83 réponses à ce sujet

[Sepewrath]

I cant believe the state tells the Chantry to stay out of the Warden's business, the Warden's deal with the messes that no one else wants to. I'm sure the individual governments, want to keep them happy, so they cant have the Chantry harassing them.

[dragonflight288]

I cant believe the state tells the Chantry to stay out of the Warden's
business, the Warden's deal with the messes that no one else wants to.
I'm sure the individual governments, want to keep them happy, so they
cant have the Chantry harassing them.

Oh, but the Warden may have apostates and blood mages in their ranks. And that is an affront to the Maker worthy of death.

[Conduit0]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I cant believe the state tells the Chantry to stay out of the Warden's
business, the Warden's deal with the messes that no one else wants to.
I'm sure the individual governments, want to keep them happy, so they
cant have the Chantry harassing them.

Oh, but the Warden may have apostates and blood mages in their ranks. And that is an affront to the Maker worthy of death.

Pfft, having mages in their ranks would just be an excuse, if the Chantry hates the Wardens its simply because the Wardens are a group of people who the Chantry has no control over and has nearly as much political weight. But as long as the threat of blights exists, the Chantry can't touch the Wardens and that probably irks them to no end.

[maxernst]

Why do people assume the Chantry hates the Wardens? That one incident in DA:A over Anders is the only time that I can recall any member of the chantry being openly hostile to the Wardens. Throughout DA:O the attitudes of the revered mothers and Templars toward your Warden range from neutral to helpful. If the chantry hated Wardens, why aren't the Templars helping Loghain track you down and kill you?

They may resent the right of conscription (as do the nobles and other powers in Thedas) and they don't like the fact that Warden mages lie outside their jurisdiction, but there's no evidence that the Chantry actively opposes the Wardens in any way. In Ferelden, at least, there's a lot more evidence for nobles hating the Wardens than the Chantry.

Modifié par maxernst, 24 août 2011 - 01:28 .

[jamesp81]

maxernst wrote...

Why do people assume the Chantry hates the Wardens? That one incident in DA:A over Anders is the only time that I can recall any member of the chantry being openly hostile to the Wardens. Throughout DA:O the attitudes of the revered mothers and Templars toward your Warden range from neutral to helpful. If the chantry hated Wardens, why aren't the Templars helping Loghain track you down and kill you?

They may resent the right of conscription (as do the nobles and other powers in Thedas) and they don't like the fact that Warden mages lie outside their jurisdiction, but there's no evidence that the Chantry actively opposes the Wardens in any way. In Ferelden, at least, there's a lot more evidence for nobles hating the Wardens than the Chantry.

Pretty much this.

It's also a matter of survival.  The Wardens are too few in number to pose a credible threat to the Chantry.  The Chantry probably knows well enough why it has to be a Warden that kills the archdemon.  Neither gains anything by antagonizing the other, and the Wardens are a fairly faithful bunch on the whole anyway.

As for recruiting maleficarum, I think there's an element of "your problem now" on the Chantry's part with regards to that.

In fact, I suspect the Chantry probably gets more torqued about conscription of templars than of mages, maleficarum or not.  They've always liked to hold the secrets to being a templar close, so letting one go is not something they'd prefer to do.

[TEWR]

jamesp81 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Why do people assume the Chantry hates the Wardens? That one incident in DA:A over Anders is the only time that I can recall any member of the chantry being openly hostile to the Wardens. Throughout DA:O the attitudes of the revered mothers and Templars toward your Warden range from neutral to helpful. If the chantry hated Wardens, why aren't the Templars helping Loghain track you down and kill you?

They may resent the right of conscription (as do the nobles and other powers in Thedas) and they don't like the fact that Warden mages lie outside their jurisdiction, but there's no evidence that the Chantry actively opposes the Wardens in any way. In Ferelden, at least, there's a lot more evidence for nobles hating the Wardens than the Chantry.

Pretty much this.

It's also a matter of survival.  The Wardens are too few in number to pose a credible threat to the Chantry.  The Chantry probably knows well enough why it has to be a Warden that kills the archdemon.  Neither gains anything by antagonizing the other, and the Wardens are a fairly faithful bunch on the whole anyway.

As for recruiting maleficarum, I think there's an element of "your problem now" on the Chantry's part with regards to that.

In fact, I suspect the Chantry probably gets more torqued about conscription of templars than of mages, maleficarum or not.  They've always liked to hold the secrets to being a templar close, so letting one go is not something they'd prefer to do.

Rylock was acting on Chantry jurisdiction, as the Chantry kept sending more and more Templars to try and take Anders away. They only stopped when the Wardens accepted a Templar into their ranks to watch Anders.



I can see them now. It's Rolan; of course it is. The price I had to pay for the Grey Wardens' generosity in recruiting me out from under the templars' noses. He was one of them, before his Chantry was destroyed by the darkspawn and he felt the calling to join the Wardens. No one ever said a deal had been struck, but as soon as the templars stopped their protests, Rolan turned up in the Wardens, and we've fielded every assignment together since. It's all too clear the templars sent him to keep watch.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 août 2011 - 05:14 .

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Why do people assume the Chantry hates the Wardens? That one incident in DA:A over Anders is the only time that I can recall any member of the chantry being openly hostile to the Wardens. Throughout DA:O the attitudes of the revered mothers and Templars toward your Warden range from neutral to helpful. If the chantry hated Wardens, why aren't the Templars helping Loghain track you down and kill you?

They may resent the right of conscription (as do the nobles and other powers in Thedas) and they don't like the fact that Warden mages lie outside their jurisdiction, but there's no evidence that the Chantry actively opposes the Wardens in any way. In Ferelden, at least, there's a lot more evidence for nobles hating the Wardens than the Chantry.

Pretty much this.

It's also a matter of survival.  The Wardens are too few in number to pose a credible threat to the Chantry.  The Chantry probably knows well enough why it has to be a Warden that kills the archdemon.  Neither gains anything by antagonizing the other, and the Wardens are a fairly faithful bunch on the whole anyway.

As for recruiting maleficarum, I think there's an element of "your problem now" on the Chantry's part with regards to that.

In fact, I suspect the Chantry probably gets more torqued about conscription of templars than of mages, maleficarum or not.  They've always liked to hold the secrets to being a templar close, so letting one go is not something they'd prefer to do.

Rylock was acting on Chantry jurisdiction, as the Chantry kept sending more and more Templars to try and take Anders away. They only stopped when the Wardens accepted a Templar into their ranks to watch Anders.



I can see them now. It's Rolan; of course it is. The price I had to pay for the Grey Wardens' generosity in recruiting me out from under the templars' noses. He was one of them, before his Chantry was destroyed by the darkspawn and he felt the calling to join the Wardens. No one ever said a deal had been struck, but as soon as the templars stopped their protests, Rolan turned up in the Wardens, and we've fielded every assignment together since. It's all too clear the templars sent him to keep watch.

I would assume that's because they were convinced that Anders killed those templars at the vigil.  Under any other circumstances, this sort of action on their part seems unlikely.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Wardens have been recruiting mages for centuries, the Chantry may not like it but they've tolerated it for their entire existence. There have been treaties with the Grey Wardens for longer than there has been a Chantry.

[TEWR]

jamesp81 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Why do people assume the Chantry hates the Wardens? That one incident in DA:A over Anders is the only time that I can recall any member of the chantry being openly hostile to the Wardens. Throughout DA:O the attitudes of the revered mothers and Templars toward your Warden range from neutral to helpful. If the chantry hated Wardens, why aren't the Templars helping Loghain track you down and kill you?

They may resent the right of conscription (as do the nobles and other powers in Thedas) and they don't like the fact that Warden mages lie outside their jurisdiction, but there's no evidence that the Chantry actively opposes the Wardens in any way. In Ferelden, at least, there's a lot more evidence for nobles hating the Wardens than the Chantry.

Pretty much this.

It's also a matter of survival.  The Wardens are too few in number to pose a credible threat to the Chantry.  The Chantry probably knows well enough why it has to be a Warden that kills the archdemon.  Neither gains anything by antagonizing the other, and the Wardens are a fairly faithful bunch on the whole anyway.

As for recruiting maleficarum, I think there's an element of "your problem now" on the Chantry's part with regards to that.

In fact, I suspect the Chantry probably gets more torqued about conscription of templars than of mages, maleficarum or not.  They've always liked to hold the secrets to being a templar close, so letting one go is not something they'd prefer to do.

Rylock was acting on Chantry jurisdiction, as the Chantry kept sending more and more Templars to try and take Anders away. They only stopped when the Wardens accepted a Templar into their ranks to watch Anders.



I can see them now. It's Rolan; of course it is. The price I had to pay for the Grey Wardens' generosity in recruiting me out from under the templars' noses. He was one of them, before his Chantry was destroyed by the darkspawn and he felt the calling to join the Wardens. No one ever said a deal had been struck, but as soon as the templars stopped their protests, Rolan turned up in the Wardens, and we've fielded every assignment together since. It's all too clear the templars sent him to keep watch.

I would assume that's because they were convinced that Anders killed those templars at the vigil.  Under any other circumstances, this sort of action on their part seems unlikely.

Even so, the Wardens have made it clear that they take in murderers. They take in people from all walks of life, so long as they fight the Darkspawn. Hell there were Darkspawn all around the Vigil, and Rylock immediately blamed Anders. Sure those Darkspawn were just for decoration! They couldn't possibly have killed anyone! The Withered was just saying hi to that soldier when he accidentally kicked him off the castle!

Anders was more than likely innocent. And the Templars have both no proof he did it, nor the authority to move against the Wardens for taking Anders in when the Wardens make it clear they take in murderers, as I said above.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Wardens have been recruiting mages for centuries, the Chantry may not like it but they've tolerated it for their entire existence. There have been treaties with the Grey Wardens for longer than there has been a Chantry.

They may have tolerated it in the past, but things change. Things always change. The Chantry is unhappy that the Wardens accepted Anders.

[dragonflight288]

There was that templar who wouldn't do anything in front of the ruler of
Ferelden, but the moment the crown was out of sight, resumed their
Ander's hunt irregardless of the Warden's sovereignty and power of
conscription. Saying "The Chantry supersedes the crown."

In other words, her authority as a templar is greater than King Alistair's orders in her own opinion.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 24 août 2011 - 05:56 .

[jamesp81]

dragonflight288 wrote...

There was that templar who wouldn't do anything in front of the ruler of Ferelden, but the moment the crown was out of sight, resumed their Ander's hunt irregardless of the Warden's sovereignty and power of conscription. Saying "The Chantry supersedes the crown."

In other words, her authority as a templar is greater than King Alistair's orders in her own opinion.

That's technically true.  Civil authorities technically don't have any authority in templar business.

What complicates the situation is that Ferelden was just recently liberated from Orlesian occupation, and the Chantry is an Orlesian institution.  While the templars themselves in Ferelden are composed of Ferelden soldiers, the matter is complicated by past history.  I'd guess the Ferelden Chantry probably tries not to step on too many toes.  The Fereldens expelled the Wardens by force once, no reason they couldn't do it to the templars either given enough provocation.

The templars hunting Anders seemed to be of the fanatical variety.  I'd suspect incidents like this occur on occasion depending on the players involved.

Modifié par jamesp81, 24 août 2011 - 05:59 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

There was that templar who wouldn't do anything in front of the ruler of Ferelden, but the moment the crown was out of sight, resumed their Ander's hunt irregardless of the Warden's sovereignty and power of conscription. Saying "The Chantry supersedes the crown."

In other words, her authority as a templar is greater than King Alistair's orders in her own opinion.

That's what I said too. And itt didn't stop with Rylock. Anders notes that the Templars stopped trying to get him out of the Wardens when Rolan the Templar was made a Warden. The Chantry thinks they have more authority than the Wardens in terms of who is made a Warden.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Wardens have been recruiting mages for centuries, the Chantry may not like it but they've tolerated it for their entire existence. There have been treaties with the Grey Wardens for longer than there has been a Chantry.

They may have tolerated it in the past, but things change. Things always change. The Chantry is unhappy that the Wardens accepted Anders.

Things don't change unless there is a reason. This can't be the first time this happened in a thousand years. Besides, Anders abandoned the Wardens anyway.

[dragonflight288]

Which is stupid. The Wardens are a military organization that doesn't answer to the Chantry. Thorin Aeducan certainly doesn't.

[TEWR]

jamesp81 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

There was that templar who wouldn't do anything in front of the ruler of Ferelden, but the moment the crown was out of sight, resumed their Ander's hunt irregardless of the Warden's sovereignty and power of conscription. Saying "The Chantry supersedes the crown."

In other words, her authority as a templar is greater than King Alistair's orders in her own opinion.

That's technically true.  Civil authorities technically don't have any authority in templar business.

One complicating factor there is that Ferelden was just recently liberated from Orlesian occupation, and the Chantry is an Orlesian institution.  While the templars themselves in Ferelden are composed of Ferelden soldiers, the matter is complicated by past history.  I'd guess the Ferelden Chantry probably tries not to step on too many toes.  The Fereldens expelled the Wardens by force once, no reason they couldn't do it to the templars either given enough provocation.

The templars hunting Anders seemed to be of the fanatical variety.  I'd suspect incidents like this occur on occasion depending on the players involved.

This is hardly a bunch of fanatics. The Chantry had to have known about this and had to have authorized it. There's no way their incompetency goes so far as to not know about it. If it was just Rylock it could rightly be called a bunch of fanatics overstepping their authority. But these aren't fanatics. This is Chantry authorized.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Wardens have been recruiting mages for centuries, the Chantry may not like it but they've tolerated it for their entire existence. There have been treaties with the Grey Wardens for longer than there has been a Chantry.

They may have tolerated it in the past, but things change. Things always change. The Chantry is unhappy that the Wardens accepted Anders.

Things don't change unless there is a reason. This can't be the first time this happened in a thousand years. Besides, Anders abandoned the Wardens anyway.

For the Chantry, it's probably enough of a reason.

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

There
was that templar who wouldn't do anything in front of the ruler of
Ferelden, but the moment the crown was out of sight, resumed their
Ander's hunt irregardless of the Warden's sovereignty and power of
conscription. Saying "The Chantry supersedes the crown."

In other words, her authority as a templar is greater than King Alistair's orders in her own opinion.

That's technically true.  Civil authorities technically don't have any authority in templar business.

One
complicating factor there is that Ferelden was just recently liberated
from Orlesian occupation, and the Chantry is an Orlesian institution. 
While the templars themselves in Ferelden are composed of Ferelden
soldiers, the matter is complicated by past history.  I'd guess the
Ferelden Chantry probably tries not to step on too many toes.  The
Fereldens expelled the Wardens by force once, no reason they couldn't do
it to the templars either given enough provocation.

The templars
hunting Anders seemed to be of the fanatical variety.  I'd suspect
incidents like this occur on occasion depending on the players involved.

This
is hardly a bunch of fanatics. The Chantry had to have known about this
and had to have authorized it. There's no way their incompetency goes
so far as to not know about it. If it was just Rylock it could rightly
be called a bunch of fanatics overstepping their authority. But these
aren't fanatics. This is Chantry authorized.

The Wardens are a transnational military organization whose relations are governed by treaties with other powers.  As far as I'm aware, the Wardens don't have a treaty with the Chantry, so there is NO legal framework for their interactions.

So maybe it was Chantry authorized.  I still think it wasn't, but so what if it was?  The Chantry chases apostates, and generally lets the Wardens have apostates if they want.  It isn't written anywhere that the Chantry has to acceed to that custom in every case, especially in the absence of a treaty.

Modifié par jamesp81, 24 août 2011 - 06:04 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

There was that templar who wouldn't do anything in front of the ruler of
Ferelden, but the moment the crown was out of sight, resumed their
Ander's hunt irregardless of the Warden's sovereignty and power of
conscription. Saying "The Chantry supersedes the crown."

In other words, her authority as a templar is greater than King Alistair's orders in her own opinion.

That's technically true.  Civil authorities technically don't have any authority in templar business.

One complicating factor there is that Ferelden was just recently liberated
from Orlesian occupation, and the Chantry is an Orlesian institution. 
While the templars themselves in Ferelden are composed of Ferelden
soldiers, the matter is complicated by past history.  I'd guess the
Ferelden Chantry probably tries not to step on too many toes.  The
Fereldens expelled the Wardens by force once, no reason they couldn't do
it to the templars either given enough provocation.

The templars hunting Anders seemed to be of the fanatical variety.  I'd suspect incidents like this occur on occasion depending on the players involved.

This is hardly a bunch of fanatics. The Chantry had to have known about this and had to have authorized it. There's no way their incompetency goes so far as to not know about it. If it was just Rylock it could rightly be called a bunch of fanatics overstepping their authority. But these aren't fanatics. This is Chantry authorized.

No the Chantry didn't need to have authorized it. I never got the impression they did while I was playing Awakening. If Rylock wanted to set a trap for Anders it would have been easy to do so by herself. People act like the Chantry and templars are all of one mind everywhere in the world.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 août 2011 - 06:04 .

[Wulfram]

I don't think the Anders story is fully canon. In some cases, it's obviously wrong - if Anders "died" at Vigils keep, for example. And if that was the circumstances of his departure from the wardens, his interaction with Stroud and Nathaniel seems very wrong.

Plus the whole "my warden would never have agreed to that" thing.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 août 2011 - 06:08 .

[dragonflight288]

The Wardens are a transnational military organization whose relations are governed by treaties with other powers. As far as I'm aware, the Wardens don't have a treaty with the Chantry, so there is NO legal framework for their interactions.

So maybe it was Chantry authorized. I still think it wasn't, but so what if it was? The Chantry chases apostates, and generally lets the Wardens have apostates if they want. It isn't written anywhere that the Chantry has to acceed to that custom in every case, especially in the absence of a treaty.

Whose to say there isn't a treaty? I'm not personally aware of one, but neither am I aware of a lack of one. Besides, I think the Wardens would have to be stupid to overlook the Chantries military prowess throughout history when it comes to fighting the blights. Alistair was training to be a templar, and had to be conscripted because the Grand Cleric didn't want him giving up Chantry secrets.

He even thought the Grand Cleric would have both him and Duncan arrested for the conscription, whereas the full-fledged templars with a lyrium addiction who fought in that same tournament had were expected to be accepted.

Seems to me like the Chantry is actually trying to gain control of the Wardens through the lyrium addicted members, treaty existing or not.

[Sylvianus]

Warden may have apostates ( for chantry ) or free mages ( for wardens ). And that is an affront to the Maker according to them. YES.

The Chantry do not trust the Wardens in my opinion, also because the Wardens are a group of people who the Chantry has no control over and has nearly as much political weight, yes.

But as long as the threat of blights exists, the Chantry can't touch the Wardens and do not want. Yes. Morever, the Wardens promised neutrality, whatever could be the crimes of the chantry against mages, they can't be considered as threat with their oath.

The conflicts between humans, the warden are not interested, they are focused on their mission. Therefore basically the chantry isn't interested too in the wardens except when their templars are recruited at their temple or mages in the circles. They are unwell, seeing their authority scorned, but no more.

That said yes they don't trust them but in the same time, they know very well that they are important for the safety of their world. But also, the legend that surrounds this group and their mission serves their propaganda about darkspawn, the creator betrayed and mages at the origin of blights according to them.An other reason not to hate them.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 août 2011 - 06:16 .

[dragonflight288]

Let's not forget that after the fourth blight, nearly everyone on the surface who weren't wardens honestly thought the threat of the blights were long over because the darkspawn were extinct.

And even Cailan and Loghain doubted it was a true blight at Ostagar. It's not like the Wardens can go to leaders of armies and say "I just had a dream that the darkspawn are about to attack. We need to go fight them."

[Sylvianus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Let's not forget that after the fourth blight, nearly everyone on the surface who weren't wardens honestly thought the threat of the blights were long over because the darkspawn were extinct.

And even Cailan and Loghain doubted it was a true blight at Ostagar. It's not like the Wardens can go to leaders of armies and say "I just had a dream that the darkspawn are about to attack. We need to go fight them."

Their influence  in Ferelden didnn't reflect that of other countries. Countries that were ravaged by blight several times, remember despite the years, and the influence of Wardens is still great in those countries. Especially after the fifth blight. Their influence in Orlais seems pretty much important, at the side of the empress Celene too.

Ferelden has exiled the wardens since a long time ago, and that's the only country known which didn't like the wardens and considered them as a threat. Also the opinion of Loghain wasn't really rational... He was really paranoid, seeing ennemies everywhere, especially because the wardens at ostagar were mostly Orlesians.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 août 2011 - 06:39 .

[Wulfram]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's not like the Wardens can go to leaders of armies and say "I just had a dream that the darkspawn are about to attack. We need to go fight them."

They could if they had the sense to explain why their dreams are relevant.