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[Augustei]

"But when the chantry went to investigate they were turned away by the grey wardens" - Cassandra, Dragon Age Legacy. Loved hearing that, displaying Warden authority is in some cases greater than that of the chantry. It gets me thinking though back to Rylock from Dragon Age Awakening, the templar that refused to allow Anders conscription.

Do the wardens normally in most cases have authority that stops the chantry from interfearing in their affairs? If the Seekers wished to kill or imprison one of the wardens if they have commited some sort of crime is it within their rights or must they be allowed to do so by the First Warden / Warden Commander?

Rylock seems to have been overstepping her bounds in Awakening by not accepting Anders conscription. But when it comes to Wardens authority is it something only those high in the chantry hierarchy know about and understand and the lower ranking members of the chantry aren't really made aware of or refuse to understand.

And what about the Grey Wardens relationship with the chantry, I read something about the order declaring itself Andrastian after Emperor Drakon lifted the seige of weisshaupt during I think it was the second blight? But that seems more like forming a close relationship between Orlais and The Wardens / Orlais and the Anderfels. But what of The Chantry / Warden or more Specifically Templar / Warden Relationship like? Do they tend to distrust and not like each other having cold relations or is it pretty good?

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 22 août 2011 - 03:37 .

[Urzon]

While the Grey Wardens follow the Chantry, they are still two very different and seperate organinzations, and they can block one another from investigating what they think are their own personal matters.

And since the prison is technically property that belongs to the Grey Wardens, they can turn away anyone they think doesn't belong there. Chantry or not.

Modifié par Urzon, 22 août 2011 - 03:49 .

[T3H Fish]

From the sounds of it Grey Wardens are capable of holding a lot of authority. It's a well accepted rule or law that if a Grey Warden exercises the Right of Conscription, no matter who it is, no one can interfere no matter who they are. Knight Commander Gregoir also displays similar protest against the Warden Mage being Conscripted by Duncan. Also, whoever is the target of the Conscription cannot decline once it's been exercised.

The Treaties in Origins were an interesting thing, because they compelled aid from their designated factions, even though there isn't really any way to enforce it if the dwarves or elves had simply said no. The Grey Warden Order seems to hold a lot of power, but as to whatever relationship the Chantry and Grey Wardens share politically, I think in some cases the Grey Wardens override the Chantry, like if they have former apostates in their ranks or a Warden decides to Conscript a Templar.

[Urazz]

T3H Fish wrote...

From the sounds of it Grey Wardens are capable of holding a lot of authority. It's a well accepted rule or law that if a Grey Warden exercises the Right of Conscription, no matter who it is, no one can interfere no matter who they are. Knight Commander Gregoir also displays similar protest against the Warden Mage being Conscripted by Duncan. Also, whoever is the target of the Conscription cannot decline once it's been exercised.

The Treaties in Origins were an interesting thing, because they compelled aid from their designated factions, even though there isn't really any way to enforce it if the dwarves or elves had simply said no. The Grey Warden Order seems to hold a lot of power, but as to whatever relationship the Chantry and Grey Wardens share politically, I think in some cases the Grey Wardens override the Chantry, like if they have former apostates in their ranks or a Warden decides to Conscript a Templar.

I think the Grey Wardens only supercede the Chantry when it comes to anything darkspawn related or towards their own members.

[TEWR]

The Grey Wardens used to help spread the Andrastian religion, but eventually became neutral (my guess being around the time of the Third Blight where agreements between countries had to be made to face the Darkspawn)

There's also some curious things regarding the Wardens. Someone is moving against them and hired bandits to kill a messenger of the Wardens. That messenger was carrying Avernus' notes.

Who hired those bandits is unknown, but I'd like to venture a guess that it's either the Chantry or (and this is something I just now thought of) the Disciples. But I hope it's the Chantry, as that would make for something far more interesting than the Disciples.

[Anyroad2]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Wardens used to help spread the Andrastian religion, but eventually became neutral (my guess being around the time of the Third Blight where agreements between countries had to be made to face the Darkspawn)

There's also some curious things regarding the Wardens. Someone is moving against them and hired bandits to kill a messenger of the Wardens. That messenger was carrying Avernus' notes.

Who hired those bandits is unknown, but I'd like to venture a guess that it's either the Chantry or (and this is something I just now thought of) the Disciples. But I hope it's the Chantry, as that would make for something far more interesting than the Disciples.

Lets not forget the quest "Secret Rendezvous".
Someone in Kirkwall hiring raiders to target ships sailing Amaranthine colors. Very curious.

[Urzon]

Who hired those bandits is unknown, but I'd like to venture a guess that it's either the Chantry or (and this is something I just now thought of) the Disciples. But I hope it's the Chantry, as that would make for something far more interesting than the Disciples.

Ya, it is very annoying not knowing who hired those bandits. Other than Loghain, we really really don't know many people/groups/organizations that are against the Grey Wardens. They seem general well liked. Even more so since they stopped a Blight from reaching outside of Ferelden.

But if i had to put my money on it, i would have to think some group in the Chantry might be involved. I can see them not really liking the research of a powerful and semi-ancient blood mage. The Disciples would be easy to spot though. They do have that nasty habit of infecting people with the taint whenever they are in the general area.

Lets not forget the quest "Secret Rendezvous".
Someone in Kirkwall hiring raiders to target ships sailing Amaranthine colors. Very curious.

I'd have to pin that one on Orlais. Now that we know that their nobles are pushing for the reconquering of Ferelden, i can see them easily paying the raiders to sack their ships to disrupt trade. Not to mention in doing so, they will put a damper on Ferelden's rebuilding effort. I doubt many shipping captains would want to sail threw pirate infested waters.

Modifié par Urzon, 22 août 2011 - 04:30 .

[TEWR]

Urzon wrote...

Who hired those bandits is unknown, but I'd like to venture a guess that it's either the Chantry or (and this is something I just now thought of) the Disciples. But I hope it's the Chantry, as that would make for something far more interesting than the Disciples.

Ya, it is very annoying not knowing who hired those bandits. Other than Loghain, we really really don't know many people/groups/organizations that are against the Grey Wardens. They seem general well liked. Even more so since they stopped a Blight from reaching outside of Ferelden.

But if i had to put my money on it, i would have to think some group in the Chantry might be involved. I can see them not really liking the research of a powerful and semi-ancient blood mage. The Disciples would be easy to spot though. They do have that nasty habit of infecting people with the taint whenever they are in the general area.

Indeed. The Chantry is the only group I can think of that makes any real sense. The Wardens take in mages (apostates sometimes) and allow blood magic, which wouldn't go over well with the Chantry, especially given how hypocritical they are on various things.

Anyroad2 wrote...
Lets not forget the quest "Secret Rendezvous".
Someone in Kirkwall hiring raiders to target ships sailing Amaranthine colors. Very curious.

Ah yes I'd forgotten about that. Some of the Kirkwall nobility hiring raiders and condemned criminals to target Amaranthine ships. Perhaps they're in cahoots with the Chantry, or are doing their own thing.

I figure though that Secret Rendezvous was more about control of the Amaranthine Ocean, as IIRC it's been fought over by Amaranthine and Kirkwall for a long time so that one side would have a lot of trade going on. If so, it might not have much to do with the movements against the Wardens.

Though the Orlais thing also makes sense. Orlais conspiring with Kirkwall nobility against Ferelden would make for an interesting bit of political intrigue

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 août 2011 - 04:38 .

[T3H Fish]

Urazz wrote...

T3H Fish wrote...

From the sounds of it Grey Wardens are capable of holding a lot of authority. It's a well accepted rule or law that if a Grey Warden exercises the Right of Conscription, no matter who it is, no one can interfere no matter who they are. Knight Commander Gregoir also displays similar protest against the Warden Mage being Conscripted by Duncan. Also, whoever is the target of the Conscription cannot decline once it's been exercised.

The Treaties in Origins were an interesting thing, because they compelled aid from their designated factions, even though there isn't really any way to enforce it if the dwarves or elves had simply said no. The Grey Warden Order seems to hold a lot of power, but as to whatever relationship the Chantry and Grey Wardens share politically, I think in some cases the Grey Wardens override the Chantry, like if they have former apostates in their ranks or a Warden decides to Conscript a Templar.

I think the Grey Wardens only supercede the Chantry when it comes to anything darkspawn related or towards their own members.

That's why I said 'in some cases' They don't have the authority to interfere in Chantry business or the business of other countries unless it's directly related to Darkspawn. However, I find it odd it's mentioned that the First Warden seems to be deeply ingrained in the politics of the Anderfels and doesn't do much to actually guide the Order itself. They seem to suggest that the Grey Wardens and their local Commanders function as autonomous groups, though still at the heed and call of the First Warden.

[Neminea]

It kind of depends though since the wardens weren't allowed to come into Ferelden for a long time after the whole killing the king plot thing and somehow I think the chantry has more say in things than your average king. I think the chantry figures that they need the wardens for the blights too much to cross them.

[Augustei]

Anyroad2 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Wardens used to help spread the Andrastian religion, but eventually became neutral (my guess being around the time of the Third Blight where agreements between countries had to be made to face the Darkspawn)

There's also some curious things regarding the Wardens. Someone is moving against them and hired bandits to kill a messenger of the Wardens. That messenger was carrying Avernus' notes.

Who hired those bandits is unknown, but I'd like to venture a guess that it's either the Chantry or (and this is something I just now thought of) the Disciples. But I hope it's the Chantry, as that would make for something far more interesting than the Disciples.

Lets not forget the quest "Secret Rendezvous".
Someone in Kirkwall hiring raiders to target ships sailing Amaranthine colors. Very curious.

Nah with that situation I think its more a case of Kirkwall and its nobility attempting to put an end to the trade competition of the waking sea, since under the warden commander the arling prospered and became a power to rival kirkwall in trade. The wardens ownership isn't of direct involvment in the matter imo

EDIT: Sorry hadn't read ahead, didn't realise this had already been said =P

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 22 août 2011 - 08:20 .

[naledgeborn]

I think the Chantry just hates the Grey Wardens on principal. Where the Chantry would try to impose a monopoly on unchecked power the Grey Wardens will always be around as long as there are darkspawn. The order has treaties with every nation and faction of Thedas other than the Qunari who surprisingly respect them anyway. They also rule the Anderfels and now the Arling of Amaranthine. If any organized faction poses a threat to the Chantry's power it's the Wardens.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 22 août 2011 - 02:34 .

[jamesp81]

T3H Fish wrote...

From the sounds of it Grey Wardens are capable of holding a lot of authority. It's a well accepted rule or law that if a Grey Warden exercises the Right of Conscription, no matter who it is, no one can interfere no matter who they are. Knight Commander Gregoir also displays similar protest against the Warden Mage being Conscripted by Duncan. Also, whoever is the target of the Conscription cannot decline once it's been exercised.

The Treaties in Origins were an interesting thing, because they compelled aid from their designated factions, even though there isn't really any way to enforce it if the dwarves or elves had simply said no. The Grey Warden Order seems to hold a lot of power, but as to whatever relationship the Chantry and Grey Wardens share politically, I think in some cases the Grey Wardens override the Chantry, like if they have former apostates in their ranks or a Warden decides to Conscript a Templar.

The Right of Conscription is only an absolute authority so far as the authorities will tolerate it.  The importance of what the GWs do is acknowledged and, thus, the authorities will generally honor the treaties.  In return, the GWs know not to use too heavy of a hand.

The LAST time the GWs did use too heavy of a hand, the armies of Fereldan expelled them by force.  As good as the Wardens are, they are few in number and are specialized to fight darkspawn.  If one of the various nations of Thedas brings a proper army against them, they have no chance of defeating it.  Wardens exist to kill the Archdemon.  The taint may give them an advantage fighting darkspawn in general, but conventional armies can do that.  The GWs exist to kill Archdemons, and everything they do is geared towards that end.

[jamesp81]

naledgeborn wrote...

I think the Chantry just hates the Grey Wardens on principal. Where the Chantry would try to impose a monopoly on unchecked power the Grey Wardens will always be around as long as there are darkspawn. The order has treaties with every nation and faction of Thedas other than the Qunari who surprisingly respect them anyway. They also rule the Anderfels and now the Arling of Amaranthine. If any organized faction poses a threat to the Chantry's power it's the Wardens.

The Wardens pose no physical threat to the Chantry.  Wardens are few in number (the game seems to suggest in the few hundreds).  A single templar detachment at any one of the circles could challenge them in the open field.  The last time they got involved in a political dispute, Fereldan troops curbstomped them and threw them out of the country.

The Chantry and the Wardens seem to have a neutral / ally sort of relationship.  No one else can kill archdemons, and you know how much the Chantry dislikes demons.  So by and large, they're on the same side, even if a few templar feathers get ruffled now and then by the right of conscription.  The Chantry seems to view conscripted apostates as a case of "it's your problem now."

[Sepewrath]

Both the Grey Wardens and the Chantry are given amnesty by the rulers of each individual place and given total say over their own affairs, with no interference from any other power, unless its the kingdom taking away that amnesty, like the Wardens in Ferelden. So in both cases, they have power that is allowed to them and neither interferes with the other, outside of a few conscription's here and there.

[Augustei]

jamesp81 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I think the Chantry just hates the Grey Wardens on principal. Where the Chantry would try to impose a monopoly on unchecked power the Grey Wardens will always be around as long as there are darkspawn. The order has treaties with every nation and faction of Thedas other than the Qunari who surprisingly respect them anyway. They also rule the Anderfels and now the Arling of Amaranthine. If any organized faction poses a threat to the Chantry's power it's the Wardens.

The Wardens pose no physical threat to the Chantry.  Wardens are few in number (the game seems to suggest in the few hundreds).  A single templar detachment at any one of the circles could challenge them in the open field.  The last time they got involved in a political dispute, Fereldan troops curbstomped them and threw them out of the country.

The Chantry and the Wardens seem to have a neutral / ally sort of relationship.  No one else can kill archdemons, and you know how much the Chantry dislikes demons.  So by and large, they're on the same side, even if a few templar feathers get ruffled now and then by the right of conscription.  The Chantry seems to view conscripted apostates as a case of "it's your problem now."

Still the ferelden armies did struggle in that seige on Soldiers peak. The Wardens held out a long time. Wardens are also elite warriors so for every warden lost they could probably take 10 soldiers with them since the wardens recruit the best.

I guess it comes down to if anyone would support the chantry in a war with the wardens if one ever happened. I mean if not aren't the templars numbers not that great either? there isnt that many of them and none of them are as well trained as wardens. Plus the wardens have weisshaupt fortress which is said to be impregnable. And they control the Anderfels and would have the support and respect of Ferelden because of the recent blight.

Idk.. I think the wardens could give the chantry a run for their money

[Dave of Canada]

T3H Fish wrote...

From the sounds of it Grey Wardens are capable of holding a lot of authority. It's a well accepted rule or law that if a Grey Warden exercises the Right of Conscription, no matter who it is, no one can interfere no matter who they are. 

If I was a Grey Warden, I'd march into every throne room and conscript every King / Queen / Prince / Princess. Let the nobles sort out the mess! *evil laugh*

[Gervaise]

The original rule was that Grey Wardens should not involve themselves in politics. Alistairs admits in DA2 if you meet him as a warden that he got into a fair bit of trouble over what happened in Ferelden, which is why he won't help Hawke with the Qunari as that is a purely political battle. So long as the wardens stick to this and their main remit of killing darkspawn, then the Chantry will generally ignore the odd mage conscript (which in Origins is acknowledged as being quite rare). Since Grey Wardens have only a limited lifespan, they at least know the problem will eventually resolve itself. If the Grey Wardens were to take sides in the coming war, then they would have problems. However, we are told that the Anderfels is a very devout nation with a huge statue of Andraste carved into rock, so it would be highly unlikely that the Grey Warden leadership would turn against the Chantry.

[Augustei]

Dave of Canada wrote...

T3H Fish wrote...

From the sounds of it Grey Wardens are capable of holding a lot of authority. It's a well accepted rule or law that if a Grey Warden exercises the Right of Conscription, no matter who it is, no one can interfere no matter who they are. 

If I was a Grey Warden, I'd march into every throne room and conscript every King / Queen / Prince / Princess. Let the nobles sort out the mess! *evil laugh*

"Do the words political ****storm mean anything to you?" Lol would be interesting to see peoples reaction to it =D Wonder how far the wardens have pushed their conscription limits before? maybe an Archon in the first blight?

[Conduit0]

jamesp81 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I think the Chantry just hates the Grey Wardens on principal. Where the Chantry would try to impose a monopoly on unchecked power the Grey Wardens will always be around as long as there are darkspawn. The order has treaties with every nation and faction of Thedas other than the Qunari who surprisingly respect them anyway. They also rule the Anderfels and now the Arling of Amaranthine. If any organized faction poses a threat to the Chantry's power it's the Wardens.

The Wardens pose no physical threat to the Chantry.  Wardens are few in number (the game seems to suggest in the few hundreds).  A single templar detachment at any one of the circles could challenge them in the open field.  The last time they got involved in a political dispute, Fereldan troops curbstomped them and threw them out of the country.

The Chantry and the Wardens seem to have a neutral / ally sort of relationship.  No one else can kill archdemons, and you know how much the Chantry dislikes demons.  So by and large, they're on the same side, even if a few templar feathers get ruffled now and then by the right of conscription.  The Chantry seems to view conscripted apostates as a case of "it's your problem now."

Its more than a few hundred Thedas wide, but probably around a hundred or so per nation that hosts Warden ouposts and probably a few hundred at Weisshaupt itsself. Ofcourse their realitively small numbers does not mean they aren't a potential threat as a standing army. During the failed coup the Fereldan troops did not "curbstomp" the Wardens, a mere one hundred Wardens very nearly defeated the entire Fereldan army and it was only the loss of Sophia that finally broke them and allowed the Fereldan army to claim victory. Also the Wardens hold considerable political power, especially now right after a blight, right now if a nation had to choose between the Wardens and the Chantry, they'd pick the Wardens.

[Joulurotta]

Chantry just hate everyone and everything that dosent respect their nonexistent authority while they think they are better than rest... well it is a church, mainly they think everyone is beneath them.

[jamesp81]

Conduit0 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I think the Chantry just hates the Grey Wardens on principal. Where the Chantry would try to impose a monopoly on unchecked power the Grey Wardens will always be around as long as there are darkspawn. The order has treaties with every nation and faction of Thedas other than the Qunari who surprisingly respect them anyway. They also rule the Anderfels and now the Arling of Amaranthine. If any organized faction poses a threat to the Chantry's power it's the Wardens.

The Wardens pose no physical threat to the Chantry.  Wardens are few in number (the game seems to suggest in the few hundreds).  A single templar detachment at any one of the circles could challenge them in the open field.  The last time they got involved in a political dispute, Fereldan troops curbstomped them and threw them out of the country.

The Chantry and the Wardens seem to have a neutral / ally sort of relationship.  No one else can kill archdemons, and you know how much the Chantry dislikes demons.  So by and large, they're on the same side, even if a few templar feathers get ruffled now and then by the right of conscription.  The Chantry seems to view conscripted apostates as a case of "it's your problem now."

Its more than a few hundred Thedas wide, but probably around a hundred or so per nation that hosts Warden ouposts and probably a few hundred at Weisshaupt itsself. Ofcourse their realitively small numbers does not mean they aren't a potential threat as a standing army. During the failed coup the Fereldan troops did not "curbstomp" the Wardens, a mere one hundred Wardens very nearly defeated the entire Fereldan army and it was only the loss of Sophia that finally broke them and allowed the Fereldan army to claim victory. Also the Wardens hold considerable political power, especially now right after a blight, right now if a nation had to choose between the Wardens and the Chantry, they'd pick the Wardens.

The Wardens never came close to defeating Fereldan's armies at Warden's Keep.  That's the point.  The Grey Wardens were completely contained inside a fortress from which they could not escape.  They were no longer a threat to anything outside those walls.  Taking a fortress by force is always costly for the attacker, no matter how much he outnumbers the defender.  You can't really say that the wardens were each worth ten regular soldiers under those circumstances.  A dug in force in a fortress is always going to exact a favorable kill/loss ratio.  If the Wardens were so strong, they'd not have needed to fight from a fortification; they'd have merely met their enemy in the open field.  They didn't do so because they clearly lacked the strength to make it happen.

The Wardens are like a small group of special forces soldiers.  Individually very good, but too few in number to constitute an army on their own.

[Augustei]

The wardens pretty much control the anderfels however so the numbers they have on their side aren't quite so small, plus they'd have the support of Ferelden since they just helped them with a blight and it possibly has a warden on the throne

[jamesp81]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The wardens pretty much control the anderfels however so the numbers they have on their side aren't quite so small, plus they'd have the support of Ferelden since they just helped them with a blight and it possibly has a warden on the throne

The Wardens control the Anderfels because the people there prefer for the Wardens to lead rather than the king of the Anderfels, and the Anderfel king is too weak politically to do anything about it.  The Wardens do not have the raw military power to hold the country against its will by main force.

Their numbers are too small.  They are not an army.  If they were, they wouldn't go about gathering armies every time a blight started.  I doubt there is a single nation in Thedas that all the Grey Wardens together could conquer by force, except maybe the Anderfels themselves since they already hold a lot of political authority there.

BTW, the Wiki says Weisshaupt fortress has over a thousand wardens.  That's not an impressive number considering it's their single largest detachment housed in their HQ.  That number of Wardens couldn't hope to conquer the Anderfels if the citizens of the Anderfels didn't want them to rule.  The country is simply too big for that small of a force.  I'd not be surprised if even one or two of Fereldan's arlings could field a larger army than the one at Weisshaupt.  I'd be willing to bet that the combined armies of Redcliffe and Denerim would heavily outnumber the entire order of the Grey Wardens.

If the Wardens came to blows with the Chantry, Fereldan would wisely sit it out.  The Chantry is well respected in Fereldan despite it being an Orlesian institution.  The Wardens, however, have an unfortunate history of meddling in Fereldan's affairs, something that Fereldan made the Wardens pay dearly for.  That might've been a long time ago, but I doubt anyone has exactly forgotten it either.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Grey Warden/Chantry relation is curious. They Grey Wardens once helped spread the Chantry religion (perhaps back then they saw it as something that was useful, as well as doing Emporer Drakon a favor by spreading his religion for him).

Yet they are known to not only harbor and recruit blood mages and other practitioners of the absolutely forbodden, but are even encouraged to explore them to the fullest, and hone their forbidden magic to become powerful. And i can't necessarily say the Chantry fully condones these practices, since Gregoire attacks a Warden who is outed as a Blood Mage. Yet some knowledge and tolerance by the Chantry is implied in other areas. And then there is also the preperation of the Joining ritual, which appears to take place under the watch and full knowledge of the templars, yet involves something that is most likely blood magic, and a darker form too.