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[Sashimi_taco]

I think if they are already aliens, then what difference does it make to them what gender Shepard is?

Modifié par Sashimi_taco, 22 août 2011 - 09:31 .

[Carfax]

IsaacShep wrote...

Then why do you post it as an argument? In the end, style still came before realism, which means realism is not always the most important if it's about providing the players lots of options. It's an RPG afterall, so it's only naturally their goal to give as many options as possible.

I use all arrows in my quiver, as I'm not about to play fair in this debate

Yes Kasumi would be one single example. But then of course, it never goes anywhere other than appreciation while Shep can go all the way to bed with all the chicks. As for Ash, it was just her sister saying Kaidan's cute which only happens if you turn Ash down.

Well, the game already has enough bloody romances if you ask me.  You can't expect them to go into details about the romantic relationships between NPCs.  You have to draw a line somewhere, as Mass Effect isn't a dating game or the Sims.

Which ended just in time for ME2 so Shep could bang them. Again, the goal to provide lots of options came before realism.

Look, I see your point, I really do.  But, I don't think you understand that homosexuality is a touchy subject.  We saw the backlash with DA2 when Anders was "revealed" to be bisexual (and I don't mean contextually bi but genuinely bi)..

If Bioware did the same thing in ME3 with Kaidan, Ashley etc by making them bi when they were previously straight, it would cause an upset and countless threads about how Bioware is teh gay and forcing it down our throats blah blah blah.

It's much safer to develop new NPCs for S/S when you consider that.

[Carfax]

RinjiRenee wrote...

The notion that "Sheploo" is somehow a James Bond and paragon of heterosexuality is ridiculous, because he's not a static character.

He's not a static character, but he was marketed as a James Bond like character.  Who Shepard is in the game is subjective, but in other media ie books, movies etc, he will have to take on a more defined persona and set of attributes.

If they make a Mass Effect movie, do you think it would go over well if Shepard starts to flirt with Kaidan? 

Ashley's sister says he's cute I think but she definitely does not move to pursue.  Neither does any other character for that matter.

Yes, my mistake.  But, as I replied to IsaacShep, you can't expect them to go into details about the relationships between the other crew mates, as this game isn't a romance or dating sim.

[azerSheppard]

Comsky159 wrote...

What? did you think they were asexual? For me the origin of a romance is a little different to altering a characters sexual orientation. FYI while I was critical of the Garrus/Tali romances, I think Bioware got away with them. Just.  But it would be really excessive to have no romance option in the first game, introduce it in the second game and then after all that alter it without logical precedent in the third game.

Because I'm anticipating an "oh nos my immersion is ruined" reply. I'll say that in explicit relevance to this character it would be eroded significantly. The powers of the "suspension of disbelief" concept are not limitless.

Of course it won't happen though. Bioware aren't that foolish.

I think we can establish that if characters were bisexual, they would have approached both genders in ME2, after all the whole bisexual argument is based on the only personality matters ideology. (btw if I hear another
proposal for a “coming out of the closet subplot” in a traditional sci-fi epic...>:| )

But I’m sick of answering this question.

GodWood wrote...

--> S/S Romance thread

Agreed, if Ashly is a possible SS char, explain how her religion fits into that? Forget about her and kaiden.

Let's talk about ME2 LI, why didn't any of them aside from kelly (ho) approach ss char? Liara is the only one that works, since she was already "down" with both.

[leggywillow]

Carfax wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

The notion that "Sheploo" is somehow a James Bond and paragon of heterosexuality is ridiculous, because he's not a static character.

He's not a static character, but he was marketed as a James Bond like character.  Who Shepard is in the game is subjective, but in other media ie books, movies etc, he will have to take on a more defined persona and set of attributes.

Just because they used that persona as a marketing image doesn't mean anything about the character at all.  Shepard can already be a straight, bisexual, or homosexual woman.  Why would giving that ManShep that option mess anything up?

So yeah, Movie Shepard (which I am endlessly pissed about, but that's another topic) is probably going to be a hardass space marine with the good of the galaxy in mind who likes apple pie and baseball and kissing ladies.  Why should that affect what options are present in the game at all?

[Deejtage]

azerSheppard wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

What? did you think they were asexual? For me the origin of a romance is a little different to altering a characters sexual orientation. FYI while I was critical of the Garrus/Tali romances, I think Bioware got away with them. Just.  But it would be really excessive to have no romance option in the first game, introduce it in the second game and then after all that alter it without logical precedent in the third game.

Because I'm anticipating an "oh nos my immersion is ruined" reply. I'll say that in explicit relevance to this character it would be eroded significantly. The powers of the "suspension of disbelief" concept are not limitless.

Of course it won't happen though. Bioware aren't that foolish.

I think we can establish that if characters were bisexual, they would have approached both genders in ME2, after all the whole bisexual argument is based on the only personality matters ideology. (btw if I hear another
proposal for a “coming out of the closet subplot” in a traditional sci-fi epic...>:| )

But I’m sick of answering this question.

GodWood wrote...

--> S/S Romance thread

Agreed, if Ashly is a possible SS char, explain how her religion fits into that? Forget about her and kaiden.

Let's talk about ME2 LI, why didn't any of them aside from kelly (ho) approach ss char? Liara is the only one that works, since she was already "down" with both.

Being gay and having a religion aren't necessarily exclusive. There are a lot of Christian homosexuals, Catholic homosexuals, etc. etc.

We've been over that point many times already, in this thread and others.

[Carfax]

leggywillow wrote...

Just because they used that persona as a marketing image doesn't mean anything about the character at all.  Shepard can already be a straight, bisexual, or homosexual woman.  Why would giving that ManShep that option mess anything up?

OK, who said Bioware ISN'T giving players the option for DudeShep to be gay in ME3?  They are the last time I checked..

This debate isn't about whether Shepard can be gay in ME3.  It's about having previous squadmates that were known to be heterosexual, become homosexual/bisexual for the player.

So yeah, Movie Shepard (which I am endlessly pissed about, but that's another topic) is probably going to be a hardass space marine with the good of the galaxy in mind who likes apple pie and baseball and kissing ladies.  Why should that affect what options are present in the game at all?

It shouldn't, and doesn't affect the options in the game.  As I said, the game itself is already very subjective, and Bioware is giving gays the opportunity to finally play Shepard as a gay man in ME3.

But, in other types of media, Shepard would naturally take on a more defined set of characteristics, which will most likely resemble how he has been marketed over the years, ie a straight, badass dude with lots of cool weapons and gadgets and powers.

[shepskisaac]

Carfax wrote...

Look, I see your point, I really do.  But, I don't think you understand that homosexuality is a touchy subject.  We saw the backlash with DA2 when Anders was "revealed" to be bisexual (and I don't mean contextually bi but genuinely bi)..

If Bioware did the same thing in ME3 with Kaidan, Ashley etc by making them bi when they were previously straight, it would cause an upset and countless threads about how Bioware is teh gay and forcing it down our throats blah blah blah.

It's much safer to develop new NPCs for S/S when you consider that.

So it's about fear of illogical complaints from homophobic players? Because unlike you say, there were never said to be only straight at any point. The fact some players interpreted it that way doesn't make it canon. Some people could interpret cartain characters as asexuals because they didn't say they were into Shep/anyone else, that doesn't make it canon either. It's just a personal interpretation based on what is said and unsaid in the game. Nothing says one or another inpretretation will be automatically correct. Some people interpreted Darth Vader as the Galactic tyrant and never suspected he was the father of Luke, that didn't make it canon.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If you don't want to have your Shepard have a S/S relationship, then don't do it. If you do go for it. Nor does it matter with whom it is among your mates. The only people it will matter to would just complain about something else if it wasn't there.

This is a role playing game.

[Requiem of Faith]

I don't need all of the guys suddenly hitting on me in ME3 like they did in DA:2. It was an unnecessary headache, and it just made fighting with them that much more awkward.

[jbblue05]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

If you don't want to have your Shepard have a S/S relationship, then don't do it. If you do go for it. Nor does it matter with whom it is among your mates. The only people it will matter to would just complain about something else if it wasn't there.

This is a role playing game.

So if the game isn't gay or straight enough for you go play something else?

[Clonedzero]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

I think if they are already aliens, then what difference does it make to them what gender Shepard is?

well i dunno, if a psycho held a gun to my head and said i had to have sex with a chimp or he'd kill me, i'd pick the girl chimp, thats me though.

[Twilight_Princess]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

I think if they are already aliens, then what difference does it make to them what gender Shepard is?

 

You don't suddenly become bisexual if someone isn't what you normally consider atheistically pleasing, you still are aware of their sex. And if you are het or gay no amount of strange or unattractive qualities will change that, that person still embodies a biological male or female , in the way they speak , behave and the mechanics  in which you have to be intimate with them. Remember we aren’t talking hanar here, we’re talking human models with just an alien skin on them , and honestly  just by the way they speak and act and look they really aren’t THAT alien.
 
 Garrus has never said (neither has ANY turian) that he can't tell the difference between humans , neither has thane neither has Tali.  Do you have trouble accepting or believing garrus acts like a human male for example? So why the assumption they are blind or can’t see “maleness” and “femaleness” that is recognisable in their own species?
 
Why is it hard to think that these characters made the jump to the other species because they recognised shepard was of a particular sex and so made the process much easier? I will also just say that the fact the alien romances in ME2 were shepard initiated shows there was a significance of the sex of the shepard at least to that character.  I say this because when asked WHY the romance option didn’t show up for the other sex of shepard the response is typically;
 
“
Manshep wasn’t confident enough/brave enough/forward like femshep”

and vice versa , basically saying one sex of shepard lacked or had something the other didn’t. Whether it was knowledge or a characteristic that allowed them to initiate romance.  Now this makes NO SENSE because they are one and the same shepard. While you may end up with a more renegade/paragon shepard compared to the person next to you they BOTH had the same exact same opportunities available to them. Meaning it’s ludicrous to say femshep is more this or that because they are not separate entities.

The only thing that differs between them is how OTHERS react to them because of their biological sex . So if a romance option wasn’t available to you in 2 it’s not because (“well femshep is more forward than manshep”) it’s because that character you are interested in isn’t interested in biological females or males. It’s not because your shepard “didn’t have the opportunity” they had the exact same potential and knowledge at their dispoal as the other sex because they are the same "shepard" so something else prevented you from pursuing romance.
One sex of shepard does not have better attributes or qualities that is unique to them or better than the other sex.
 
*edit*

I'm just trying to say there needs to be a better thought a reason than alien= bi , I've seen great reasons for kaidan for example and ideas for other characters for them to be s/s that are unique to them (saying aliens wouldn't care must then apply to ALL alien characters as it isn't specific) . Ships have sailed already for the characters we are familiar with so there has to be well thought out reasons why they weren't available before. Romances that weren't initiated by shep work better and make more sense to happen later for example because there could be a valid reason why THEY didn't pursue.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 22 août 2011 - 10:27 .

[Someone With Mass]

Rojahar wrote...
Tali isn't even human, isn't even reproductively compatable, yet I don't see you rallying against alien LIs existing.

Some people seem to never have grasped the concept behind adoption, either.

[Someone With Mass]

Rojahar wrote...

If the argument is that homosexuality shouldn't be an option in the game because its sexually "deviant" and not reproductively viable, then can't the same argument be applied to the Tali and Garrus romances? Human/Turian romances are even less common than homosexuality, and just as inviable for reproduction. If inter-species romance is OK, but homosexual romance isn't because somehow "straight romance with a creature that isn't human is still OK, as long as its straight" then why is FemShep's romance with Liara OK?

Beats me. 

Even the Vally Girl Quarian is dating guys of different species, and that seems to be just fine by everyone's standards. Some asari are even dating krogans and salarians.

I'm okay with ******/bisexuality in Mass Effect, as long as it's done right, and I won't end on a bad note with a potential S/S romance just because I try to be nice to the guy, but don't want to romance him.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 22 août 2011 - 10:24 .

[ipgd]

Garrus has never said (neither has ANY turian) that he can't tell the difference between humans , neither has thane neither has Tali. Do you have trouble accepting believing garrus acts like a human male? So why the assumption they are blind or can’t see “maleness” and “femaleness” that is recognisable in their own species?

Why is it hard to think that these characters made the jump to the other species because they recognised shepard was of a particular sex and so made the process much easier?

People are not attracted to what someone states their gender is. People are attracted to secondary sexual characteristics that typically align with sex and gender, but it is not the binary state of sex or gender by itself that determines a person's viability as a partner.

Neither male nor female Shepard would have any sort of appealing turian secondary sexual characteristics. Female Shepard would not be any more physically attractive to Garrus than a male Shepard, because neither of them actually register as 'sexually attractive turian female'. Unless Garrus has a fetish for humans, and is actually physically attracted to human features specifically (which his romance establishes he is not), it really would not make any difference whether Shepard is male or female. He makes it pretty clear that it is an emotional attraction overcoming a lack of physical compatibility, and in that respect, male Shepard should be no more unappealing than female Shepard.

That Garrus is available to a female Shepard and not male Shepard is pretty much entirely owed to metagame issues and politics.

[ipgd]

Rezources wrote...

With all due respect to those of you who play as gay Shep:

Garrus does not take it in the butt.

Yeah, Garrus is a cloaca kinda guy.

[Zkyire]

Rezources wrote...

With all due respect to those of you who play as gay Shep:

Garrus does not take it in the butt.

Of course not, Shepard is the bottom in that relationship.

[Agamo45]

I'm going to be irritated if BW caves to the lunatics on this forum and makes established characters gay.