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[Sabotin]

I take it as only natural that pride is the strongest version of demons, simply because it's its nature to be powerful. While rage or desire can be just as dangerous they're turned outward; anger focused towards the object of your hate, want targeted at the object of your desire. But pride is focused inward at oneself (well, I didn't see any demons proud of others at least). Like when we say that someone is full of himself or swelling with pride. Pride is what makes you feel stronger and since the fade is a place of concepts and beliefs that would make the demon actually stronger.

As for a pride abomination destroying the world - perhaps, but I believe this kind of demon is too proud to don the skin of a lesser race .

[Neminea]

I have a question. I am not a linguist (is that even how it's spelled) but the dutch word for pride (trots) is kind of like the dutch word "bank" which can both mean couch and an actual bank. What I mean is that it has two different meanings, though they are rather simulair. Being proud of someone, or of yourself is a good thing, while being pridefull or pride in general is bad (taken from the dutch meaning) and are actually two different (though simulair) emotions. Is it the same in english?

[whykikyouwhy]

Neminea wrote...

I have a question. I am not a linguist (is that even how it's spelled) but the dutch word for pride (trots) is kind of like the dutch word "bank" which can both mean couch and an actual bank. What I mean is that it has two different meanings, though they are rather simulair. Being proud of someone, or of yourself is a good thing, while being pridefull or pride in general is bad (taken from the dutch meaning) and are actually two different (though simulair) emotions. Is it the same in english?

It's two sides of the same coin, more or less - so the same core emotion is pride, but the application dictates the negative or positive quality. The word is the same though, which is the case with a lot of the English language. Really, being proud of someone should be described more as pleased or content/contented in English (which have more positive connotations), whereas being prideful is all about the ego.

Hopefully I answered your question properly.

[Neminea]

Yes thank you, just wanted to be sure

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Neminea wrote...

I have a question. I am not a linguist (is that even how it's spelled) but the dutch word for pride (trots) is kind of like the dutch word "bank" which can both mean couch and an actual bank. What I mean is that it has two different meanings, though they are rather simulair. Being proud of someone, or of yourself is a good thing, while being pridefull or pride in general is bad (taken from the dutch meaning) and are actually two different (though simulair) emotions. Is it the same in english?

It's two sides of the same coin, more or less - so the same core emotion is pride, but the application dictates the negative or positive quality. The word is the same though, which is the case with a lot of the English language. Really, being proud of someone should be described more as pleased or content/contented in English (which have more positive connotations), whereas being prideful is all about the ego.

Hopefully I answered your question properly.

Having pride or ego is nothing bad in itself. Just open any dictionary and you're more likely going to encounter a primary meaning that talks about them being gauges of self-worth and self-esteem. Ego and pride is in some measure present in anyone and they act to boost the person's confidence in the face of adversity, facing the unknown, driving forward, and so on.

It is rather unfortunate, I think, that religous-speak has hijacked both these terms to present them only in their negative senses. In my mind, I always append a "false" to them (false-pride or false-ego) to distinguish their negative senses, which to me denote mostly the unearned or the boastful aspect of one's self. Primarily, pride and ego are positive emotions for me.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

In my experience people are more likely to do incredibly stupid things due to pride but it seems most of the really evil or twisted acts occur because of people's desires and greed. 

Pride is far less influtential over a large group of people than desire but is also more readily resisted by an individual. For every person who does something stupid or malicious out of wounded pride there is another who can act rationally, but if offered their heart's desire, the very thing they strive for every day, few people could resist that.

So why then is Pride the strongest form of demon that we know of? It's never made sense to me especially because of the few Pride abominations we meet in the games, they are often seem to be driven by Pride as much as Desire, for example the Baroness; she kills young women and uses blood magic to prolong her youthfulness and life, she is driven by her pride in her appearance as much as her desire to be beautiful and live forever.

I think the rationale is that a person who is "proud" (in general, or about something) is less likely to fall prey to any of the things like rage or desire, simply because that person's self-worth (in this case, the inflated variety) would more likely prevent it - the impression is one of "it is below my level to fall prey to them" I guess. Whereas pander to that false-pride itself and he/she's likely to fall prey. And, as a corollary, a demon who preys on a person's false-pride is stronger because I suppose it takes more effort to offer something of value to a person who feels that false-pride.

Or something like that.

[MichaelFinnegan]

David Gaider wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
I would argue that the hierarchy of demons appear to be named in order of escalating complexity and evolution. 

This is essentially it, though the hierarchy itself is a construct of human observers and nothing that the demons themselves abide by. There is room for nuance among the demons-- you could, for instance, encounter a powerful Rage demon that focused on Retribution... a very powerful and complex motivation beyond simple anger. On the flip side, you could find a much less powerful Desire demon that focused simply on Lust. The more complex the demon's demesne, the more psychic "territory" it possesses in the Fade and thus the more powerful it becomes.

So, if I understand that correctly, the more the demon craves for complexity (in emotions, at least in human terms?), and is successful in acquiring it (by means of possessions), the more "psychic" territory it possesses in the Fade? If "psychic" is a reference to the "mind" then the Fade is within the mind? I don't suppose you meant a person's mind, though. Perhaps like a collective of all minds? Or perhaps "psychic" was a reference to the unknown or the spirit. Ah, well. In any case, the more such territory in the Fade a demon possesses the more powerful it becomes? So it all comes down to the demon's own complexity in craving? Curious to say the least.

I think in the Lost in Dreams quest in DAO, the sloth demon had acquired more territory for itself in the Fade. It almost seemed as if all those other demons were subserviant to this one demon, in the sense that we had to defeat some of them to gain access to the sloth demon. That did indicate to me that some of the demons might actually have a hierarchy of some sort within the Fade. I don't know about those demons which had "trapped" the companions though.

And the demon that had possessed Uldred perhaps was the strongest of the lot. I wonder what relation it had with the sloth demon (if any?). I don't remember encountering it in that portion of the Fade, so perhaps it had already moved into the mortal realm.

There are also some demonic "groups" that haven't been placed on that heirarchy (primarily because we didn't want to discuss demons we weren't going to show), but they definitely exist: Fear, Despair, Envy and Remorse being the primary. These are often looked on as sub-groups of the other types, but the demons would likely disagree with such an assessment (they're a territorial bunch).

Does that mean that the primary motivating factor for a demon is to occupy more territory in the Fade? To what end, I wonder...

[EmperorSahlertz]

The same reasons that some of us always crave more, and more. It is just the way things are.