87 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Deathwurm wrote...

I'll leave the "racist toward RPG and anime" part alone...it's just too funny all by itself.

It was intended to be. I stand by what I said though; I agree that all the hate thrown at anything Japanese around here on the BSN is highly suspect and as the OP said, comes across as veiled racism. And if you don't like that word, then call it dogmatic provincialism.

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 août 2011 - 12:53 .

[zx2781]

chrisuuuu wrote...

  I love how fast someone tries to defend another culture by saying "but I married a ____ woman". Thomas
Jefferson sure didn't view black males as equals but had no problem loving some of their women. I know plenty of men in the US who think Persian women are beautiful but wouldn't hesitate to crack a Bin Laden joke or be more wary around Arab men. It's called a fetish.

  I'm not speaking about every single person on this forum who dislike jrpgs. I'm sure the majority of them have their own reasons. But I do see plenty of those who discredit anything related to video gaming from Japan, past or present. Like I said, they would probably rate Duke Nukem Forever higher than Zelda: ToOT. It's obvious who those posters are. I don't know how you can be a lifelong gamer and discredit everything coming out of that country.

I was not defending anything. I was merely pointing out how juvenile and foolish your accusation was. Getting married has nothing to do with a fetish. Another example of your perspective on things...to bad.

Modifié par zx2781, 23 août 2011 - 06:42 .

[ErichHartmann]

Japanese developers should be open to "Western" style RPGs (Demon's Souls is the odd man out from a Japanese developer). I would be happy to buy a JRPG with a deep character creation system rather than being stuck playing fixed protagonists all the time. They need to cut back on cut scenes too. Half the game shouldn't be spent watching rather than playing.

[Deathwurm]

marshalleck wrote...

Deathwurm wrote...

I'll leave the "racist toward RPG and anime" part alone...it's just too funny all by itself.

It was intended to be. I stand by what I said though; I agree that all the hate thrown at anything Japanese around here on the BSN is highly suspect and as the OP said, comes across as veiled racism.

Maybe I'm just missing those Posts, then. I see Threads every so often that ask for Anime or Manga recommendations and there seem to be a lot of fans out there...

I'll admit, the Modern Japanese Pop-Art aesthetic doesn't appeal to me (and I don't use the term "pop-art" as an insult but as a term to cover Games, Anime, Manga, even Advertising) because a lot of it seems the same. I much prefer classical Japanese art from the Feudal period and really love stuff from the '60s and '70s...I remember running home as a kid to watch Ultraman and AstroBoy every day and being REALLY mad when I couldn't.

[KenKenpachi]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Japanese developers should be open to "Western" style RPGs (Demon's Souls is the odd man out from a Japanese developer). I would be happy to buy a JRPG with a deep character creation system rather than being stuck playing fixed protagonists all the time. They need to cut back on cut scenes too. Half the game shouldn't be spent watching rather than playing.

I think some here forget there is some social issues here. the Japanese in the game market its considerd poor taste at the home front to mimic the West. Minus some of the more heavily Urbanized and Westernized regions, a highly popular and widespread pro-Japanese cultural movement is underway. Given some issues with the Youth and various criminal gangs, and subcultural issue, be they based on Western culture or not, is being blamed on the West. In fact when the quake hit it cancelled an Anime and gaming convention, in Tokyo. The Mayor only had this to say "Good they get what they deserve." He maintanes a high popularity rating. and Japan has historically, and currently has been a closed society, not much accepting of new and differing ideals. Funny enough this tred has been rising across the East as a whole.

So while they might "Could" and should for Western markets, the home markets potentially could turn on them with a vengance. Japan has changed very little minus on the surface. As an Example the JSNDF maintanes the same traditions of the Imperial Navy, while using US made weapon systems.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 23 août 2011 - 01:20 .

[marshalleck]

Deathwurm wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Deathwurm wrote...

I'll leave the "racist toward RPG and anime" part alone...it's just too funny all by itself.

It was intended to be. I stand by what I said though; I agree that all the hate thrown at anything Japanese around here on the BSN is highly suspect and as the OP said, comes across as veiled racism.

Maybe I'm just missing those Posts, then. I see Threads every so often that ask for Anime or Manga recommendations and there seem to be a lot of fans out there...

I'll admit, the Modern Japanese Pop-Art aesthetic doesn't appeal to me (and I don't use the term "pop-art" as an insult but as a term to cover Games, Anime, Manga, even Advertising) because a lot of it seems the same. I much prefer classical Japanese art from the Feudal period and really love stuff from the '60s and '70s...I remember running home as a kid to watch Ultraman and AstroBoy every day and being REALLY mad when I couldn't.

Next time I see someone freaking out about "GET YOUR JRPG OUT OF MY WESTERN RPG" with all the attendant cultural slurs I'll PM you a link if I can remember this thread. 

[Han Shot First]

T764 wrote...

What word would you use describe people who hate something because it's foreign? 

The comments start at "I don't like the stories, art style, effette protagonists or the linear gameplay" and rapidly move into "weaboos and Japan fanbois". The BSN may be less worse than other places but does not change that the hate is primarily directed at the cultural mindset of the creators.

If i remember right in the "No more jrpg in DA2" thread we had changes in complaints whenever it was shown that wrpg's were the same, it became "bash the games because their foreign and they have a bad rep" and not because they are bad.

I am also fairly certain that one of the Dragon Age anime threads unded up with a number of racist comments. 

I didn't see those threads.

But even so, I think it's wrong to paint most people who dislike JRPGs as 'racist' just because a few knuckleheads may have posted racist comments in a thread discussing JRPGs. They are hardly representative of the majority of people who just happen to prefer western style RPGs.

Most people who don't like JPRGs don't like them because of their linearity, writing or art style. It has nothing to do with the nationality of the people developing the game.

I dislike JPRGs but I don't dislike all Japanese games. In fact one of my favorite games is Silent Hill 2.

I love how fast someone tries to defend another culture by saying "but I married a ____ woman". Thomas
Jefferson sure didn't view black males as equals but had no problem loving some of their women. I know plenty of men in the US who think Persian women are beautiful but wouldn't hesitate to crack a Bin Laden joke or be more wary around Arab men. . 

Thomas Jefferson had a sexual relationship with a biracial woman with whom he had bastards that were never legitimized. He married a white woman and there is no evidence he was ever in love with Sally Hemmings. Sex and love are not the same thing.

And Bin Laden was Arabic, not Persian.

It's called a fetish

Ah, the internet. Where people are free to say things they'd never have to courage to say face to face. Did you seriously call my relationship with my wife a 'fetish?"

Perhaps you ought to look in the mirror before accusing anyone else of racism.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 23 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[Deathwurm]

marshalleck wrote...

Next time I see someone freaking out about "GET YOUR JRPG OUT OF MY WESTERN RPG" with all the attendant cultural slurs I'll PM you a link if I can remember this thread. 

Ok...now I see where you're coming from...those Posts I have seen.

I always take those Posts as general stupidity and lack of understanding about Game construction rather than Racism combined with folks tossing around "jrpg" without really understanding the true stylistic differences.

I'll be honest, I did react strongly and if I came off too aggressive I apologize...I really am of the opinion that the term Racism has to be wielded like a Katana and not a Club or it will lose it's actual, important meaning.

[T764]

@HanShot First, So then answer my previous question, What do you call someone who hates something because it's foreign? marshalleck is the only one to try a different term and as i said racist is used as a catch all phrase.

If people preferring wrpgs is ok, why should those that prefer jrpgs be forced to defend themselves against outright hostility?

The DA2 combat was compared to an anime or jrpg with cries of "it's stupid" even after it being pointed out that;
A, Bioware dislikes jrpgs,
B, The sacred ashes trailer for Origins was also ott.
Blatant hatred for Japanese things, that hatred will persist even after being told that not all anime or jrpgs look like that or it being shown that the influences are not Japanese.

The linearity, writing and art are there because of the nationality of the people developing the game, in the same way that Fable feels British and Dragon Age feels North American a Japanese game is going to feel Japanese.

If DAO had been developed and published by an unknown Japanese company ALL of the games flaws would have been called into question and it would have scored lower.
Example: The BSN believes that Origins did not need to evolve despite using a thirteen year old formula with eight year old combat and being based in a fairly unoriginal fantasy setting, if a jrpg did that it would be destroyed be critics and gamers.
Even when a Japanese series attempts to grow and change it will still be criticized for not doing enough to draw in new fans and for being the same as before. The games are measured using an entirely different system.

And no these people are perhaps not being entierly racist but they are at least as racist as Resident Evil 5 was, and we saw how well that went down.

[chrisuuuu]

T764 wrote...

@HanShot First, So then answer my previous question, What do you call someone who hates something because it's foreign? marshalleck is the only one to try a different term and as i said racist is used as a catch all phrase.

   I guess its xenophobia or a variant of it. Ethnocentrism can play a part in how some folks view games from the far east. And my point about observations about American men fawning over Persian women but telling Bin Laden jokes or fearing arabs is the same as me fawning over Selma Hayak but would never invite a Mexican or some male from Central America into my home. Plus seems like those who trash anything Japanese also  seem to dislike anything coming from the far east, excluding women, in a trend I find disturbing myself.

  It's like my inwardly hating hispanics but when accused of being a racist, I counter with "but I hire them to mow my lawn and do labor on my house!" And please there is documented proof of the torture and horrific living conditions of Africans brought over for slavery. This practiced was around for centuries. But Europeans and American slave owners had no problem committing rape on African females on a massive scale. It's highly hypocritical to abhor just about every aspect of a race or culture but yet fawn over the female population of that race.

  I didn't mean to cast that wide of a net, and if you were caught in it, my apologies. But there are PLENTY of members on this board who would do everything to discredit anything coming from Japan. Not just rpgs, but action, adventure, fighting, racing...just about every game from Japan falls under their scrutiny. The more legendary and revered the title, the better. I can understand FFVII since it's a polarizing title even for jrpg fans, but I've seen Zelda, Mario, Ico, Gran Turismo, Street Fighter, Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid,  **** even Pacman all attacked. I've also seen the word "Japs" used quite frequently throughout this board.

  It's funny that during the NES, SNES, PSX, PS2 era when Japanese games dominated the market, I barely heard of even gamers from Asia bashing on American developed titles. When Zelda: TOoT came out and blew everyone away, critics and fans, I never saw anyone on any forum or site say something like "Zelda is far superior to every American title. It crushes Wasteland, Sorcerian, Ultima, etc.."

[T764]

Ta chrisuuu, xenophobic was the word i was looking for my brain just went blank, maybe it could be "narrowminded entertainment snobbery".

Don't worry about catching me in that net i am trying to argue the same side as you, although i am probably doing it badly.

[chrisuuuu]

T764 wrote...

Ta chrisuuu, xenophobic was the word i was looking for my brain just went blank, maybe it could be "narrowminded entertainment snobbery".

Don't worry about catching me in that net i am trying to argue the same side as you, although i am probably doing it badly.

  It's all good =) Well I'm just saying if Uwe Boll all of a sudden started developing games, I'm willing to bet there are some posters who would rate him as a game creator higher than this guy:

Modifié par chrisuuuu, 24 août 2011 - 12:28 .

[ReallyRue]

Some of them are fantastic and others not. There are some cliches that they pull out of the bag too often, but the same could be said of many games, I imagine.

Lost Odyssey was a particularly good JRPG, not least because it had a (mostly) adult cast, instead of that boisterous-adventuring-teenagers theme.

[chrisuuuu]

LOL Here's a vid of Bioware's own Ray Muzyka praising Final Fantasy VII.



<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/13XZV1lLjzw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Modifié par chrisuuuu, 24 août 2011 - 12:21 .

[I Ryukage I]

My story is similar to those on this board that played eastern developed RPGs back in the day. Somewhere between Mass Effect, and Oblivion, it became hard to go back to playing newly developed ERPGs(I say E for eastern because a few also came from Korea and China, as WRPGs originate from America/Europe to me. )

Certain games I don't mind the grind, but truthfully, many of the mainstream ERPGs HAVE been using the same formula maybe not only in battle-style, but at least in a cast of characters. I don't knock down any that come out, but those same archtypes in storytelling is MY reason for not being all that interested in them.. at least on console. Handheld, I still plan on rebuying a DS for pokemon, on PSP loved the remake of FF:Tactics, as well as Disgaea. Also, my favorite game of all time, Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Now, blatant hate is pretty sad to see in this day and age, but after playing a game is only when I make a judgement. For example, LOVE the battle system in FF:X-2, HATE the singing, rikku, super-middle school girl acting etc. I've never truly got into FF:X either, only playing an hour or so before i couldnt stand it anymore to see how Tidus is a weak character... some time in the furture i will return to both of these games to give proper reviews but those are just a few I played and disliked.. in this generation, probably Magna Carta 2, for its story once again.

[Volus Warlord]

I think this thread needs some good ******-Anus relations.

[swn32]

I dislike JRPGs but that doesnt mean i hate anything japanese. Being an anime, manga fan, I find them vastly superior to any western shows/comics.

Modifié par swn32, 24 août 2011 - 04:02 .

[Remmirath]

I dislike all of the JRPGs I've personally played - but I'm not going to assume that I hate them all, and I certainly don't dislike them because they're Japanese. I dislike similar RPGs from anywhere else, too; fixed characters and cartoony art styles are just things I dislike no matter where they're from (they also seem to have an unfortunate tendency towards hard-to-guess systems with ridiculously high numbers, and I hate those wherever I find them).

I also dislike most anime and manga, but then, that's nothing compared to the deep loathing I feel for the modern American cartoons I've caught on the TV... so, really, I guess I just don't like cartoons with a few rare exceptions.

I suspect that most people who rail against JRPGs or games becoming like them are just using that as a convenient word to sum up all the things that they dislike about them in particular, which may not even be true of all of them. It's certainly faster to say 'JRPG' than 'RPG with fixed characters, a cartoony art style and ridiculously high numbers' for example (although I myself would write the latter anyhow, particularly since I haven't played enough JRPGs to know whether or not that's typical of most).

[I Ryukage I]

Halae Dral wrote...
(they also seem to have an unfortunate tendency towards hard-to-guess systems with ridiculously high numbers, and I hate those wherever I find them).

You mean the titles??? the grind/leveling???

[Remmirath]

I Ryukage I wrote...

Halae Dral wrote...
(they also seem to have an unfortunate tendency towards hard-to-guess systems with ridiculously high numbers, and I hate those wherever I find them).

You mean the titles??? the grind/leveling???

Damage numbers, hit points, attack bonuses, that sort of thing. It's a personal preference, I suppose; when damage numbers and hit points regularly get in the thousands and attack bonuses in the high hundreds, they begin to lose meaning for me.

The hard-to-guess part is that I like to be able to figure out how the game calculates those figures and what goes into them, and it annoys me if I can't.

[T764]

That Keiji Inafune interview is great because it shows exactly what i have been trying to say, Japanese games are built for Japanese gamers and Westerners, for the most part, will not accept that.

The problem for me is that when someone says that games need to appeal to a western market what they actually mean is an American market, and that annoys me because being English i won't always hold the same values and ideals as an American gamer.

You don't see Western games criticised for not appealing to an Eastern audience, look at the sales numbers for DAO, on the PS3 in ten weeks we had 506,521 in America, 164,707 in Europe and 71,130 in Asia, but no suggestions that the game should try to appeal more to European and Asian gamers.

I play Japanese games to experience something different, the more Western Japanese games become the harder it will be for me to get that "something different".

[chrisuuuu]

  Keiji does make good points but come on, He was mostly involved in graphics at the beginning and most of his developed games are sequels themselves! Ok this is how I look at it. I don't know how well I can articulate this but I'll try:

  Is it just me or is this generation of gaming not as memorable as others? I mean yeah graphics are amazing but something is missing...Ok I will say this, gaming in snes/genesis ps1/n64 era for me and lots of folks was an indelible experience. You had the great arcade experiences still around with probably the height of the arcade fighting phenomenon. Anyone remember going to the arcade when Super Street Fighter II Turbo came out at the arcades and there were like 15 quarters placed by waiting players on the arcade console? There was a certain buzz and that buzz translated when players got home to play on their SNES. And this generation is seriously lacking in memorable characters. I mean 14 years after it's release, everyone still recognizes or wants to be Sephiroth? In fact Sephiroth seems to be the flagbearer for rpg villains. In all this time, there should have been a villain featured in a Western or Eastern rpg with the design/charisma/acts of villainy that should have catapulted into the same stratosphere as Sephiroth in terms of recogniztion (personally I thought Kefka or Krelian were better).

   I'm willing to bet if I walk around my town and showed a picture of characters from this gen like Shepard (ME), the Apprentice (Force Unleashed), Cole (Infamous), Snow (FFXIII), I'm sure the majority would shake their head. But show them Mario, Sonic, Pacman, Cloud, Sephiroth, Mega Man, Pitfall Harry,Ryu, Ken, Chun Li and instant recogniztion would show on their faces. Where are the iconic characters created this gen? **** even Qbert and that guy from Dig Dug is more recognizable.

   FFXIII was utter trash imo. With all the tech available now and a great lineage of creating some memorable landscapes, all the scenery in FFXIII was so bland. Where's the sense of wonder we felt when we played both American and Western rpgs back in the day? One integral part of FF's success in embedding themselves into gamer's consciousness was its incredible music. The music in FFXIII was garbage imo. I mean just listen to the amazing Terra's theme from FFVI intro and compare to anything rubbish from FFXIII:

  We all know the casual market dominated this gen not only because gamers were getting older or more accessibility with portable devices. But outside of a few gems this generation, how many were mind-blowingly transcendental? How many had that magnitude that shook the entire industry as was the case when Zelda: The Ocarina of Time was released in the tail end of 1998? Remember that time?! I've never heard of ANY credible media outlet proclaim this generation as the Golden Age of gaming. That title is often left for the early 80s golden age of Arcades or perhaps the 16 bit era where we had the Snes/Genesis/TG16/etc and the PS1/N64 era. And let's not talk about this era's PC games as anything remotely close to the classics of the past. Please I'll take Ultima IV, King's Quest, Mean Streets, X-Com, Balder's Gate, Homeworld, Secret of Monkey Island, Longest Journey, Half Life over anything released today on PC. This generation is so blah. Everyone either looks like Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell or a variant of Snow from FFXIII.

And for consoles I'll take Valkyrie Profile, Colony Wars, Silent Bomber, Silent Hill, SSF II Turbo, Battletoads, Strider, Magician Lord (hard as hell!), Ninja Spirits, Earthbound, Perfect Dark over most of the crap released today. And I'd rather play horizontal or side scroller shooters or free roaming space shooters such as Alexay, Gaires (hard as hell!), Thunderforce, R-Type, Gradius, Radiant Silvergun, Tie Fighter, Wing Commander II than modern day fps like Call of Cloning: Modern Monotony 2. Just my opinion

Modifié par chrisuuuu, 24 août 2011 - 05:11 .