200 réponses à ce sujet

[Plakto]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Plakto wrote...

I am shocked at the comfort level of keeping an entire race of people "In check". Arguments that populations control aside, how comfortable would you feel if all the aliens in the galaxy made a human genophage. Consider. Humans are extremely adaptive. Can reproduce multiple times with a relatively short gestation, and despite we don't breed as far as krogan, we make it up by being smarter. We also have a habit of being very selfish and warmongering ourselves, kicking in the galactic door and taking of charge without being in citadel council space a good 50 years.

We made alot of enemies, if very viable to maintain our populations or hit us with something as brutally similar as a response to our diplomatic aggression.

I feel the only "truth" here is that it's not shepards right to make the call that an entire species should be cured. She it be made available? Hell yeah, but Wrex/Wreave (or if he had survived, Okeer; seriously.) should be determining who should be cured and in which capacity.

 If humans were trying to take over the galaxy, and kill all in their path, and were winning, I don't think I could hugely object to those aliens we were killing using a weapon against us, especially when it was designed not to wipe us out but to allow us to exist whilst not threatening the entire population of the galaxy bar us

But we haven't destroyed the galaxy, we have been spending the last millon years destroying ourseleves. We've had slavery, sexism, racism, and oppression in every form. Someone may have already metioned this but we have no history of krogan doing anything like this. Krogan always determined one another based on strength, and after they were hit with the genophage they protected their females and offspring with their lives - becoming merc group to earn enough points agmost their own people for a chance to "breed" when one is not possible on their planet.

The point I am trying to make is that we have a history more brutal than anything that has been presented in the galaxy. We are kicking down galatic doors but happen to be doing it more diplomatically than with brute force. Whereas krogan are kicking ass, taking names - we are just removing people right representation the universe, in retrospect; instead of killing them like krogan did we are diplomatically ensuring the wellbeing of humans and (if Udina is councilman) humans alone. Its like a comparision to being dead (KORGAN) or just being unable to support yourself or have the quality of life, fairness of justice that everyone deserves.

Sure the krogans ****ed up. But humans have time and time again. For Krogans it will only happen once because left alone they live long enough for them to learn not for it to happen again - humans die every century. Without a book or teacher to lead up we are bound to blow something up again.

Bottom line: the krogan should be able to learn from the fact that the universe used diseases on them. Cure them, but in a selected capacity to be determined by Wrex/Wreave. And always keep genophage round 2 available.

[Quething]

leggywillow wrote...

Quething wrote...
but instead they developed an entire system to protect all females from that treatment by obscuring the difference from anyone with reason to make an issue of it.

This is debatable. Krogan society as a whole never took this initiative. The females themselves saw the risk and entirely segregated from the males to avoid just this kind of abuse. They did this because of the violent nature of krogan society.

Krogan females aren't part of krogan society? That nearly all fertile females are willing to go along with this system to protect their sterile sisters instead of parlaying their status for power like Shiagur is already pretty huge. And the males seem to have gone along with it without complaint.

Which is damn lucky. The best-designed genophage by Mordin's standards (least damage to krogan physically, culturally and psychologically while still meeting the birthrate target) would be applicable to every birth; there would be no "fertile" females or "fertile" males, there would just a 1 in 1000 chance that any attempt by any two krogan at any time would result in viable offspring. A genophage that actually permanently sterlizies 999 in 1000 females and leaves the last alone means the salarians are idiots to a really staggering degree, and it's a damn miracle that krogan civilization did successfully prevent the commoditization of fertile females that should be the expected result. Also, it's unsurprising that the genophage was weakening with time, since evolution would naturally and inevitably select for fertile females.

@Plakto: What TobyHasEyes said. If humanity as a whole did anything as dumb and as dangerous to other species as the Krogan Rebellions, I would expect them to do the same to us. As a human, of course, I personally would probably want it cured and be pissed off that it was implemented. But I'm not going to be shocked at sentient life acting in self-defense, even at my expense.

[leggywillow]

Quething wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

Quething wrote...
but instead they developed an entire system to protect all females from that treatment by obscuring the difference from anyone with reason to make an issue of it.

This is debatable. Krogan society as a whole never took this initiative. The females themselves saw the risk and entirely segregated from the males to avoid just this kind of abuse. They did this because of the violent nature of krogan society.

Krogan females aren't part of krogan society? That nearly all fertile females are willing to go along with this system to protect their sterile sisters instead of parlaying their status for power like Shiagur is already pretty huge. And the males seem to have gone along with it without complaint.

Which is damn lucky. The best-designed genophage by Mordin's standards (least damage to krogan physically, culturally and psychologically while still meeting the birthrate target) would be applicable to every birth; there would be no "fertile" females or "fertile" males, there would just a 1 in 1000 chance that any attempt by any two krogan at any time would result in viable offspring. A genophage that actually permanently sterlizies 999 in 1000 females and leaves the last alone means the salarians are idiots to a really staggering degree, and it's a damn miracle that krogan civilization did successfully prevent the commoditization of fertile females that should be the expected result. Also, it's unsurprising that the genophage was weakening with time, since evolution would naturally and inevitably select for fertile females..

I think that is how the genophage works.  It's not that only 1 krogan female in 1000 is actually fertile, though some may seem more fertile than others based on how the chips fall, which may lead to this use of the term "fertile female".  Plus, the krogan aren't geneticists.  They have no way of knowing which females are sterile and which aren't until one actually has a viable offspring.  And judging from the so-called krogan princess in the ME3 demo stuff we've seen, the fertile ones are more powerful.  Wrex himself says that the he can't do anything without getting the female clan leader's okay.

The female clans don't segregate themselves out of a sense of charity to sterile females.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.  They do it to protect the fertile ones, who are at risk of being captured and presumably rape.  And since they can't know if a female is fertile or not, all females bunch together for safety.

[Arppis]

Yes we do.

[Someone With Mass]

Wrex seems to be leading the krogans pretty well, so I'm going to help them.

Besides, we can always hit them with another sterility plague if they're going out of line.

[TobyHasEyes]

 @ Plakto

 But the point is that is exactly what the Krogan were doing.. they were going on an all-conquering rampage through the galaxy. I very much sympathise with the view expressed by Mordin that they should never have been 'uplifted' in the first place, but you have to face the situation you now find yourself in

 If we look at the history of Tuchanka, then I think the idea that our history is necessarily 'worse' is debatable, if nothing else Krogan history is at least equally brutal and violent

 But again, the point of the genophage is not to punish the Krogan, it is to recognise that in the form they were in at the time it was used, they were set on conquering the entire galaxy destroying those in their path. Considering how horrific that would be for all concerned, you have to stop them

 I also agree with the view that the Krogan should be re-introduced into the galactic community and eased off the genophage so that they can be allowed to flourish, but only when they have shown they can do that without brutal and cruel actions against others

 Wrex may be starting the cultural change that would lead to that, but I am not sure he is there yet. Before my Shepard risks another Krogan Rebellion, he would need to see a lot of change in Krogan attitudes

[Meshaber]

Mordin kinda bought me over. Best solution for entire galaxy, Krogan included.
What I don't understand is why it needs to be so bleedin' powerful. 1 in 1000? Why not 1 in 500 or 250....it's still a pretty severe change that would've probably stopped them from expanding, why have them on the constant brink of extinction?

[Xilizhra]

Anderson or Udina? The choice has been made for you.

Not in ME2. Maybe he leaves later, but how long he stays was never presented as my choice.

Keep the base or destroy the base? The choice has been made for you.

What do you mean here?

Stay with Cerberus or no? The choice has been made for you.

Well, really, it wasn't hard to see this one coming.

[LilyasAvalon]

GodWood wrote...

LGTX wrote...
I answered that. I trust him. Nothing is a 'must', I'm the one in charge of my playthrough.

No you're not.
You make the choices but Bioware makes the consequences.

Logic dictates your plans for the krogan will fail.

...You're talking about logic in a game with a race of entirely blue women that can mate with whomever, or whatever, they please?

[LilyasAvalon]

Keep the base or destroy the base? The choice has been made for you.

What do you mean here?

Even if you blew up the base, there is apparently still tech and debris left over from it that is 'recoverable'. Personally though, I do not think that you will end up with the same outcome regardless of the choice, not for this one anyway.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

I don't and if possible, I won't. I don't think the point of the "krogan princess" is a cure for the genophage.

[Aaleel]

The genophage even if I ignore the horrible implementation. Took to the Krogan from a horde to an endangered species. Not a level on par with an average or below average sized race, but an endangered species. No matter how I look at the genophage, it just makes no sense in it's current form.

[Quething]

leggywillow wrote...

I think that is how the genophage works.  It's not that only 1 krogan female in 1000 is actually fertile, though some may seem more fertile than others based on how the chips fall, which may lead to this use of the term "fertile female".  Plus, the krogan aren't geneticists.  They have no way of knowing which females are sterile and which aren't until one actually has a viable offspring.  And judging from the so-called krogan princess in the ME3 demo stuff we've seen, the fertile ones are more powerful.  Wrex himself says that the he can't do anything without getting the female clan leader's okay.

Who's to say that Uta is fertile? On what evidence do you draw that conclusion? (Who's to say Wrex is fertile? Or Wreav?)

And Mordin's racism notwithstanding, I find it pretty hard to believe that a species that can crack the atom can't put together a Mendel chart. They weren't cavemen before the salarians found them. They were about where humans are now. They had extensively mapped other planets in their solar system through astronomy, they had the heavy industry required for skyscrapers and bedrock tunnelling, they understood nuclear fission well enough to nuke themselves into a Mad Max film. And they've been in contact with significantly more advanced civilizations since; salarian uplift teams didn't just pick krogan up off Tuchanka, they taught them modern technology. Being able to tell genuine infertility from bad luck is not beyond them.

The female clans don't segregate themselves out of a sense of charity to sterile females.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.  They do it to protect the fertile ones, who are at risk of being captured and presumably rape.  And since they can't know if a female is fertile or not, all females bunch together for safety.

They can know if a female is fertile or not. Again, they're not witch doctors, they're an advanced spacefaring civilization. And hiding the fertile females among the infertile ones protects both groups, not just the fertile females. If that protection is lost, both groups will suffer; however, the fertile females will suffer less, and some would benefit if they played their cards right (Shiagur; Uta, if your assumption is correct; possibly the new krogan female in ME3). It would be really easy for any of those who would benefit to destroy the system and screw over everybody else. They don't. It would be very easy for the males to raid the camp and break the system. They don't. It's very... un-krogan of them. Which means that either they're not actually krogan, or "krogan" doesn't mean quite what we think it does.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Curing the Blood Rage is at least as important to the Krogan's survival as curing the Genophage.

Truth. I really wish the game let us dig into that a little more and not just the blanket Genophage question all the time.

Modifié par Quething, 22 août 2011 - 03:47 .

[LilyasAvalon]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Only if Wrex is alive.

This. But Wrex won't live forever, and I bet there are plenty of Krogans plotting to assassinate him.

The best plan would be to distribute the cure only to a small number of select Krogans (e.g. Charr, Mr. Thax's assistant, Wrex, Grunt), so that their population growth rate will correspond to their cultural development.

Curing the Blood Rage is at least as important to the Krogan's survival as curing the Genophage.

Bolded. He will be our answer to everything.

[Twizz089]

Are any krogan from the rebellions even alive? I dont belive in punishing children for crimes that their parents commited for the sole reason of "Salarian math says they will do it again."

[Xilizhra]

Regardin the Collector base, even if you destroyed it Cerberus is still going to get usable technology out of it. So what was the point really?

I like the ending cutscene better.

Originally I kind thought it was symbolic to show if your Shepard was going to stay with Cerberus as an ally, but even that didn't stick.

Cerberus was never going to stay as an ally. Even when you were working for them, they were presented as far too shady.

[Elvis_Mazur]

That's the question.

As much as Wrex wants to unite all the krogans, he will not live forever and there is no guarantee his successor will continue his work.

It's a risk, and I don't know how they can help in the war aside from being ground troops.

[Twizz089]

PetrySilva wrote...

That's the question.

As much as Wrex wants to unite all the krogans, he will not live forever and there is no guarantee his successor will continue his work.

It's a risk, and I don't know how they can help in the war aside from being ground troops.

Not just ground troops but they can board the reapers and take they out from the inside right?

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus was never going to stay as an ally. Even when you were working for them, they were presented as far too shady.

Oh, wait, hold on, I stepped in some BS just now.

I always thought that being an Alliance hardliner was going to stay the ultimate Renegade position. Cerberus is a twist on the concept that's clearly too dark for any Shepard to stay with, considering what it seems to have become (or, more likely, what it always was).

[leggywillow]

Quething wrote...
Who's to say that Uta is fertile? On what evidence do you draw that conclusion? (Who's to say Wrex is fertile? Or Wreav?)

She says it herself in the videos.  When you tell her that you're there on behalf of Wrex (or something like that), she says "Wrex never could keep his hands off a fertile female."

And no, no one knows if Wrex or Wreav or fertile.

And Mordin's racism notwithstanding, I find it pretty hard to believe that a species that can crack the atom can't put together a Mendel chart. They weren't cavemen before the salarians found them. They were about where humans are now. They had extensively mapped other planets in their solar system through astronomy, they had the heavy industry required for skyscrapers and bedrock tunnelling, they understood nuclear fission well enough to nuke themselves into a Mad Max film. And they've been in contact with significantly more advanced civilizations since; salarian uplift teams didn't just pick krogan up off Tuchanka, they taught them modern technology. Being able to tell genuine infertility from bad luck is not beyond them.

Did you talk to the scientist guy on Tuchanka?  Krogan society has no interest in science beyond making things go boom.  Wrex assigned the scientist to research agriculture, which the scientist found to be a baffling waste of his time.  I'm sure one of the things on Wrex's list of things to do is to start researching genetics, but they aren't there yet.  It's not they aren't capable, but it has never been supported by their society before now.  I stand by my assumption that for the most part they can't tell which females are fertile or not.