious jeopardy by holding on to mom.

Still for whatever reason, Hawke decides to go anyway, maybe because he/she, like Leandra, still believe their relatives are wealthy nobles of influence and power, and can hook them up. Ok, so maybe we do have a valid reason for hanging on to mom, though for a Mage Hawke, it's still a weakly valid reason. So they get to Kirkwall, find out they can't get into the city, and to make matters even better, they discover that good ol' Uncle Gammy blew the family fortune, lost the estate, and lives in caveman level squatter's paradise in the city's slums, his only company are the ancient wheels of cheese that have developed sentience. That is your family connection in Kirkwall. That is the high flying lifestyle of leisure and luxury you have endured a months long journey from Gwaren for.

snip

THANK YOU! I have been thinking that since forever...

Yes, that bothered me, as well.  Once there's no family fortune, why on earth should I sell myself as indentured labor for a year to get into Kirkwall?  With the skills Hawke and sibling have, I'm sure they can get at least as good a deal at any city in the Free Marches.

And yes, it's true that all RPG's force you into the story track in certain ways.  The problem I have with DA2 is the way that it does it more often and with poorer justification than DA:O.  There are just too many places where you can't take logical actions.  Why would Hawke just watch while Justice kills Ella, Grace kills Thrask, etc.  And even if you buy the idea that it would be too dangerous to kill Cullen and flee, wouldn't Hawke make some effort to try and get Bethany out of the Circle?  It's clearly not that difficult for mages to sneak out.  It really bothered me that the game sets you up as having this family and then makes it impossible for you to act like you care about them.

Plus, there's the fact that unlike origins where there about six different possible outcomes for the Warden, there are only two for Hawke and they're not even very different.  Maybe you can't save Kirkwall, but the fact that even the outcome of your personal story is foreordained is disappointing.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Neminea,

Political power has nothing to do with it. Hawke doesn't need to be Champion of Kirkwall in order to protect his sister from two people.
 

Because it isn't simply two people? It isn't hard to understand that we're dealing with Kirkwall's political power which governs the law enforcement which control the entire city, though I doubt you give a damn about logic.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[dragonflight288]

Hawke gets off boat, a guard says the Templars are the real power in Kirkwall before we even enter the city. The viscount doesn't even stand up to Meredith.

Now add in her second at Hawke's home. If Cullen turns up dead, Hawke will not have any friends. Aveline will be forced to turn on Hawke for murder. The templars will likely kill every member of the family, they will be forced to go on the run, which they were trying to stop by settling in Kirkwall.

And Bethany wanted it.

And don't forget that Hawke spent so long in the Deep Roads living on nothing but deep mushrooms. It took a week of fighting darkspawn, living on a crappy diet, and lugging a buttload of loot up to the surface. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be in fighting condition after that. Hawke probably just wanted to collapse after arriving home. He didn't just beat a rock wraith, rest up and leave the deep roads the next day.

[LobselVith8]

Excuse Mel, Dave of Canada?

I don't see logic in abandoning family. I don't see the logic in doing nothing for Bethany when Hawke knows what happened to Karl. I don't see the logic in standing idly by when he can try to rescue his sister. I think Hawke should give more of a damn about his sister than the fact that the two templars there are part of Meredith's administration.

[Morroian]

GavrielKay wrote...

I don't remember any advertising that said that was what to expect.

In most of the press before the game was released they did talk about the differences.

[Neminea]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Excuse Mel, Dave of Canada?

I don't see logic in abandoning family. I don't see the logic in doing nothing for Bethany when Hawke knows what happened to Karl. I don't see the logic in standing idly by when he can try to rescue his sister. I think Hawke should give more of a damn about his sister than the fact that the two templars there are part of Meredith's administration.

And I don't see the logic in trying to go against what in this case is the police of a city, and patronizing an adult women on her choices.

[DreGregoire]

This has been a very interesting read, because I too was frusterated by some of the lack of choice in the actions in DA2.

I agree that the whole Bethany scene should have been different. A point before I go into that though. Bethany was definately considering entering the circle, she has conversations with companions that show this.

The whole I'm the eldest and will defend my family despite their wishes thing aside, I can see why they thought that it was an acceptable scene, but it really wasn't. I think it would have been best that it was just a scene that we saw and were not in, perhaps coming home to find Mother and Gamlen distraught and possibly having Hawke chasing after Bethany and Templars, but not making it in time. They could also have done a scene where you went and spoke to Bethany at the tower (of course this would have cost devs more money). The threats by Cullen are issued, but like many have said, it wouldn't have really detered a determined Hawke. Best yet have it take place in the Gallows where there are templars.

The Carver scene when he joins the templars has a different feel to me. I haven't really spent the time trying to figure out why I look at them so differently except for to me the templars appear to be the ones who act upon and the mages appear to be the ones that are acted upon. LOL I have no idea if that makes any sense or not.

------
About leaving Kirkwall in the beginning and people talking about that lack of choice, I just have to point out that both Bethany and Carver are very clear when they tell their elder sibling that in no way will they agree to putting their mother through another trip. Carver: "We came here" and "we are staying here."

Modifié par DreGregoire, 24 août 2011 - 02:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Because I wouldn't want my baby sister becoming another Karl, Neminea.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

maxernst wrote...


Yes, that bothered me, as well.  Once there's no family fortune, why on earth should I sell myself as indentured labor for a year to get into Kirkwall?  With the skills Hawke and sibling have, I'm sure they can get at least as good a deal at any city in the Free Marches.

 

Yes, it wouldn't have been so bad had Bioware given very compelling reasons for us to roleplay wanting to enter Kirkwall, when everything so far says it is a dumb idea and you have to sell yourself off to get in, for a life of poverty. A few ways that could have helped make Kirkwall a reasonable decision would be like all the other nearest cities completely blocking Ferelden entry, perhaps even attacking and sinking refugee boats, and kirkwall is the only city that isn't for the moment. Or, perhaps at this point, the templars have eased up somewhat, and Kirkwall isn't so threatening for an apostate. Or, the existance of distant Amell relatives who still have some wealth and influence, and might be able to be appealed to for help. or something. But the way you are railroaded into Kirkwall, with the reasons given, are laughable when trying to role play.

[Xilizhra]

Isn't the reason that you don't want to put Leandra through it, after she's already undergone highly significant mental exhaustion and was probably counting on returning to her ancestral home?

[The dead fish]

Because I wouldn't want my baby sister becoming another Karl, Neminea.

One of the worst things of DA2.

Ridiculous, indeed. It is obvious that I would killed the two Templars and then fled with my family in another city. What brother could have let the templars touch his sister without to do nothing ? I mean... really ? What the hell seriously ?

That's why I never play Bethany as a circle's mage. Better for my health.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 août 2011 - 02:35 .

[Neminea]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because I wouldn't want my baby sister becoming another Karl, Neminea.

You know of one mage that that happened to, a mage who was also close to a guy you know to be possessed by a spirit at that point which would make him an abomanation in the templars eyes. Also: even Anders doesn't know why he was made tranq, for all we know Karl could have done some seriously messed up things.

This logic just strikes me as weird, since most people seem to agree that that you can't circle up all the mages because of the ones that go blood crazy yet a lot of people do not seem to think you can't judge the templars by the one mage that got tranqed.

It seems like metagaming to me. I think I would be more worried about her getting killed by a mage resorting to blood magic craziness while trying to escape then her being made into "another karl". And I sided with the mages.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xilizhra wrote...

Isn't the reason that you don't want to put Leandra through it, after she's already undergone highly significant mental exhaustion and was probably counting on returning to her ancestral home?

Yes, and it's an incredibly lame, weak excuse too, all things considering. Both surviving Hawke kids and Aveline had survived their own trauma as well. And I don't see how it would be any better for Leandra to have her two children, after losing one, indenture themselves for a year working for two very hsady and dangerous groups, doing potentially very dangerous things for no gain other than their eventual release from servitude.

Unless, of course, leandra doesn't really care that much for her kids.

[Neminea]

Or she is just plain spoiled *nods*

[Sith Grey Warden]

Looking at the discussion regarding the Templars coming to take Bethany away, I think there is enough merit in the arguments that there should have been an option to oppose Cullen. Clearly, not everyone would have taken it, but it is a point with enough merits to consider. Either that, or we should have gotten a more convincing reason why you can't. If we had actually seen an army of Templars waiting outside, then it would have made much more sense.

[TEWR]

Considering Kirkwall's stance towards mages I expected them to overreact to knowing about Bethany. I expected to see it happening outside Gamlen's house with at least 50 Templars. Hell Cullen and Meredith could've been leading those 50 Templars.

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Considering Kirkwall's stance towards mages I expected them to overreact to knowing about Bethany. I expected to see it happening outside Gamlen's house with at least 50 Templars. Hell Cullen and Meredith could've been leading those 50 Templars.

And if they had shown that, it would have made more sense for Hawke to back down.  Leaving the player to invent a story in order to keep from going bonkers isn't the greatest writing. 

I could just as easily invent a story that Cullen is trying to curry some favor with Meredith and maybe get her to calm down a little bit by going on a clandestine mission to bring in an apostate.  Thus making it even more plausible that Hawke would kill him, hide the bodies and go on about her business.

[dragonflight288]

I personally like to think that Hawke was too dang tired from his trip in the Deep Roads, and maybe a little sick from a rotten deep mushroom. And having some injuries from a week of fighting darkspawn almost non-stop. And tired of carrying all the wealth brought up. He and Varic didn't exactly have all the hired hands hired by Bartrand at the time after all.

[TobiTobsen]

Neminea wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because I wouldn't want my baby sister becoming another Karl, Neminea.

You know of one mage that that happened to, a mage who was also close to a guy you know to be possessed by a spirit at that point which would make him an abomanation in the templars eyes. Also: even Anders doesn't know why he was made tranq, for all we know Karl could have done some seriously messed up things.

This logic just strikes me as weird, since most people seem to agree that that you can't circle up all the mages because of the ones that go blood crazy yet a lot of people do not seem to think you can't judge the templars by the one mage that got tranqed.

It seems like metagaming to me. I think I would be more worried about her getting killed by a mage resorting to blood magic craziness while trying to escape then her being made into "another karl". And I sided with the mages.

What we know is that the templars don't follow the rules in Kirkwall.
They tranquil mages they aren't allowed to tranquil. They whip mages just for talking with outsiders. They rape mages and threaten them with tranquility if they should tell it to somebody. The second in command of Meredith thinks that you can't treat mages as people and tells us that the public isn't helping the templars like they did in the past because they can't stand the way Meredith is leading the Gallows. It's all there... all in the first act.

Neminea wrote...

And I don't see the logic in trying to go
against what in this case is the police of a city, and patronizing an
adult women on her choices.

What choice? I think Ian mentioned it before: The templars are coming to arrest her, she didn't send them a letter to please come and escort her.

[Urzon]

What choice? I think Ian mentioned it before: The templars are coming to arrest her, she didn't send them a letter to please come and escort her.

It was her choice to go quietly after Cullen came for her. If they did fight the capture, the templars would have had the right to defend themselves and call for backup. Cullen didn't have to just take Bethany, you know. He could have arrested the entire family for harboring an apostate mage.

Bethany saw it would be easier on the family just to go quietly. If she didn't and charges were filed against the Hawke family, you could have said goodbye to that fancy new manor, and any dreams of nobilty. That, and if you killed the guards and tried to escape, i'm sure a full squad of templar would be after you by day's end. I'm not sure about you, but i'm not sure how long Leandra or Gamlen could run when templars are hot on their heels.

Unless you are going to leave your poor old mother behind (at the mercy of the templars), Hawke and family would be caught in a matter of days im sure.

Modifié par Urzon, 24 août 2011 - 11:16 .

[TobiTobsen]

Urzon wrote...

What choice? I think Ian mentioned it before: The templars are coming to arrest her, she didn't send them a letter to please come and escort her.

It was her choice to go quietly after Cullen came for her. If they did fight the capture, the templars would have had the right to defend themselves and call for backup. Cullen didn't have to just take Bethany, you know. He could have arrested the entire family for harboring an apostate mage.

Bethany saw it would be easier on the family just to go quietly. If she didn't and charges were filed against the Hawke family, you could have said goodbye to that fancy new manor, and any dreams of nobilty. That, and if you killed the guards and tried to escape, i'm sure a full squad of templar would be after you by day's end. I'm not sure about you, but i'm not sure how long Leandra or Gamlen could run when templars are hot on their heels.

Unless you are going to leave your poor old mother behind (at the mercy of the templars), Hawke and family would be caught in a matter of days im sure.

Poor old mother? The whole story of Hawkes involvement in the Plot of Dragon Age 2 and all the **** that happens to the family is Leandras fault to begin with.
Going to the main power hub of the Templars in the Free Marches with an apostate kid and staying there even when it's clear that you'll have to sell your kids into one year of servitude just to live in poverty was one hell of a plan. She strikes me as incredibly selfish. All she thinks about is getting her title and manor back, which will do nothing to protect her mage kids.

And if I remember correctly after they fled Kirkwall the last time they settled in Lothering after some years, where they lived for ten years without any templar even taking notice of them. Without a phylactery the templars are just as screwed as everybody else who is searching someone in the middle ages.

[LobselVith8]

Urzon wrote...

It was her choice to go quietly after Cullen came for her. If they did fight the capture, the templars would have had the right to defend themselves and call for backup.

Corpses can't call for back-up. If Hawke kills the two templars in his uncle's home, they can't exactly call for reinforcements.

Urzon wrote...

Cullen didn't have to just take Bethany, you know. He could have arrested the entire family for harboring an apostate mage.

If Bethany was turned tranquil, that wouldn't be much of a comfort to know that the templar who owes Hawke a debt took away his baby sister to the same Circle of Kirkwall that houses monsters like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras.

Urzon wrote...

Bethany saw it would be easier on the family just to go quietly. If she didn't and charges were filed against the Hawke family, you could have said goodbye to that fancy new manor, and any dreams of nobilty.

So, as long as Hawke and Leandra got back the Amell family home, why should Bethany matter? This seems to be the argument some make, and I honestly can't wrap my head around anyone thinking that human life should be discarded simply because of material wealth. Bethany is Hawke's family - if he really cared about her, I don't see Hawke simply doing nothing while Knight-Captain "mages can't be treated like people" and "are weapons" Cullen and one other templar took Bethany to the Circle of Kirkwall where Hawke knows a Harrowed mage was made tranquil. Given Anders' story about the horror stories Karl was writing to him about the Kirkwall Circle, Hawke shouldn't have simply done nothing for his sister. Forcing the player to do nothing in that moment is the problem; it makes me feel like the protagonist is human refuse.

Urzon wrote...

That, and if you killed the guards and tried to escape, i'm sure a full squad of templar would be after you by day's end. I'm not sure about you, but i'm not sure how long Leandra or Gamlen could run when templars are hot on their heels.

You mean the two templars inside the hovel, in a dangerous part of town? You're writing as though Hawke doesn't kill templars in the city-state of Kirkwall, which seems to go unnoticed even when Hawke and his companions kill an entire squad of templars in Hightown.

Urzon wrote...

Unless you are going to leave your poor old mother behind (at the mercy of the templars), Hawke and family would be caught in a matter of days im sure.

Maybe Hawke should care about his baby sister being at the mercy of monsters like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras instead of a future of silk robes and a large mansion. And caught in a manner of days - according to who? The Hawke family evaded the templars for years. This is the same man who can eventually lead his people to killing an army of templars in the Gallows, and the templars don't have any phylacteries capable of aiding their pursuit.

[TobiTobsen]

Oh... one more thing I would like to know:

Get Snarky!Hawke or Angry!Hawke the option to call Cullen out for taking Bethany in Act 2? Diplomatic!Hawke only had the "Can I see Meredith?" "Just checking on a friend" (srsly wtf?) and "Nothing. Good day to you" options. I was rather irritated at Diplomatic!Hawkes casual "Yo Cullen! Remember the day you enslaved my sister? Good times, bro! Good times!" behaviour in that scene

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 24 août 2011 - 12:12 .