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Why is Pride the strongest?


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#26
Boiny Bunny

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Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

In my experience people are more likely to do incredibly stupid things due to pride but it seems most of the really evil or twisted acts occur because of people's desires and greed. 

Pride is far less influtential over a large group of people than desire but is also more readily resisted by an individual. For every person who does something stupid or malicious out of wounded pride there is another who can act rationally, but if offered their heart's desire, the very thing they strive for every day, few people could resist that.

So why then is Pride the strongest form of demon that we know of? It's never made sense to me especially because of the few Pride abominations we meet in the games, they are often seem to be driven by Pride as much as Desire, for example the Baroness; she kills young women and uses blood magic to prolong her youthfulness and life, she is driven by her pride in her appearance as much as her desire to be beautiful and live forever.

As a side note do you think there are stronger demons above Pride and Desire?


I would argue that the hierarchy of demons appear to be named in order of escalating complexity and evolution. 

Rage is a very basic and primal emotion, and often, achieves little in terms of negatives (to clarify this point: rage is often not something that lasts or is given much intelligent thought.  Somebody filled with rage may hurt another person, or even kill them, or just smash some objects, scream, etc.)  Pride on the other hand, is a much more complex emotion, and capable of causing much greater evil.

Negative actions attributable to pride are more often than not, complex plans, that can result in mass suffering for many.  Of particular note, pride in the physical characteristics of one's body (e.g. race, gender, etc.)  Arguably, the holocaust was attributable to pride.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 22 août 2011 - 05:40 .


#27
Neminea

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I also agree with the statement that pride is the one that also has aspects to it that we think are good (the pride in your work thing). If pride really is a sin (not getting into a theological discussion here) then it's so much worse than the others because it's so ingrained that we don't even recognize it as a sin half the time.

#28
GavrielKay

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It could also have to do with the sustainability of the emotion behind it. Rage and hunger tend to either be satisfied or burn through the person. Sloth is pervasive and easy to fall into but you don't really want it. Desire is a powerful force but we want it fulfilled rather than sustained. Only Pride is something we want to have and keep really.

#29
idoless24

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Even though the thread was basically already answered, I'll throw in my two cents!

In Paradise Lost (woo whippin out the big guns! lol) it is the most blasphemous sin because it's basically the reason for why Lucifer and the other angels fall. Pride is the assumption that you are equal to God. It rivals the others because of the absolute denial that you could be not as good, or not as great, as God.

#30
David Gaider

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Boiny Bunny wrote...
I would argue that the hierarchy of demons appear to be named in order of escalating complexity and evolution. 


This is essentially it, though the hierarchy itself is a construct of human observers and nothing that the demons themselves abide by. There is room for nuance among the demons-- you could, for instance, encounter a powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution... a very powerful and complex motivation beyond simple anger. On the flip side, you could find a much less powerful Desire demon that focused simply on Lust. The more complex the demon's demesne, the more psychic "territory" it possesses in the Fade and thus the more powerful it becomes.

There are also some demonic "groups" that haven't been placed on that heirarchy (primarily because we didn't want to discuss demons we weren't going to show), but they definitely exist: Fear, Despair, Envy and Remorse being the primary. These are often looked on as sub-groups of the other types, but the demons would likely disagree with such an assessment (they're a territorial bunch).
  • Liae Naelyon aime ceci

#31
Wulfram

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David Gaider wrote...

you could, for instance, encounter a powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution... a very powerful and complex motivation beyond simple anger.


Like the fellow inside Anders?

#32
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

you could, for instance, encounter a powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution... a very powerful and complex motivation beyond simple anger.


Like the fellow inside Anders?


Hawke isn't a demon.


:mellow::mellow::lol:

#33
Rifneno

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Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

you could, for instance, encounter a powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution... a very powerful and complex motivation beyond simple anger.


Like the fellow inside Anders?


4 minutes before someone said it.  *sigh*

#34
Herr Uhl

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Rifneno wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

you could, for instance, encounter a powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution... a very powerful and complex motivation beyond simple anger.


Like the fellow inside Anders?


4 minutes before someone said it.  *sigh*


What is so bad about asking that?

#35
ipgd

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

you could, for instance, encounter a powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution... a very powerful and complex motivation beyond simple anger.


Like the fellow inside Anders?


Hawke isn't a demon.


:mellow::mellow::lol:

I laffed.

#36
tmp7704

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Hawke isn't a demon.

:mellow::mellow::lol:

Speak for yourself; my Hawke was a demon between the sheets.

Posted Image

#37
Rinji the Bearded

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Like the fellow inside Anders?


Hawke isn't a demon.


:mellow::mellow::lol:


This post wins, thread over.

#38
jamesp81

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Herr Uhl wrote...

The more base an emotion, the less powerful. You can manipulate someone by their hunger, rage, desire or sloth only to a point. With pride, you can direct almost every aspect of their life. It takes a more skilled manipulator though. Pride can lead to desire, you deserving more.

And no, I don't think there are any other stronger demonic entities.


There's a codex entry you can get DA2, I think it's when you're rescuing Feynriel in the fade.  It indicates that those who study such things have determined that if a greater pride demon crossed the veil and possessed a host, the resulting abomination could single handedly destroy the entire world.

I may not have liked how the templars operated in kirkwall, but with that sort of threat, you can kind of see why they do it.

#39
TheJediSaint

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Since Mr. Gaider brought up the subject of Demons that have not shown up in DA yet, I am curious in a semi-serious way if there's such a thing as a spirit or demon of Humor? And if such a thing does, what happens if such a spirit or demon were to possess someone? Would we get some kind of clown-abomination, or perhaps just Groucho Marx?

#40
Fallstar

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I think its because Pride is traditionally the highest sin. In a lot of religious stories, people defeat the other six sins, then they feel proud of what they have accomplished and bam, we've got pride. Its basically seen as the hardest sin to avoid, so in the DA setting it presents as the strongest demon.

#41
tmp7704

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jamesp81 wrote...

There's a codex entry you can get DA2, I think it's when you're rescuing Feynriel in the fade.  It indicates that those who study such things have determined that if a greater pride demon crossed the veil and possessed a host, the resulting abomination could single handedly destroy the entire world.

I may not have liked how the templars operated in kirkwall, but with that sort of threat, you can kind of see why they do it.

Of course, it's bit harder to take that writing seriously when the pride demons are delegated to role of slightly more rare mook, and you even get to beat multiples of them at the time.

And they scoffed that stapling archdemons together for the sequel would be a cheap move... Posted Image

#42
tmp7704

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TheJediSaint wrote...

Since Mr. Gaider brought up the subject of Demons that have not shown up in DA yet, I am curious in a semi-serious way if there's such a thing as a spirit or demon of Humor? And if such a thing does, what happens if such a spirit or demon were to possess someone? Would we get some kind of clown-abomination, or perhaps just Groucho Marx?


Posted Image

obv.

#43
Fallstar

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Whilst on the topic of stronger demons, I believe the Forgotten Ones are stronger than your run of the mill pride demon. So far we've had Xebenkeck, a very powerful desire demon, and Gaxkang, a very powerful demon who I think is pride but I think someone mentioned he could be hunger.
His dialogue makes me think pride, saying things like "I will not be a footnote!" seems pretty proud to me.

#44
jamesp81

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tmp7704 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

There's a codex entry you can get DA2, I think it's when you're rescuing Feynriel in the fade.  It indicates that those who study such things have determined that if a greater pride demon crossed the veil and possessed a host, the resulting abomination could single handedly destroy the entire world.

I may not have liked how the templars operated in kirkwall, but with that sort of threat, you can kind of see why they do it.

Of course, it's bit harder to take that writing seriously when the pride demons are delegated to role of slightly more rare mook, and you even get to beat multiples of them at the time.

And they scoffed that stapling archdemons together for the sequel would be a cheap move... Posted Image


The codex entry can be taken seriously.....remember, it speaks of a greater pride demon.  Not a regular pride demon.  In neither game have you encountered a greater pride demon as evidenced by the fact that Thedas is not a massive smoking crater.

#45
whykikyouwhy

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@TheJediSaint - Wouldn't Fen'Harel be the embodiment of humor? Or at least mischief. I wonder if the qualities personified in demons are also personified in gods (but over the years, the gods became more unique in their personas - became padded/fleshed out).

#46
TheJediSaint

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tmp7704 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Since Mr. Gaider brought up the subject of Demons that have not shown up in DA yet, I am curious in a semi-serious way if there's such a thing as a spirit or demon of Humor? And if such a thing does, what happens if such a spirit or demon were to possess someone? Would we get some kind of clown-abomination, or perhaps just Groucho Marx?


Posted Image

obv.


Well, I think I'm going to go huddle in corner with my security blanket.:crying:

#47
Torax

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Oh, like i really needed that nightmare fuel Tmp. Thx >.<

#48
TheJediSaint

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

@TheJediSaint - Wouldn't Fen'Harel be the embodiment of humor? Or at least mischief. I wonder if the qualities personified in demons are also personified in gods (but over the years, the gods became more unique in their personas - became padded/fleshed out).


I got the impression that Fen'Harel is more the emodiment of treachery rather than humor, at least the way Merril explained him.  As for the connction between Elfy gods and spirits, that's never been made clear.  It's not even clear if Elven gods were a part of the Fade or not.

#49
tmp7704

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jamesp81 wrote...

The codex entry can be taken seriously.....remember, it speaks of a greater pride demon.  Not a regular pride demon.  In neither game have you encountered a greater pride demon as evidenced by the fact that Thedas is not a massive smoking crater.

Alternatively, the alleged greater pride demons either don't exist, or have far less power than presumed, not unlike their smaller cousins who are also supposed to be very powerful and yet repeatedly get squashed by Hawke like bugs.

After all, how would anyone actually know a greater pride demon is capable of turning entire world into massive smoking crater? As you point out yourself, Thedas isn't one yet so either no greater pride demon managed to get out of Fade ever, or... well, we're back to these other possible explanations.

#50
whykikyouwhy

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Wild speculation from left field - what if a greater pride demon was somehow involved in the origin of the taint and it's emergence into the world? It's not a literal destruction of the world, but a figurative one, as the introduction of the Blight brought chaos.

Again ,a wild theory and only tangentially related to demon hierarchy.