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[Twizz089]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Twizz wrote...


Quotes.  I dont remember Shep telling Wrex that Maelon was working on a cure, and then Wrex saying "I dont want a cure go kill him"

When you talk to Maelon about why he worked with the Bloodpack he tells you that he first approached Wrex but Wrex wasn't willing to carry out the experiments.

Earlier if you ask Wrex about Maelon he tells you right where he is.... but Wrex already knows what Maelon is doing.

He knows what will probably happen when Shepard gets there (proof of this is his comment about Okeer being dead because he ran into you).

All that points to is
1. Wrex wants a cure under the right circumstances
2. Hes not willing to sell the soul of his race by conducting unethical experiments
3. He doesnt want the Bloodpack to abuse a cure

How does that lead to Wrex not wanting a cure at all?

Modifié par Twizz089, 22 août 2011 - 04:24 .

[Jessihatt]

Saphra Deden wrote...

He doesn't want a cure because he doesn't need a cure.

Maelon's ruthlessness may have been part of what turned Wrex away, but if he really wanted a cure he'd have found common ground with him. Maelon was a one of a kind; an STG member who had already worked on a recent modification of the genophage. An ally like that isn't coming along again anytime soon.

Instead Wrex turned him away and when Shepard showed up he sent Shepard off to demolish his operation and likely kill him.


I repeat, the genophage is not what is killing the krogan. Wrex has known this ever since his father betrayed him. The krogan are killing the krogan with their bloodthirsty society.

A genophage cure given now will undo everything Wrex has built and eventually wind up with them being curb-stombed by the rest of the galaxy, again.

Wrex isn't stupid and he'd want to avoid this, so he wouldn't want a cure.

This is why I love Wrex.

[Twizz089]

Saphra Deden wrote...

He doesn't want a cure because he doesn't need a cure.

Maelon's ruthlessness may have been part of what turned Wrex away, but if he really wanted a cure he'd have found common ground with him. Maelon was a one of a kind; an STG member who had already worked on a recent modification of the genophage. An ally like that isn't coming along again anytime soon.

Instead Wrex turned him away and when Shepard showed up he sent Shepard off to demolish his operation and likely kill him.


I repeat, the genophage is not what is killing the krogan. Wrex has known this ever since his father betrayed him. The krogan are killing the krogan with their bloodthirsty society.

A genophage cure given now will undo everything Wrex has built and eventually wind up with them being curb-stombed by the rest of the galaxy, again.

Wrex isn't stupid and he'd want to avoid this, so he wouldn't want a cure.

Your taking too big a leap into the land of absolute conclusions.  Again Wrex has never said he would out right refuse a cure.  What he has said is that the Krogan need to work on a social cure, one can suggest that he may feel that at this point in time a medical cure, before a social one will do no good.  (Mordin suggest this also)  But to suggest that Wrex would outright refuse a medical cure if it is done the right way, is a huge jump to a conclusion based on what we know now.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

I would cure it for the assistance of the Krogan in the reaper threat. But I would keep the genophage stored in case the Krogan did become too powerful and began attacking other reapers.

Cold, I know. But the reapers' approach would be a bit more harsh.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Look what they did to their own people in ME! One lot they had a husk infestation due to their experiments and the head researcher when you corner her says Cerberus won't rescue them and will leave them to die so you killing them is a good thing.

Cerberus has a use and lose policy once they've got out of you what they want you're expendable so no I don't trust them and that was before the crew of 2 said not to.

[LilyasAvalon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

He doesn't want a cure because he doesn't need a cure.

Maelon's ruthlessness may have been part of what turned Wrex away, but if he really wanted a cure he'd have found common ground with him. Maelon was a one of a kind; an STG member who had already worked on a recent modification of the genophage. An ally like that isn't coming along again anytime soon.

Instead Wrex turned him away and when Shepard showed up he sent Shepard off to demolish his operation and likely kill him.

I repeat, the genophage is not what is killing the krogan. Wrex has known this ever since his father betrayed him. The krogan are killing the krogan with their bloodthirsty society.

A genophage cure given now will undo everything Wrex has built and eventually wind up with them being curb-stombed by the rest of the galaxy, again.

Wrex isn't stupid and he'd want to avoid this, so he wouldn't want a cure.

That's assuming that you know and understand the deeper basis of Wrex's character, which none of us can confirm. If I was in Wrex's ... erm... armor... and some half crazed, slightly delerious salarian showed up saying he could cure the genophage and all he needed were LIVE TEST SUBJECTS, quite a few being HUMANS which would have to be slave bought... I woulda kicked his sorry ass out too.

You think Wrex can take the risk of that getting out and ruining the Krogan's galactic status even more? Sure, that'll look great. Going AGAINST what the galaxy wanted with a salarian who uses human slaves as living test tubes.

At least with Mordin, it would look better, assuming Wrex was going for that angle. Mordin is an older, more level headed Salarian, who would not resort to such ILLEGAL and controversal methods with a lot more science background.

Like you said, Wrex isn't stupid. If he wants a cure, he won't risk it with a questionable salarian like Maelon.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 22 août 2011 - 04:38 .

[Quething]

leggywillow wrote...

She says it herself in the videos.  When you tell her that you're there on behalf of Wrex (or something like that), she says "Wrex never could keep his hands off a fertile female."

What does that have to do with Uta?

We know the krogan in the promos is fertile, but we don't know that she's the female Urdnot clan leader, or even a clan leader at all.

(Though speaking of: Mordin's involvement in a mission dedicated to recovery of a fertile female is pretty definitive. Even if you don't accept that the krogan could tell the difference between infertility and bad luck, you can't possibly claim that Mordin couldn't. If he agrees that this particular female matters, obviously she's genuinely different from the average.)

Did you talk to the scientist guy on Tuchanka?  Krogan society has no interest in science beyond making things go boom.

Yeah, SciFi writers are bad at anthropology. That's not new, and it doesn't matter. The existence of tomkas is all the proof you need to know krogan can, have, and do research many things not related to explosions. Of the myriad technologies required for a steel-plated moving vehicle of that size, only one goes boom in any way, shape or form, and that one way is, by necessity, a boom very carefully and meticulously controlled. One scientist does not speak for all krogan. He doesn't even speak for his entire field. Particularly not with anything like the volume that every other bit of everything in the entire Tuchanka setting does.

As for Wrex not wanting the Genophage cure... of course Wrex wants the Genophage cure. Yes, it makes his access to fertile females useless. Why would that matter? Controlling the cure would be a more than adequate substitute. Easier to manage, liberates him from consultation with Uta, doesn't require the participation of other clans...

Modifié par Quething, 22 août 2011 - 09:28 .

[lovgreno]

The genophage is moraly wrong, there is no doubt about that, but perhaps logicaly right. Kind of like nuclear weapons in the real world.

[Deejtage]

GodWood wrote...

To cure it is absolutely idiotic.

EDIT: Just read the thread and found out the majority are in favour of curing it...

W
T
F!?

Will it help against the Reapers?
No, there will not be enough time to breed millions of krogan, get them to produce offspring, raise the offsping and then train the offspring to fight reapers.
A cloning facility is more efficient.

Are the krogan at the risk of extinction?
No, not more then any other species at the moment, and prior to Reaper invasion they're fine as well as the salarians are micromanaging their population levels.

Will it unite the krogan?
Not at all, AND no having Wrex in charge will not help. All you're doing is taking all power away from Wrex as his policies revolve around clans sharing their females to maintain peace.
Make all the females fertile and Wrex is no longer necessary.

GodWood has the right idea here.

[wright1978]

Guessing the Krogans won't volunteer for fighting the reapers given the Genophage means it would decimate their numbers with little chance of them ever recovering. Yet if Shephard is able to offer them the promise of a cure he may be able to get a very strong frontline army for the fight. That may very well mean all he is just kicking the can down the road for someone else to fix the problem again if the Krogans rise up again but it might be worth it if it stops the reapers.

[AClockworkMelon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I wonder if anyone has thought about this:

If the krogan can (almost) maintain their population when only one in thousand females is fertile....what will happen if the genophage is gone? They'll multiply their population by 1000 in one krogan generation. OK, that may be 1000 years, but 1000 years isn't so long and it's still an incredibly dangerous development.

The only thing that will counter that is a cultural change that will make the krogan want fewer offspring, and/or reduced fertility. Cultural change doesn't come overnight. Another problem is that if the salarians, for instance, try to phase the genophage out over a longer period of time, the krogan will still resent it because they still haven't got their reproductive autonomy back. Add that Wrex' power depends on the current setup.

This looks like a problem with no easy solution. Curing the genophage now has all the potential to end in disaster. The Reaper threat is, of course, more important, but I'll try to find a way around a cure.

No, you don't understand how the genophage works. The rate at which it produces infertility varies. If the population dropped immensely all the krogan would become super fertile. If the population boomed they'd all find themselves unable to reproduce. The point of the genophage is both to keep their population from becoming too big AND too small. 

[Aaleel]

AClockworkMelon wrote...

No, you don't understand how the genophage works. The rate at which it produces infertility varies. If the population dropped immensely all the krogan would become super fertile. If the population boomed they'd all find themselves unable to reproduce. The point of the genophage is both to keep their population from becoming too big AND too small. 

This isn't right.  It's 1/1000 regardless of the population.  ALL Krogan females are fertile, all the genophage does is control how many pregnancies go full term and result in a live birth.  A lot of females have stillborns and other miscarry.  The genophage does not effect fertility.

If the reapers hit Tuchanka and left only a small number of Krogan it would still be 1/1000.  They would have no way to replenish. 

Modifié par Aaleel, 22 août 2011 - 07:12 .

[Ultai]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Yes, I'll cure it. But the krogans will be under heavy supervision (if that's possible).

Oh it's possible, it'll just turn out to be krogan rebellions part 2 and hope we can develop another damn genophage.

[Slayer299]

Aaleel wrote...
Men can't have kids, so what ill effects are they suffering?  The point was to stop female Krogan from carrying baby Krogan to term.  Like I said if the genophage made it harder for male Krogan and female Krogan to conceive in the first place then maybe.  But it does nothing to this effect, it allows the females to conceive children as normal it just doesn't allow them to carry them to term.  So who were the targets.

Men can't have kids, no, men alone can't have kids that is true, you need two people for that. Again, I say both, but females were the priority target. 
Also, you seem to believe that unless the male Krogans are suffering in pain somehow that they are not affected by the Genophage in anyway.

We aren't talking about a Minority Report-style of stopping future murders, it is about lowering the birthrates of Krogan females to a point the Krogan can't go on a killing spree on a galactic level anymore.

What is the difference.  The genophage has been going on for what a millenia?  999/1000 don't make it, you do the math, 999,000/1,000,000 don't make it, if you carry it out some decimals.  How many lives lost in the present for the sake of lives in the future? 

More than a few and I'm not losing any sleep over those deaths either. The Krogan have consistently shown themselves to be violent and dangerous and while I believe that does not cover all Krogan, the majority of which I've seen it does.
They have also shown no proliclivity prior to Wrex's reforms to changing in any way and even within Wrex's clan there was constant talk of paying the Turians/Salarians back and building bigger, better and more destructive weapons. That hardly inspires confidence in removing the Genophage when doing so has the very likelihood of the Krogan restarting their violent tendencies on non-Krogan across the galaxy.
So for every Krogan who dies in stillbirth that is another sentient who wasn't killed in a Krogan blood purge.

And Edit:  They didn't even make an accompaning cure.  If some unforseen circumstance had come along,  Krogan don't even have the means like other races to replenish their numbers, it would have been extinction while they waited around for a cure to be made on the back end. 

No, they didn't, but the Salarians weren't going to release the Genophage either. As for the extinction part, see above.

[ubermensch007]

"Do we really want to cure the genophage?"

HELL NO - and here's why... (If this hasn't been said already)

We know from the Codex entries, talking to the Shaman on the krogan homeworld and what we know oconcerning the krogan from what we hear from Dr.Mordin Solus.That prior to the Salarians uplifting their race.On Tuchanka; as powerful as the krogan are, natural predators and enviromental forces kept their numbers in check.When they were set free from the "Circle of Life" of their planet.Than their numbers grew astronomically.Only in the absence of the natural counter balance that they once had to contend with...

So the Price of the krogan being a space faring species is rightfully the Genophage, I say... In fact, I believe that Mother Nature herself was the guiding intellect behind the salarians and turians discovering how to create such a Bio-Weapon...

The krogan just like to boo whoo and whine and reminesce about their "Glory Days" But they brought the genophage upon themselves.And my reason for making sure that it is not repealed.is pretty much on account of what Wrex says to Commander Shepard on Tuchanka."We are what we are Shepard.And I won't change that."

I think its great that Wrex is trying to better the state of the krogan people, but the genophage is here to stay.For my part anyway...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 26 août 2011 - 09:41 .

[Dave of Canada]

No.

Wrex has a lot of enemies who want him dead, he can lead the Krogan to a brighter future but he can only do that by manipulating every clan by controlling the females. Cure the Krogan and you're doubt to see Wrex last long, he'll be thrown to the wolves and somebody else will lead a new Krogan rebellions against the galaxy for the genophage in the first place.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Saphra Deden wrote...

He doesn't want a cure because he doesn't need a cure.

Maelon's ruthlessness may have been part of what turned Wrex away, but if he really wanted a cure he'd have found common ground with him. Maelon was a one of a kind; an STG member who had already worked on a recent modification of the genophage. An ally like that isn't coming along again anytime soon.

Instead Wrex turned him away and when Shepard showed up he sent Shepard off to demolish his operation and likely kill him.

I repeat, the genophage is not what is killing the krogan. Wrex has known this ever since his father betrayed him. The krogan are killing the krogan with their bloodthirsty society.

A genophage cure given now will undo everything Wrex has built and eventually wind up with them being curb-stombed by the rest of the galaxy, again.

Wrex isn't stupid and he'd want to avoid this, so he wouldn't want a cure.

Pretty much this and I think this is part of the difference between Wrex and Wreav as I imagine that if he knew a cure was possible Wreav would take it and prove that he is just the same as Chief Weyrloc Guld (and that other idiotic Krogan who talked too much )

Do I always destroy the cure on my playthroughs, no... because I like to see the variables and I think as far as this part of the story is concerned I've got most of them covered and is one of the things I am interested to see how it plays out.

[Oopsieoops]

furryrage59 wrote...

I'll cure it without hesitation.

That's ghastly irresponsible.

[Alamar2078]

I think Mordin's right. We can't "cure" the genophage to restore the old birth rates as that is irresponsible.

IIRC in ME1 the genophage caused massive numbers of still births so that's uncool. If the genophage was modified into a sterility plauge where fertilization does not occur except at acceptable percentages then that would be fine.

[Bad King]

Kalak wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

But yeah, no, I don't think it's a good idea. They're a stubborn, belligerent, aggressive race that should still be stuck on that nuke-blasted hell-hole of a planet. The only way I could see it being a good idea is if Wrex's reforms fundamentally change krogan culture. But somehow I doubt it will.

...actually, you run across a fair amount of reasonable krogan, particularly in ME2.  Think about that krogan on Ilium representing Mr. Thax, or the two arguing on the Citadel about fish.  Or what about the lovesick, poetry-reciting krogan over by the gift shop?  

Sure, they're large, dangerous reptiles that are generally bad-tempered and very hard to kill, but at the same time, not every krogan is a vicious murderer or a neo-Darwinian sociopath, a la Kredak or Okeer.

Unfortunately though, it seems that most Krogan are aggressive and cruel. The harsh envirnoment of Tuchanka and their nuclear ecocide has caused them to evolve to be this way. It's genetic.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Aliens:_Non-Council_Races#Krogan:_Blood_Rage

Modifié par Bad King, 26 août 2011 - 07:05 .

[Bad King]

Twizz089 wrote...
Hes not willing to sell the soul of his race by conducting unethical experiments

To a species that has slaughtered entire populations of people through asteroid attacks on settled worlds in the past, a few unethical experiments are really not a big deal. It's more likely that Wrex refused Maelon's aid because he didn't trust him.

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Look what they did to their own
people in ME! One lot they had a husk infestation due to their
experiments and the head researcher when you corner her says Cerberus
won't rescue them and will leave them to die so you killing them is a
good thing.

I think you're confusing Cerberus with ExoGeni.

Modifié par Bad King, 26 août 2011 - 07:28 .

[TomN7]

The Genophage should be cured. I believe the krogan have suffered enough.

[AgitatedLemon]

Try not digging up 6-month old threads and necro'ing them. kthx.

[Labrev]

It's less a question of want but need now. To which the latter is answered with a yes.

Krogan are about the only species that will get the job done against the infinite Reapers ground troops. Obviously the cure won't give them numbers, but having it will encourage them to fight in full force rather than hold back to keep from endangering themselves into extinction. Only group I could see adequately replacing the krogan would be geth.

One of the key things I remember from Mordin's mission was him saying that the genophage was really needed because of the fragmentation of krogan clans, but that under a unified rule the krogan would be welcomed, saying that they saved the galaxy when unified. So I basically feel like the time is now. The question is whether or not they can stay united, but again, beggars can't be choosers here. And the council will need to share the responsibility in keeping the krogan in check too. If another krogan-rebellions break out again it's a fail on their part IMO.

But if Wreav is in charge (divided krogan race) then all bets are off.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 12 février 2012 - 04:41 .