82 réponses à ce sujet

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

In my experience people are more likely to do incredibly stupid things due to pride but it seems most of the really evil or twisted acts occur because of people's desires and greed. 

Pride is far less influtential over a large group of people than desire but is also more readily resisted by an individual. For every person who does something stupid or malicious out of wounded pride there is another who can act rationally, but if offered their heart's desire, the very thing they strive for every day, few people could resist that.

So why then is Pride the strongest form of demon that we know of? It's never made sense to me especially because of the few Pride abominations we meet in the games, they are often seem to be driven by Pride as much as Desire, for example the Baroness; she kills young women and uses blood magic to prolong her youthfulness and life, she is driven by her pride in her appearance as much as her desire to be beautiful and live forever.

As a side note do you think there are stronger demons above Pride and Desire?

[Xilizhra]

Because pride is the most complex and human, and that translates to power and intelligence for a demon. Rage can be a very powerful emotion by itself, and yet rage demons tend to be the dumbest and weakest.

[Herr Uhl]

The more base an emotion, the less powerful. You can manipulate someone by their hunger, rage, desire or sloth only to a point. With pride, you can direct almost every aspect of their life. It takes a more skilled manipulator though. Pride can lead to desire, you deserving more.

And no, I don't think there are any other stronger demonic entities.

[whykikyouwhy]

Pride runs deeper, I believe - it is much more influencial on an individual than desire as pride keys off of sense of worth, or sense of power. If you take Merrill into the Fade during the Night Terrors quests, he attempts to cajole her based on her personal task of restoring the Eluvian. At that point, it becomes about her ambition, and her belief that she, and perhaps she alone, could bring glory back to her people. Pride also walks the line of hubris (hello, Magisters!).

I might be inclined to think Sloth is more powerful - it's an aspect that everyone probably battles with and could be coupled with other negative perspectives - thinking you're not good enough, powerful enough, etc - simply that you are not *enough* - therefore why act? just lay down and surrender. Sloth is just much more subversive in its application.

[naledgeborn]

According to Chantry lore it was the pride and hubris of man that tainted the Golden City. Biting off more than you can chew is bad I guess.

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The more base an emotion, the less powerful.

If that was true than Hunger and Desire would be the weakest demons with Anger, Sloth and Pride the strongest.

[Herr Uhl]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I might be inclined to think Sloth is more powerful - it's an aspect that everyone probably battles with and could be coupled with other negative perspectives - thinking you're not good enough, powerful enough, etc - simply that you are not *enough* - therefore why act? just lay down and surrender. Sloth is just much more subversive in its application.

That is the problem with the spirit itself, it is lazy and doesn't try to grasp anything but the low-hanging or fallen fruit. Edit: As seen with winnie the pooh in the mage origin. The pride demon thinks he deserves better and thus strives to get that. The desire demon is less scheming in this sense.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 21 août 2011 - 07:46 .

[Herr Uhl]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The more base an emotion, the less powerful.

If that was true than Hunger and Desire would be the weakest demons with Anger, Sloth and Pride the strongest.

I would consider Hunger more base than rage, but otherwise, I don't agree. Rage is mindless. Desire is seldom mindless.

[Icy Magebane]

As people have said, Pride is the most powerful for good reason. You are far more likely to act upon your rage, desire, or greed if your pride causes you to overestimate your chances of success. The other three are more basic components of the psyche, whereas pride has a direct impact on all of them.

I forgot about sloth... probably for good reason too. Those demons never impressed me... I guess it fits into my theory well enough, since only a very prideful individual would totally give in to sloth and still think everything will be okay... right?

[Rifneno]

And while a composite of a lot of religions, most of it is borrowed from Christianity. Where the devil himself was felled by pride.

Sloth's stock went up greatly when it possessed Hawke though.

[IanPolaris]

In the Roman Caltholic Church tradition (and you see this in Dante's Inferno), Pride is the most powerful and devious of all the sins, and the one that ulimately defines the devil himself (thinking himself to be God and causing the first Falling) and thus is the most dangerous sin man can commit. Pride is the 9th circle of Hell and is the personal domain of Lucifer himself.

Near as I can tell, Dragon Age merely pulled this preexisting heirarchy of sins and incorporated them into their demons.

At least that's my answer and I'm sticking to it

-Polaris

[T3H Fish]

Pride Demons are the most powerful in the DA universe because they don't feed off one aspect like the other demons do. (Sloth, Rage, Desire... etc.) They've been shown to be extremely cunning and their wills are so strong they can manipulate any of these aspects of a person to achieve their goals. When someone is over-come with Pride, that is usually when they are both the most powerful and the weakest, qualities I think a Pride demon looks for in its host, though they have enough power to possess dead corpses, giving birth to the powerful Revnants and Arcane Horrors. Pride is a powerful emotion that not only effects the others (as others have said) but also blinds the individual to dangers and short-comings until it's too late.

[Rifneno]

It's also the only one that many people actually view as a good thing. Taking pride in your work, your country, your culture, whatever. People brag about that. Nobody brags about anger--err, nobody that doesn't cagefight in their underwear brags about anger. Nobody brags about glutton--oh yeah, Thanksgiving. Okay, screw it, but pride still has the most badass demon model. It's the only one that truly makes me go "OMFG, RUN!"

[Sepewrath]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

If that was true than Hunger and Desire would be the weakest demons with Anger, Sloth and Pride the strongest.

Hunger and Desire are not emotions and Anger is an emotion. Though I don't think it has anything to do with that, I think the powerful Pride and Desire, one get the most business and two reflect two of the more powerful motivators of people's behavior. People will do things out of anger yes, but its base, almost animalistic behavior, but for desires, people will do equally horrible things, but when their perfectly within their right mind. Pride encompasses desire, and pretty much all of these feelings, well except maybe Sloth lol. Unlike desire, where your only interested in getting what you want, Pride works in both directions. A prideful person will seek to make themselves better and elevate themselves over everything around them.

Like the Chantry's take on the creation of the DS, I mean if you feel your just as good as this absent god, why not take his power? Then an insult to someones pride can equally cause a massive backlash. Pride also appeals to everyone, good, bad or indifferent, desire appeals to everyone as well, but most can keep their desire in check, pride not really. No one wants someone stepping on their back to get across a muddy field, looked down upon or subjugated by another. I think Pride is just simply these most powerful motivator for a person.

[ImoenBaby]

Herr Uhl wrote...

 Rage is mindless. Desire is seldom mindless.

If you think your rights have been greviously violated, rage is one predictable result. That's no mindless reaction - you can have a whole lifetime of bottled up issues there.  It's a sliding scale thing, depending on the situation.

Anyway, carry on.

[Northern Sun]

IanPolaris wrote...

In the Roman Caltholic Church tradition (and you see this in Dante's Inferno), Pride is the most powerful and devious of all the sins, and the one that ulimately defines the devil himself (thinking himself to be God and causing the first Falling) and thus is the most dangerous sin man can commit. Pride is the 9th circle of Hell and is the personal domain of Lucifer himself.

Near as I can tell, Dragon Age merely pulled this preexisting heirarchy of sins and incorporated them into their demons.

At least that's my answer and I'm sticking to it

-Polaris

If that's the case, wouldn't desire be the weakest, since lust is the first circle after limbo? And wouldn't  rage be stronger than hunger?

[Icy Magebane]

Northern Sun wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In the Roman Caltholic Church tradition (and you see this in Dante's Inferno), Pride is the most powerful and devious of all the sins, and the one that ulimately defines the devil himself (thinking himself to be God and causing the first Falling) and thus is the most dangerous sin man can commit. Pride is the 9th circle of Hell and is the personal domain of Lucifer himself.

Near as I can tell, Dragon Age merely pulled this preexisting heirarchy of sins and incorporated them into their demons.

At least that's my answer and I'm sticking to it

-Polaris

If that's the case, wouldn't desire be the weakest, since lust is the first circle after limbo? And wouldn't  rage be stronger than hunger?

Wow, I forgot hunger demons as well... must be having an off day.  I don't know anything about Catholocism, but I'll say that all of these emotions stem from primal instinct, whereas Pride is a more conscious and focused aspect of the human mind.  Maybe that's the difference.

[Sajuro]

Pride: I should be able to have any woman I want, Lust
Pride: How dare he insult me! He shall pay the price for crossing me, Wrath
Pride: The world is mine, Greed
Pride: I need not waste my time on such a trivial task, sloth
Pride: I will eat what I want and when I want because I am me dammit, gluttony.

simply put, Pride is viewed as the root of all sins, it is because of pride that the magisters breached the fade, it is because of Pride that Uldred started using blood magic and almost got the ferelden circle anulled, and it is because of pride that Loghain let Ostagar be lost. Pride led him to believe he alone knew what was best for the country and pride for his country and accomplishments blinded him from the possibility of getting help from the Orlesians.

[Urzon]

If that's the case, wouldn't desire be the weakest, since lust is the first circle after limbo? And wouldn't  rage be stronger than hunger?

Desire is alot bigger than simply lust, and it could almost at the form of anything and everything.

Desire for power.
Desire for love.
Desire for wealth.
Desire for knowledge.
Desire for violence.
Desire for pleasure.

They are one of more powerful demons because they are so flexible. While some demons only focus on a singular emotion or thought. Desire takes a form to suit the needs of anyone that call upon it.

Modifié par Urzon, 22 août 2011 - 04:04 .

[Icy Magebane]

@Urzon: Pride is the overarching theme. Without pride, you will not act upon such desires.

[Urzon]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Urzon: Pride is the overarching theme. Without pride, you will not act upon such desires.

You don't need to be prideful to desire something or want it, let alone act on said desires. A person with alot of pride might have an easier time getting what they desire, but that in no way means that people without it cannot.

Modifié par Urzon, 22 août 2011 - 04:54 .

[Icy Magebane]

Urzon wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Urzon: Pride is the overarching theme. Without pride, you will not act upon such desires.

You don't need to be prideful to desire something or want it, let alone act on said desires. A person with alot of pride might have an easier time getting what they desire, but that in no way means that people without it cannot.

If you have little or no pride in yourself and your ability to accomplish your goals, you will not act upon your desires.

I'm saying that for the most part, pride (convincing oneself that one will succeede), prompts action... desire can fester for months, decades, and years.  Without pride, desire is meaningless.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 22 août 2011 - 05:07 .

[IanPolaris]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The more base an emotion, the less powerful.

If that was true than Hunger and Desire would be the weakest demons with Anger, Sloth and Pride the strongest.

Except there are IIRC 7 mortal sins and Desire encompasses more than just Lust.  It would also include Greed as well.

-Polaris

[Urzon]

I'm saying that for the most part, pride (convincing oneself that one will succeede), prompts action... desire can fester for months, decades, and years.  Without pride, desire is meaningless.

Ah, but Desire can prompt action just as much as Pride can, if not more so. The difference is that Pride usually prompts bigger and greater actions. While Desire is usually self-serving in the end.

Have you ever seen an addict before, or any addiction? Their desire for their fix consumes them longer they are away from it. It makes them do anything and everything that they can do to get it. An addiction is the ultimate form of Desire. It consumes them whole, and makes them desire nothing but their addiction, and they will gladly give up their pride to get it as well.

Modifié par Urzon, 22 août 2011 - 05:26 .

[Morroian]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Urzon: Pride is the overarching theme. Without pride, you will not act upon such desires.

Yep, pride encompasses ambition which is perhaps the most powerful driver.