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[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's not like the Wardens can go to leaders of armies and say "I just had a dream that the darkspawn are about to attack. We need to go fight them."

They could if they had the sense to explain why their dreams are relevant.

That'll definitely go over well!

King: So... why do we need to listen to you?
Warden: Well, you see we do this blood magic ritual where we drink Darkspawn blood and some other stuff. That allows us to sense the Darkspawn and our dreams also allow us to know when a Blight is happening.
King: Blood magic?!
Warden: **** me.......

Granted, they wouldn't need to go into specifics on the Warden ritual. But even Duncan said he could feel the Archdemon and everyone was just like "Uh huh, sure."

[Sylvianus]

Everyone was just uh huh, but when an army eventually contaminate the land, destroy everything, there is a moment they will believe them. So it really does not matter if the facts of a new threat are there. Blight or not.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 août 2011 - 06:45 .

[dragonflight288]

Tell that to the banns and arls who thought it more important to kill each other than fight the darkspawn ravaging Ferelden in Origins.

They pretty much were going "Yeah, blight...uh huh. I don't see it right now so it's not such a big deal."

[Sylvianus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Tell that to the banns and arls who thought it more important to kill each other than fight the darkspawn ravaging Ferelden in Origins.

They pretty much were going "Yeah, blight...uh huh. I don't see it right now so it's not such a big deal."

It has never been claimed that the role of wardens was easy. Even with a huge influence in this country after the betrayal of Loghain, it would have been difficult to convince the banns in Ferelden to unite.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 août 2011 - 06:49 .

[dragonflight288]

I know. My point is that you aren't going to find power-hungry nobles willing to sacrifice their soldiers for a greater cause unless they are directly threatened at that very moment, or you can come up with good reasons why it should concern them.

Duncan was telling everyone that it was a blight. Cailan wanted glory but still ordered the Banns to organize an army. They were doing it, but none of them believed Duncan about a blight. It was all "Uh huh. Sure."

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That'll definitely go over well!

King: So... why do we need to listen to you?
Warden: Well, you see we do this blood magic ritual where we drink Darkspawn blood and some other stuff. That allows us to sense the Darkspawn and our dreams also allow us to know when a Blight is happening.
King: Blood magic?!
Warden: **** me.......

It's not necessarily blood magic.

Warden:"We drink Darkspawn blood, it lets us detect them and know when there's a blight"
King:"Oh, OK.  Glorious!"
(It's Cailan, after all)

Granted, they wouldn't need to go into specifics on the Warden ritual. But even Duncan said he could feel the Archdemon and everyone was just like "Uh huh, sure."

Because he refused to tell them anything which might make them think he wasn't just guessing.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 août 2011 - 06:56 .

[TEWR]

The Dwarves were even worse. They argued about whose Thaig was more important and which one should be saved, and as a result lost a lot of their kingdom to the Darkspawn. It was only under Paragon Aeducan that the army, smiths, and miners were able to hold the Darkspawn line.

Politics... never did anyone any good. --- Brother Genitivi

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That'll definitely go over well!

King: So... why do we need to listen to you?
Warden: Well, you see we do this blood magic ritual where we drink Darkspawn blood and some other stuff. That allows us to sense the Darkspawn and our dreams also allow us to know when a Blight is happening.
King: Blood magic?!
Warden: **** me.......

It's not necessarily blood magic.

Warden:"We drink Darkspawn blood, it lets us detect them and know when there's a blight"
King:"Oh, OK.  Glorious!"
(It's Cailan, after all)

Granted, they wouldn't need to go into specifics on the Warden ritual. But even Duncan said he could feel the Archdemon and everyone was just like "Uh huh, sure."

Because he refused to tell them anything which might make them think he wasn't just guessing.

The Warden Joining is blood magic. It functions the same way as the Reaver Joining ritual (and both are ritualized forms of drinking blood), which was declared to definitely be a form of blood magic.

[Sylvianus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I know. My point is that you aren't going to find power-hungry nobles willing to sacrifice their soldiers for a greater cause unless they are directly threatened at that very moment, or you can come up with good reasons why it should concern them.

Duncan was telling everyone that it was a blight. Cailan wanted glory but still ordered the Banns to organize an army. They were doing it, but none of them believed Duncan about a blight. It was all "Uh huh. Sure."

Indeed, we are agree. But also, like I said, it depends. The countries which were ravaged, destroyed several time are less reluctant to immediately follow the Wardens. I think Tevinter, Orlais, Rivain, Antiva, the Anderfels.  It's like the countries that suffer piracy in real life. There are those who are least affected and which do not care today, even if we warn us and those who have experienced several times this terrible thing in the past, more cautious and more receptive.

When the United Nations is preparing a force to fight the pirates who wake up again, in the waters near Somalia, you can be sure there will be some countries which will be delighted to follow and lend their fleet, knowing all they have suffered. They prefer to act before suffering, destroy a small threat before it becomes a great threat. ( blight and darkspawn = destruction )  And there are others like Ferelden which never suffered the blight before, where it will take longer time.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 août 2011 - 07:07 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think that the joining falls into that grey area that Finn mentioned in Witch Hunt. It's not the blood itself that is important, I would imagine it's the fact that darkspawn blood contains the taint.

[Wulfram]

If it's blood magic, it's blood magic which the Chantry clearly doesn't have problem with - since the Mages prepare the blood for the ritual - so why should the King?

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 août 2011 - 07:04 .

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think that the joining falls into that grey area that Finn mentioned in Witch Hunt. It's not the blood itself that is important, I would imagine it's the fact that darkspawn blood contains the taint.

I have to admit I don't understand Finn's logic at all. Because from what I get is that he's saying blood isn't used to power the spell and it's just a component. But the spell itself can't function without the blood, so doesn't that mean it is powering the spell in a way?

The same thing for both types of Joinings and the phylacteries. The blood is both a component and something that's powering the spell.

I don't know, that's how I look at it.

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

If it's blood magic, it's blood magic which the Chantry clearly doesn't have problem with - since the Mages prepare the blood for the ritual - so why should the King?

I think the Warden mages were preparing it if there were any (one would assume there would be anyway). Duncan had a couple dozen Wardens with him, so it's possible and makes more sense than just letting Circle mages do it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 août 2011 - 07:10 .

[Wulfram]

Back in Origins there was still supposed to be only 1 warden mage, so I don't think so. Plus, the mages are guarded by Templars.

[dragonflight288]

If it's blood magic, it's blood magic which the Chantry clearly doesn't have problem with - since the Mages prepare the blood for the ritual - so why should the King?

I don't think the Chantry knows it's blood magic. No one knew that the recruits use blood. Alistair says they use lyrium and other components that the mages prepare, so as far as the templars, Circle of Magi, and the Chantry is aware of, that's all that's involved. They don't know about darkspawn and archdemon blood.

It is blood magic.

[naledgeborn]

The Joining Ritual involves drinking blood of Darkspawn and.... you guessed it! An Archdemon who are supposedly tainted Old Gods. If that sh!t isn't considered blood magic I don't know what is.

I just finished the Deep Roads Pt 1 in DA2 today and I found something that Cassandra mentioned in passing as curious.

"So the Champion's brother/sister was a Grey Warden!"
"Yes but that's not the connection you're looking for."
"It would explain their involvement."

What does this mean? I interpreted it as Grey Wardens' involvement being something going on in the present (9:40) than something that happened in past tense. Does this mean that the Wardens broke neutrality and is taking sides in the Mage-Templar War? Something to think about.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think that the joining falls into that grey area that Finn mentioned in Witch Hunt. It's not the blood itself that is important, I would imagine it's the fact that darkspawn blood contains the taint.

I have to admit I don't understand Finn's logic at all. Because from what I get is that he's saying blood isn't used to power the spell and it's just a component. But the spell itself can't function without the blood, so doesn't that mean it is powering the spell in a way?

The same thing for both types of Joinings and the phylacteries. The blood is both a component and something that's powering the spell.

I don't know, that's how I look at it.

Blood isn't the fuel of the spell. A car won't work without any number of it's components but they don't all power the car.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 août 2011 - 09:24 .

[dragonflight288]

That ritual was a grey area, because the blood didn't power the spell. The joining and the Reaver specs were blood magic because it is entirely powered by blood. Dragon and archdemon/darkspawn.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know that the joining is quite the same as the reaver's ritual. Reavers drink blood because of the power contained in the blood. But blood in and of itself isn't the point of the joining, it's just the best way to be exposed to the darkspawn taint.

[dragonflight288]

You can bet the Chantry would consider it blood magic though.

[Sepewrath]

jamesp81 wrote...
The Wardens are a transnational military organization whose relations are governed by treaties with other powers.  As far as I'm aware, the Wardens don't have a treaty with the Chantry, so there is NO legal framework for their interactions.

So maybe it was Chantry authorized.  I still think it wasn't, but so what if it was?  The Chantry chases apostates, and generally lets the Wardens have apostates if they want.  It isn't written anywhere that the Chantry has to acceed to that custom in every case, especially in the absence of a treaty.

Well I would think their interaction is governed by those treaties they have with the nations. The right to conscript anyone they deem are fit for the Wardens, encompasses everyone within the country, including those under Chantry charge. The Chantry would also have to have treaties with the individual nations, whether it is written or just accepted, which allows to them to go about their business within a country. I would think what separates the Wardens is that as an organization, they hold no alliegance to a country. A mage in the Ferelden Circle is Ferelden, but a Warden in Ferelden is not Ferelden. At least that's how I would look at a treaty.

[Wulfram]

The Chantry must be aware of it. Even ignoring the Mage involvement in preparing for the ritual, are we really supposed to beleive that no Warden has blabbed in 1000 years? Despite the Wardens seemingly taking no measures to ensure loyalty from their recruits?

[Sepewrath]

Where do you get the idea that Wardens don't instill loyalty in their troops? Especially since a number of Wardens probably become Wardens by being conscripted out of punishments. There is probably a since of loyalty established right there as your saved from prison or execution and join what is essentially a brotherhood.

[Wulfram]

Sepewrath wrote...

Where do you get the idea that Wardens don't instill loyalty in their troops?

The fact that Duncan still recruits you even if you constantly make it totally clear that you really really don't want to be a warden.

Also Riordan's "what does loyalty matter" speech when you're the matter of Loghain's speech is discussed.  And the fact that we've seen at least two deserters from the order in Anders and Drunkistair - though admittedly Anders still seems to keep a few of the secrets of the order.

[Sepewrath]

Well 2 deserters out of how many? Also, I'm sure most people don't want to be Wardens, assuming that there life will be nothing but an endless battle against Darkspawn. I cant imagine, there are too many people excited about it, especially those who are taken like the Dalish Warden. However, like you see with Carver, the attitude can change to something positive.