997 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

Sundance31us wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...
Ashley going bisexual.

This is all Asley's fault? I left her on Virmire with the bomb, which explains why everything blew up.

Yeah, basically. She mentioned 'God'.

Bioware likely planning her for a bisexual (not confirmed I don't think?)

So.. political..."maelstrom" 

[Deejtage]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Are we really talking about the hypocritical, murderous, piece of sh*t that is Christianity?

This thread is so getting locked now

[jbblue05]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

...How the frick did you people start talking about Christianity in all this?

Ashley going bisexual.

...I don't recall Ashley ever specifying being a Christian, I remember her believing in God, but to believe in God is not to be Christian.

Besides, you see how lax religion is today? Now, add an extra 170 years on that. Assuming religion is even still majoritly practised, I don't think anyone will care about homosexual religious people or not, just saying.

Well according to ME lore once aliens were discovered religous texs were rewritten and may new religion spouted after the discovery

[darkangelvxvx]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Are we really talking about the hypocritical, murderous, piece of sh*t that is Christianity?

Yep, awesome huh?

[Blitzkrieg0811]

Garrus and Tali were made LIs in ME2 due to overwhelming demand. The push for s/s in ME3 is strong, yes, but not nearly as much as the constant spam and unbelievable fanfic shipping that was done on the Bioboards three years ago.

[Zyandrel]

jbblue05 wrote...

Zyandrel wrote...

This is also assuming that christianity has stayed the same as its current incarnation. You know, the whole aliens and proving that humans aren't the only living, sentients in the galaxy might muddle some of the doctrine a bit. Not to mention a simple evolution. Who is to say that in 50 years christianity might find a document that says "Homosexuality A-okay!" or simply it is voted on and deemed no longer a sin.

with God's approval of courseB)

You're aware that if the Catholic church deems something true or false about the bible, through a council, then the dogma can change, right?  This is why things like slavery are now considered immoral by the church.

[leggywillow]

Has anyone else noticed that Agamo is ignoring all the replies that he can't fight back against?  Or is it just me?

[Zyandrel]

Agamo45 wrote...
-snip-

The values have lasted for over 2000 years, I don't see why not.

No, they haven't.  There have been multiple  changes to religious dogma over the past two centuries.

[ipgd]

leggywillow wrote...

Has anyone else noticed that Agamo is ignoring all the replies that he can't fight back against?  Or is it just me?

Standard fare for this kinds of things. After all, his arguments aren't actually arguments meant to stand on their own merits, they're excuses that allow him to feel justified in his bigotries.

[Bcuz]

CommanderJessica wrote...

I don't understand the unconditional love lots of ME fans have for her. I don't hate her but she's not my favourite character by any means.

It's 20% charicter 30% accent and 50% squee.

But that's generally how most mass fandom starts out so, hey.

[Deejtage]

leggywillow wrote...

Has anyone else noticed that Agamo is ignoring all the replies that he can't fight back against?  Or is it just me?

Glad I am not the only who noticed that.

[Biotic Sage]

ipgd wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

Has anyone else noticed that Agamo is ignoring all the replies that he can't fight back against?  Or is it just me?

Standard fare for this kinds of things. After all, his arguments aren't actually arguments meant to stand on their own merits, they're excuses that allow him to feel justified in his bigotries.

While I disagree with the bigotry, he makes a good point about basing your religious beliefs around cherry-picking what you like from a book.  But this is a discussion for another place and time...

[LilyasAvalon]

@jbblue: Kind of the point as well. A religious text is not written on the basis of 'visions' or whatever, it's written by what the writer believed was practical at the time.

If I remember right, the whole 'Thou Shalt Not Eat Shellfish' was implemented into the Bible because of disease that was spreading THROUGH shellfish at the time.

You take that into account, it means that future religions that were created or rewritten were done so to accomodate to the time period it was written. In 170 years, I think it's safe to say no one gives a frick if you're homosexual or not. ESPECIALLY with the asari women now in the picture.

[darkangelvxvx]

http://t3.gstatic.co...u7dZgrGMwwjwyag

Riker would be proud

[Zkyire]

So back to the OP of Tali and Garrus anyone?

[Quething]

ipgd wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Yeah right, you've already exposed your true (religious) reasons why you don't want it. And that's the point of all these anti s/s threads. After 10 pages, it always comes out why do people actually don't want it. And surprise surprise, it's always either religion brought up or 'homosexuality is a choice'. Every thread ends the same way. But at the begining, all the anti s/s people always pretend it's about "established characters", nevermind these characters were never established as exclusively straight.

To be fair, religion isn't the reason for these posters' bigotries. Religion is the justification for an underlying bigotry that cannot be defended in any matter other than the refuge in irrationality that is religious faith. Their prejudice would exist with or without their religion; that their religion would seem to confirm their preconceived judgments is merely a convenience.

Indeed. A huge number of Christians used Christianity to support slavery, back when emancipation started gaining steam in pre-Civil War America. (Paul, again, mostly.) Religion is convenient that way. You can make it say anything you need it to, provided you have the authority. Because much like politics, major religions tend to be complex things with grey areas and few simple solutions, and thus most people would rather just believe what they're told by someone who seems to know what they're talking about. (Chief among those things, in religion's case: "this religion has never changed its perspective. On anything.")

Anyway, No True Scotsman fallacy aside, I will spot anyone who claims Ash can't be queer on "religious" grounds the consistency of their claim, if not the validity. If you honestly believe that religious people can't be gay, then Ashley's established characterization does prevent her from being gay.

Of course, if you believe that, you're wrong, so a queer Ash in ME3 would be just fine, but at least you're not making a hypocritical argument with the "character continuity" claim the way Tali/Garrus fans are.

[sTrYkZ1LLa]

Everyone's forgetting the first openly gay space pope, and if you can't prove he exist then don't pretend to know Tali or Garrus sexuality.

[Agamo45]

IsaacShep wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

You quoted archaic laws that no longer apply, such as the mixed-fabric verse. The coming of Christ washed those away. The law against homosexuality still very much applies, as there are verses about it in the New Testament.

Brilliant, I knew you would say it. Yes, we're left with the New Testament. If you're such a great Christian as you say, you will of course know the only person in the New Testament who's against homosexuality is "Saint" Paul. The same one who supports slavery. :happy: What sane, Christian person will follow anything a fan of slavery says?

Agamo45 wrote...
In any case, the main point is that it would be bad-storytelling and blatant fanservice on Bioware's part to make established characters gay, especially ones like Ashley.

Yeah right, you've already exposed your true (religious) reasons why you don't want it. And that's the point of all these anti s/s threads. After 10 pages, it always comes out why do people actually don't want it. And surprise surprise, it's always either religion brought up or 'homosexuality is a choice'. Every thread ends the same way. But at the begining, all the anti s/s people always pretend it's about "established characters", nevermind these characters were never established as exclusively straight.

I've never hid my beliefs that I find homosexual behavior abhorrent. Also, if you had actually read the verse instead of doing an internet search to find evidence for your hatred, you would know that St.Paul doesn't condone slavery at all, he sends the escaped slave back as a free man.

[shepskisaac]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

So back to the OP of Tali and Garrus anyone?

There's nothing more to say really. They can be bisexual as anyone else. Until there's an option for same-sex Shep to hit on them and get turned down or until they mention "I don't like same-sex" someway, the doors are opened, no matter how much some people may not like it.

Better to just leave this thread die.

[jbblue05]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

@jbblue: Kind of the point as well. A religious text is not written on the basis of 'visions' or whatever, it's written by what the writer believed was practical at the time.

If I remember right, the whole 'Thou Shalt Not Eat Shellfish' was implemented into the Bible because of disease that was spreading THROUGH shellfish at the time.

You take that into account, it means that future religions that were created or rewritten were done so to accomodate to the time period it was written. In 170 years, I think it's safe to say no one gives a frick if you're homosexual or not. ESPECIALLY with the asari women now in the picture.

People most likely replaced their primitive hatred of homosexuals and people of a different race with hatred of aliens, based off what happened in Shanxi.   A common enemy brings people together

[Carfax]

Rojahar wrote...

How is homosexuality so much more deviant in your eyes than sex with a completely different species?

Homosexuality is real, and those other species are figments of Bioware's imagination.  That said, I am completely against that too.

The Asari were fine (and maybe even Quarians since they exhibit mammalian characteristics) but Bioware went over the line with Turians, Drell etc..

And who's to say certain members of the crew don't? Because Kaiden doesn't talk with a lisp, he can't possibly be bisexual or bicurious?

It's about perception.  Kaidan was an LI for FemShep in ME, and not DudeShep....which means to me that he was straight.

And Garrus/Tali weren't represented as being interested in humans in ME1 either, yet they are LIs in ME2.

Indeed, and I disagree with it completely as I said.  Tali is more understandable as Quarians seem to share many human physical characteristics, ie breasts etc...

But TURIANS?!  Give me a break Bioware..

Tali isn't even human, isn't even reproductively compatable, yet I don't see you rallying against alien LIs existing. I'm not even suggesting that every LI be a bi-LI. I'm curious what reason, other than homophobia (which I assume you are not as an accusation, but because of your use the "throw up" emoticon at the very notion of homosexuality's existence) there are for being against a character who was previously not an S/S option being an S/S option in ME3.

Tali has feminine characteristics associated with human females, so I'm not as against that as I am against Turians and drell being made LIs.. 

As I said in the OP, if you read it, how is Tali/Garrus suddenly having an interest in inter-species sexual relations, when they SHOWED no tendencies in ME1, any different from... let's say the only female bi option is Miranda. Why would it be any different from Miranda, and just Miranda, becoming a bi LI in ME3? If you're principly against it because you think it would be a betrayal of her character, then shouldn't you also be against the Tali romance?

I already explained above.  Bioware wanted to portray Shepard as a Captain Kirk like character, which was why they made the Asari.  Now the Quarians are not unlike humans in that they have a similar anatomy, so it's not so freakish as all that.

However, Turians and Drell are completely different from humans, so Bioware definitely crossed the line with that nonsense.

[Sundance31us]

If I offended anyone, except Agamo45, I apologize.