82 réponses à ce sujet

[Fallstar]

Would you class the demon at the end of the awiergan scrolls as a greater pride demon? And as i said before, any ideas on where the forgotten ones fit into it all?

[EmperorSahlertz]

It would also depend on the host the greater pride demon takes. If Wryme, who was supposedly the greatest of his kind (needs to be taken witha grain of salt from a creature of pride), had taken Feynrial, he could very well have changed the entire world. Had he however taken, Ser Irrelevantus, of nowhereland, he would be much reduced.

[Giubba]

IanPolaris wrote...

In the Roman Caltholic Church tradition (and you see this in Dante's Inferno), Pride is the most powerful and devious of all the sins, and the one that ulimately defines the devil himself (thinking himself to be God and causing the first Falling) and thus is the most dangerous sin man can commit. Pride is the 9th circle of Hell and is the personal domain of Lucifer himself.

Near as I can tell, Dragon Age merely pulled this preexisting heirarchy of sins and incorporated them into their demons.

At least that's my answer and I'm sticking to it

-Polaris

Absolutely not.

The 9th circle of hell is the section where the traitor are bounded for the eternity, actualy in the divine commedy there isn't a circle dedicated to pride as a sin.

Modifié par Giubba1985, 22 août 2011 - 04:14 .

[Neminea]

tmp7704 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The codex entry can be taken seriously.....remember, it speaks of a greater pride demon.  Not a regular pride demon.  In neither game have you encountered a greater pride demon as evidenced by the fact that Thedas is not a massive smoking crater.

Alternatively, the alleged greater pride demons either don't exist, or have far less power than presumed, not unlike their smaller cousins who are also supposed to be very powerful and yet repeatedly get squashed by Hawke like bugs.

After all, how would anyone actually know a greater pride demon is capable of turning entire world into massive smoking crater? As you point out yourself, Thedas isn't one yet so either no greater pride demon managed to get out of Fade ever, or... well, we're back to these other possible explanations.

They (people in thedas) probably did some research on it, and given that part of their religion is: the worst thing aside from the maker turning his gaze away is the blight, and pride caused the blight, the assumption that a greater pride demon would destroy the world is an easy one to make.
In fact, if the whole pride caused the magisters to try and go to the Golden City thing is true, then hasn't Pride technically allready "destroyed the world:  as they knew it?

[Wulfram]

Rifneno wrote...

4 minutes before someone said it.  *sigh*

It seemed an obvious question, considering the way Anders speaks of the spirit inside him

"But I guess I had too much anger.  Once he was inside me, he.... changed"
"There was too much hatred in me.  Justice thought he would overcome that."
"But my anger... when I see templars now, things that have always outraged me, but I could never do anything about..."
"He comes out.  And he is no longer my friend Justice.  He is a force of vengeance.  And he has no grasp of mercy."
(My emphasis)

Sounds like a "powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution" to me.  Of course, Anders himself does also vehemently deny that Justice is a demon.

[Neminea]

That reminds me of the party member between justice and anders, where anders suggest that justice might become a demon if he lets his desires rule him.

[t0mm06]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

In my experience people are more likely to do incredibly stupid things due to pride but it seems most of the really evil or twisted acts occur because of people's desires and greed. 

Pride is far less influtential over a large group of people than desire but is also more readily resisted by an individual. For every person who does something stupid or malicious out of wounded pride there is another who can act rationally, but if offered their heart's desire, the very thing they strive for every day, few people could resist that.

So why then is Pride the strongest form of demon that we know of? It's never made sense to me especially because of the few Pride abominations we meet in the games, they are often seem to be driven by Pride as much as Desire, for example the Baroness; she kills young women and uses blood magic to prolong her youthfulness and life, she is driven by her pride in her appearance as much as her desire to be beautiful and live forever.

As a side note do you think there are stronger demons above Pride and Desire?

The easiest way of looking at this is, rage can cause a man, in the heat of the moment, to stike down his wife and kill her.
Pride causes empires to be built on mass slavery and the death of innocens. 

[David Gaider]

t0mm06 wrote...
The easiest way of looking at this is, rage can cause a man, in the heat of the moment, to stike down his wife and kill her. Pride causes empires to be built on mass slavery and the death of innocens.

Oh, I don't know. Rage can make you build things. I've seen a few YouTube videos that were mostly constructed from it, after all, and there's a few folks in and around these forums that seem to sustain themselves on it. I don't know that this necessarily debunks it as a lesser form of demonic motivation, however.

[Rifneno]

In retrospect, I have to ask... how is remorse a demon theme?

jamesp81 wrote...

There's a codex entry you can get DA2, I think it's when you're rescuing Feynriel in the fade. It indicates that those who study such things have determined that if a greater pride demon crossed the veil and possessed a host, the resulting abomination could single handedly destroy the entire world.

I may not have liked how the templars operated in kirkwall, but with that sort of threat, you can kind of see why they do it.

One senior enchanter's opinion without a shred of supporting evidence. That plus $99.99 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I mean seriously, destroy the world? People have been working for magic for nearly 10,000 years. Could be more, records only go back to the founding of Arlathan 8,500~ years ago. If there was a legitimate threat of an abomination that could destroy the world, either it'd have happened by now or it's such a rare occurance as to not even warrant attention. Like an apocalyptic asteroid strike.

Torax wrote...

Oh, like i really needed that nightmare fuel Tmp. Thx >.<

Be glad he didn't post the version with the usual quotes. : (It's not sad because of the clown thing, it's sad because its mother was snorting lyrium while pregnant and it was born with 4 eyes)

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Wild speculation from left field - what if a greater pride demon was somehow involved in the origin of the taint and it's emergence into the world? It's not a literal destruction of the world, but a figurative one, as the introduction of the Blight brought chaos.

Again ,a wild theory and only tangentially related to demon hierarchy.

Oh lord. I'm usually all in favor of crazy speculation and theories, but let's not give legitimacy to that codex line...

Wulfram wrote...

It seemed an obvious question, considering the way Anders speaks of the spirit inside him

"But I guess I had too much anger. Once he was inside me, he.... changed"
"There was too much hatred in me. Justice thought he would overcome that."
"But my anger... when I see templars now, things that have always outraged me, but I could never do anything about..."
"He comes out. And he is no longer my friend Justice. He is a force of vengeance. And he has no grasp of mercy."
(My emphasis)

Sounds like a "powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution" to me. Of course, Anders himself does also vehemently deny that Justice is a demon.

I guess... I'm just tired of hearing that Justice is a demon now. That a spirit merger is different than a demonic possession is why we can't just cure him Connor style. True demons aren't changed by their host's personalities, why is Justice? What kind of demonic abomination spends 7 years healing people for free in a sewer before? He really only does two evil deeds. Turning on Ella, and blowing up the Chantry. One is a mistake and the other can be argued as being a positive thing. So two sketchy evils years apart while spending all his time in a self-sacrficing effort to help people. Doesn't sound very demonic to me.

Don't get me wrong, Justice isn't exactly someone I'd be sending a Christmas card. But I don't think it's even possible for him to be a demon. Hell we don't even have any actual evidence that spirits can become demons at all. And before someone quotes the Awakening convo, read them all.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

Oh, I don't know. Rage can make you build things. I've seen a few YouTube videos that were mostly constructed from it, after all, and there's a few folks in and around these forums that seem to sustain themselves on it. I don't know that this necessarily debunks it as a lesser form of demonic motivation, however.

Come to think of it, it'd be pretty easy to peg most of the forum posters everywhere as members of the four basic demon groups ;/

(and the lurking Shades, ofc)

[whykikyouwhy]

@Rifneno - I'm not sure *which* codex line you mean (in the hundreds we've ripped apart and scrutinized). I wasn't so much trying to legitimize any section of the Chant, for example, although I maintain that the chantry's teachings are based on some kernel of truth, with lots of fluff added on top. As such, I meant to imply that a pride demon was summoned to rip a hole in the door to Rotten Twinkie/Oil/Golden-Black City.

So if that *did* happen (in my wild imagination), then it could explain why legend and lore equate the portal crossing as a sin of pride etc etc and so forth. Forget that it was the summoning of a demon....no, let's spin it as allegory. It will be easier to swallow as a tenet.

But I guess I could just stick to cheese conspiracies.

[Fallstar]

I don't think a spirit could become a demon under normal circumstances, simply by definition. I was under the impression that demons are a sub set of spirits, all spirits are in essence an idea or emotion, and those that are negative, manifest as demons. As such, unless a spirit could somehow change its identity, which would be impossible under normal circumstances, a spirit could not become a demon. However, when a consensual possession occurs, the minds of the mage and the spirit merge, which changes both mage and spirit. As Anders says, "I can't tell where he begins and I end anymore" (paraphrased). If enough of those negative emotions that belong to the mage are transferred to the spirit, and if the spirit was sensitive to those ideas in the first place (for example Justice would be sensitive to the injustices suffered by mages at the hands of Templars) , then the spirit can change, in this case from Justice to Vengeance.

Thats my rationalisation for it anyway. I personally can barely tell the differece between Vengeance and Justice, although I wish we had more Vengeance scenes.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 22 août 2011 - 05:46 .

[TheJediSaint]

I suspect that lore wise, there is no hierarchy among the different classes of demons. My guess is that the apparent presence of a hierarchy of demons in-game mostly due to game play decisions. The power of an individual demons had more to do with "turf" rather than what they happen to embody. This being the case, even something as apparently banal as a hunger demon could potentially become very powerful.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 22 août 2011 - 05:52 .

[TEWR]

DuskWarden wrote...

I don't think a spirit could become a demon under normal circumstances, simply by definition. I was under the impression that demons are a sub set of spirits, all spirits are in essence an idea or emotion, and those that are negative, manifest as demons. As such, unless a spirit could somehow change its identity, which would be impossible under normal circumstances, a spirit could not become a demon. However, when a consensual possession occurs, the minds of the mage and the spirit merge, which changes both mage and spirit. As Anders says, "I can't tell where he begins and I end anymore" (paraphrased). If enough of those negative emotions that belong to the mage are transferred to the spirit, and if the spirit was sensitive to those ideas in the first place (for example Justice would be sensitive to the injustices suffered by mages at the hands of Templars) , then the spirit can change, in this case from Justice to Vengeance.

Thats my rationalisation for it anyway. I personally can barely tell the differece between Vengeance and Justice, although I wish we had more Vengeance scenes.

I like to think of Justice as no longer being just a spirit and not being just a demon. He's both a spirit and demon intertwined as one completely new thing. Vengeance and Justice are two sides of the same coin after all, with one side being a darker shade.

I don't think a spirit can turn into an actual demon, but they can definitely change. Whatever Justice is now, he's not entirely evil. If he was, he would've taken over Anders completely (even in Rivalry, he's not taking Anders over out of a sense of "This body is mine!!". Instead, it's because something needs to be done).

He's also very nice to Hawke when they go into the Fade in Feynriel's dream. At least, before you deal with Torpor. And really, I would probably have done the same thing Justice did.

Also, devs can we see more Justice take-overs in the future? I didn't really get this sense of Justice being inside of Anders. I only see him like 2-4 times in the whole entire game, when Anders keeps remarking on his problem with Justice.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 août 2011 - 01:31 .

[GavrielKay]

Neminea wrote...

They (people in thedas) probably did some research on it, and given that part of their religion is: the worst thing aside from the maker turning his gaze away is the blight, and pride caused the blight, the assumption that a greater pride demon would destroy the world is an easy one to make.
In fact, if the whole pride caused the magisters to try and go to the Golden City thing is true, then hasn't Pride technically allready "destroyed the world:  as they knew it?

If Corypheus in Legacy is to be believed, it was less pride that drove the magisters and more cojoling by their god Dumat.  Of course that wouldn't be widely known to Thedas.

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

Neminea wrote...

They (people in thedas) probably did some research on it, and given that part of their religion is: the worst thing aside from the maker turning his gaze away is the blight, and pride caused the blight, the assumption that a greater pride demon would destroy the world is an easy one to make.
In fact, if the whole pride caused the magisters to try and go to the Golden City thing is true, then hasn't Pride technically allready "destroyed the world:  as they knew it?

If Corypheus in Legacy is to be believed, it was less pride that drove the magisters and more cojoling by their god Dumat.  Of course that wouldn't be widely known to Thedas.

The Chant is actually very contradictory. At one moment it says the Old Gods (and Dumat specifically) goaded them to invade the City, but at another moment it says that it was their own idea.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Wild speculation from left field - what if a greater pride demon was somehow involved in the origin of the taint and it's emergence into the world? It's not a literal destruction of the world, but a figurative one, as the introduction of the Blight brought chaos.

Again ,a wild theory and only tangentially related to demon hierarchy.

The same sort of thing occurred to me after I wrote the post.

Given the sheer power of a greater pride demon, it might not be a stretch to think that the old gods themselves are greater pride demons.  And archdemons certainly have demonstrated the will and capability to destroy the entire world.

[jamesp81]

One senior enchanter's opinion without a shred of supporting evidence.
That plus $99.99 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I mean
seriously, destroy the world? People have been working for magic for
nearly 10,000 years. Could be more, records only go back to the
founding of Arlathan 8,500~ years ago. If there was a legitimate threat
of an abomination that could destroy the world, either it'd have
happened by now or it's such a rare occurance as to not even warrant
attention. Like an apocalyptic asteroid strike.

Not a safe assumption.

Most likely more powerful spirits have greater difficulty crossing the veil.  If that be the case, then a greater pride demon would have the most trouble making the transition.  There may not yet have been a mage capable of weaving a working powerful enough to do it.  Maybe when the magisters physically entered the fade, that spell could've been powerful enough, but they used 2/3 of all the lyrium in the imperium, and an ocean of blood to do that.

[jamesp81]

DuskWarden wrote...

I don't think a spirit could become a demon under normal circumstances, simply by definition. I was under the impression that demons are a sub set of spirits, all spirits are in essence an idea or emotion, and those that are negative, manifest as demons. As such, unless a spirit could somehow change its identity, which would be impossible under normal circumstances, a spirit could not become a demon. However, when a consensual possession occurs, the minds of the mage and the spirit merge, which changes both mage and spirit. As Anders says, "I can't tell where he begins and I end anymore" (paraphrased). If enough of those negative emotions that belong to the mage are transferred to the spirit, and if the spirit was sensitive to those ideas in the first place (for example Justice would be sensitive to the injustices suffered by mages at the hands of Templars) , then the spirit can change, in this case from Justice to Vengeance.

Thats my rationalisation for it anyway. I personally can barely tell the differece between Vengeance and Justice, although I wish we had more Vengeance scenes.

Yeah, I thought Vengeance was pretty awesome:happy:

I probably enabled him too much.  Like with Ella...

Vengeance: YOU WILL NEVER HARM ANOTHER MAGE AGAIN!
Hawke: We will them ALL, I promise you.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

In retrospect, I have to ask... how is remorse a demon theme?

jamesp81 wrote...

There's a codex entry you can get DA2, I think it's when you're rescuing Feynriel in the fade. It indicates that those who study such things have determined that if a greater pride demon crossed the veil and possessed a host, the resulting abomination could single handedly destroy the entire world.

I may not have liked how the templars operated in kirkwall, but with that sort of threat, you can kind of see why they do it.

One senior enchanter's opinion without a shred of supporting evidence. That plus $99.99 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I mean seriously, destroy the world? People have been working for magic for nearly 10,000 years. Could be more, records only go back to the founding of Arlathan 8,500~ years ago. If there was a legitimate threat of an abomination that could destroy the world, either it'd have happened by now or it's such a rare occurance as to not even warrant attention. Like an apocalyptic asteroid strike.

There is Wryme and Feynriel, which would have changed the face of the world...

[Morroian]

DuskWarden wrote...

Whilst on the topic of stronger demons, I believe the Forgotten Ones are stronger than your run of the mill pride demon. So far we've had Xebenkeck, a very powerful desire demon, and Gaxkang, a very powerful demon who I think is pride but I think someone mentioned he could be hunger.
His dialogue makes me think pride, saying things like "I will not be a footnote!" seems pretty proud to me.

They're the Forbidden Ones, the Forgotten Ones are the adversaries in the Elven pantheon. The Forbidden Ones are supposedly the demons who first taught blood magic to humans.

[Rocket_Man77]

naledgeborn wrote...

According to Chantry lore it was the pride and hubris of man that tainted the Golden City. Biting off more than you can chew is bad I guess.

I really like this quote. That about sums it up.

[Maconbar]

Pride cometh before the fall - Proverbs16:18.

[Sajuro]

David Gaider wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
I would argue that the hierarchy of demons appear to be named in order of escalating complexity and evolution. 

 There is room for nuance among the demons-- you could, for instance, encounter a powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution... a very powerful and complex motivation beyond simple anger.

Couldn't it be argued that Retribution is also a being of pride? I say that since it is brought upon by a slight real or percieved to oneself, at least it means as much in the Mass Effect book of the same title.

[MiniMosher]

I'm going with the complexity and deceiving nature of pride reason that others have said

its like with rage, people get to that point where it just boils over and they go ape ****, most of us are aware that we completly lose it but just dont care or regret it later

even with desire; ''I know its crazy but I really need him/her'' we are aware of the temptation, some just give into it easyer than others

but with pride, patriots dont say anything like ''I am proud, but I know that national pride could make me xenophobic if I dont take caution'' they'll just shrug that off with singing their national anthem, people filled up with pride dont even realise how much it controls them, therefore making it the most ''blinding''