Also some of the points were jest. Yes I realize the Krogan Nuked themselves to dust, but, that's like saying we shot eachother to death and then stopped, during WWI
Modifié par HadenHanibal, 23 août 2011 - 06:46 .
Tali/Garrus = Character Development... But S/S = Character Betrayal?
Débuté par
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#776
Posté 23 août 2011 - 06:43
HadenHanibal
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Not over-simpificaftion if it is used in most writing scenarios as a point of reference, in which case, Mass effect is.
Also some of the points were jest. Yes I realize the Krogan Nuked themselves to dust, but, that's like saying we shot eachother to death and then stopped, during WWI
Also some of the points were jest. Yes I realize the Krogan Nuked themselves to dust, but, that's like saying we shot eachother to death and then stopped, during WWI
Retour en haut
#777
Posté 23 août 2011 - 06:46
BubbleSauce
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HadenHanibal wrote...
Krogan's I see as either the mongols or the Irish or WWII Japan:
Barbaric thuggish and quick to a fight, feeling their property gain is more valuable than their neighbors.
Ok, screw you, we are absolutly nothing like that, in fact we are one of the nicer nations of the EU, we have a great sense of community here also. Your playing off of a stereotype which was never true in the first place, why don't you go ahead and call us drunken while you're at it?...
Also the turians are based of the romans, not the americans
Modifié par BubbleSauce, 23 août 2011 - 06:48 .
#778
Posté 23 août 2011 - 06:49
HadenHanibal
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There are more Drunks per capital than people <.<
take a joke when it's presented if you cant discern which ones are jokes here:
Irish
Tentacle monsters
Robots. (though any nation willing to build a Gundam statue in one of their major cities is kinda called into question)
I can see Turians being based on the Romans, but they were a very Expansive culture that cared about the influence of all their things, not just their military might. Turians on the other hand, have little art outside of Palivan (however it's spelled)
America is often only seen as a nation that wants power and resources by other countries and is willing to fight, or sell weapons to get it. *fixed*
take a joke when it's presented if you cant discern which ones are jokes here:
Irish
Tentacle monsters
Robots. (though any nation willing to build a Gundam statue in one of their major cities is kinda called into question)
I can see Turians being based on the Romans, but they were a very Expansive culture that cared about the influence of all their things, not just their military might. Turians on the other hand, have little art outside of Palivan (however it's spelled)
America is often only seen as a nation that wants power and resources by other countries and is willing to fight, or sell weapons to get it. *fixed*
Modifié par HadenHanibal, 23 août 2011 - 06:54 .
#779
Posté 23 août 2011 - 06:49
Leonia
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HadenHanibal wrote...
Not over-simpificaftion if it is used in most writing scenarios as a point of reference, in which case, Mass effect is.
Also some of the points were jest. Yes I realize the Krogan Nuked themselves to dust, but, that's like saying we shot eachother to death and then stopped, during WWI
Now I know you are trolling.
#780
Posté 23 août 2011 - 06:52
HadenHanibal
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If it was implied that my comparison into Pseudo-cultural gaming and Historical reference was taken as a troll, I apologize, it wasn't intended as such
#781
Posté 23 août 2011 - 06:54
BubbleSauce
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HadenHanibal wrote...
There are more Drunks per capital than people <.<
take a joke when it's presented if you cant discern which ones are jokes here:
Irish
Tentacle monsters
Robots. (though any nation willing to build a Gundam statue in one of their major cities is kinda called into question)
I can see Turians being based on the Romans, but they were a very Expansive culture that cared about the influence of all their things, not just their military might. Turians on the other hand, have little art outside of Palivan (however it's spelled)
In what codex entry was that? And it says on the wiki, that they based on the romans, america is not a militarian state, whats more people don't see the turians in the same light as they see americans, they see turians as a ruthlessly efficiant, militarian state, not like america at all.
#782
Posté 23 août 2011 - 06:58
HadenHanibal
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Kasumi mentions it during her loyalty quest. Whom I'd trust since she's an art theif.
Modifié par HadenHanibal, 23 août 2011 - 06:59 .
#783
Posté 23 août 2011 - 06:59
ladyvader
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I don't think it's in the codex, but Kasumi did say that while looking at the art in Hock's vault.BubbleSauce wrote...
HadenHanibal wrote...
There are more Drunks per capital than people <.<
take a joke when it's presented if you cant discern which ones are jokes here:
Irish
Tentacle monsters
Robots. (though any nation willing to build a Gundam statue in one of their major cities is kinda called into question)
I can see Turians being based on the Romans, but they were a very Expansive culture that cared about the influence of all their things, not just their military might. Turians on the other hand, have little art outside of Palivan (however it's spelled)
In what codex entry was that? And it says on the wiki, that they based on the romans, america is not a militarian state, whats more people don't see the turians in the same light as they see americans, they see turians as a ruthlessly efficiant, militarian state, not like america at all.
#784
Posté 23 août 2011 - 07:02
Jademoon121
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Turians seem to be borrowing more from Rome than America. It's a very rigid society that values civil service, military excellence, and colonization.
Quarian's are more akin to the Romani or Jews. They have no homeland as they lost it in war, and have been on the run ever since and are mistreated for it. The Romani in particular are a stateless people; they move place to place.
Asari are Greek or Italian Renaissance, in a more utopian fashion. The where divided along city state lines, all which valued art, politicking, and philosophy.
You can take any warlike "barbarian" culture and it fit the Krogan. We don't know a whole lot about their culture though, so it's anyone's guess. I can speak though as a pseudo-scholar that Ireland doesn't have any parallels to the Krogan.
Quarian's are more akin to the Romani or Jews. They have no homeland as they lost it in war, and have been on the run ever since and are mistreated for it. The Romani in particular are a stateless people; they move place to place.
Asari are Greek or Italian Renaissance, in a more utopian fashion. The where divided along city state lines, all which valued art, politicking, and philosophy.
You can take any warlike "barbarian" culture and it fit the Krogan. We don't know a whole lot about their culture though, so it's anyone's guess. I can speak though as a pseudo-scholar that Ireland doesn't have any parallels to the Krogan.
#785
Posté 23 août 2011 - 07:06
Leonia
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ladyvader wrote...
I don't think it's in the codex, but Kasumi did say that while looking at the art in Hock's vault.
It was a comment about the scarcity of their art and nothing more. It makes sense given their culture really.
And we're going to have a discussion on turian culture then please, everyone read the codex entry on them first.
Modifié par leonia42, 23 août 2011 - 07:07 .
#786
Posté 24 août 2011 - 12:10
swordmalice
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Well, here's my two cents.
I think all that we're doing here boils down to interpretation - unless Tali/Garrus had specifically stated "I'm not into guys/girls", all we can do is interpret that character's interaction with our Shepard and come to our own conclusions.
That said, I think Bioware has, with ME2, made an attempt to establish their orientation by way of indirect dialogue. Take for instance, Kelly Chambers and BroShep's convo if you talk to her after recruting Tali
KC: I had a wonderful chat with your friend Tali...etc
BroShep: Tali's a good friend. We've been through a lot together
KC: My female intuition tells me that she'd like to be more that just good friends...
Here is where players of BroShep get the first inkling of Tali's interest in them. What about with FemShep?
KC: I had a wonderful chat with your friend Tali...etc
FemShep: Tali's a good friend. We've been through a lot together
KC: And there's more to come.
Convo ends.
If someone playing ME2 with no prior knowledge of the romance options plays 2 playthroughs of Bro and FemShep and encounters both of these scenarios, I think it's safe to assume that the player would see two very different outcomes of their relationship with Tali as they played through. Same for Garrus. When I played through the game as BroShep, the final convo you have with Garrus about "reach and flexibility" comes across as two old friends doing what bros do best - talk about women. FemShep? Well, we all know how that one ends.
I think that to introduce these characters as suddenly gay would be pretty jarring given the way Bioware set the scenarios up mentioned above. If we are to believe homosexuality is something acquired at birth and is not something people can be wishy-washy about, then maintaining sexual orientation here is pretty important in order to maintain credence. Not doing so weakens character developement and casts homosexuality as something that people can just fall in and out of (which is not fair to homosexuals at all).
I think all that we're doing here boils down to interpretation - unless Tali/Garrus had specifically stated "I'm not into guys/girls", all we can do is interpret that character's interaction with our Shepard and come to our own conclusions.
That said, I think Bioware has, with ME2, made an attempt to establish their orientation by way of indirect dialogue. Take for instance, Kelly Chambers and BroShep's convo if you talk to her after recruting Tali
KC: I had a wonderful chat with your friend Tali...etc
BroShep: Tali's a good friend. We've been through a lot together
KC: My female intuition tells me that she'd like to be more that just good friends...
Here is where players of BroShep get the first inkling of Tali's interest in them. What about with FemShep?
KC: I had a wonderful chat with your friend Tali...etc
FemShep: Tali's a good friend. We've been through a lot together
KC: And there's more to come.
Convo ends.
If someone playing ME2 with no prior knowledge of the romance options plays 2 playthroughs of Bro and FemShep and encounters both of these scenarios, I think it's safe to assume that the player would see two very different outcomes of their relationship with Tali as they played through. Same for Garrus. When I played through the game as BroShep, the final convo you have with Garrus about "reach and flexibility" comes across as two old friends doing what bros do best - talk about women. FemShep? Well, we all know how that one ends.
I think that to introduce these characters as suddenly gay would be pretty jarring given the way Bioware set the scenarios up mentioned above. If we are to believe homosexuality is something acquired at birth and is not something people can be wishy-washy about, then maintaining sexual orientation here is pretty important in order to maintain credence. Not doing so weakens character developement and casts homosexuality as something that people can just fall in and out of (which is not fair to homosexuals at all).
Modifié par swordmalice, 24 août 2011 - 03:58 .
#787
Posté 24 août 2011 - 02:48
Destroy Raiden_
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^ FINALLLY Someone gets it! This is the underlying thing that's been argued about sense the s/s wars begin but the s/s crowd say who cares Tali could've been or the suggestive dialogue and all the against their conversion say end game results and ingame convos say other wise!
These two characters are established differently in each world fshep doesn't exist in msheps world and vis versa in the same way Hannah shep doesn't exist in non spacer shep worlds just because they're both named shep, can do the somethings doesn't make them the same person the worlds are set up with small changes that show these are more like alternative universe a second Earth syndrome if you will not the same world.
The fact conversations end at points or continue in others is very telling towards how these people where set up to be some characters where set up to be friends only in fsheps world others lovers and vis versa for msheps world.
These two characters are established differently in each world fshep doesn't exist in msheps world and vis versa in the same way Hannah shep doesn't exist in non spacer shep worlds just because they're both named shep, can do the somethings doesn't make them the same person the worlds are set up with small changes that show these are more like alternative universe a second Earth syndrome if you will not the same world.
The fact conversations end at points or continue in others is very telling towards how these people where set up to be some characters where set up to be friends only in fsheps world others lovers and vis versa for msheps world.
#788
Posté 24 août 2011 - 10:04
easyt3hremember
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Am I the only one of this forum who doesn't play mass effect for the romance's?
Also I don't care for the whole Anti S/S argument. if the fans wan't S/S let it happen.
Also I don't care for the whole Anti S/S argument. if the fans wan't S/S let it happen.
#789
Posté 24 août 2011 - 10:08
LGTX
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easyt3hremember wrote...
Am I the only one of this forum who doesn't play mass effect for the romance's?
Also I don't care for the whole Anti S/S argument. if the fans wan't S/S let it happen.
Despite the tone, I agree with this post. It's to the point.
#790
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Posté 24 août 2011 - 12:21
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Ren and Stimpy? No they weren't, at least not to me.lightsnow13 wrote...
Luigitornado wrote...
Yep. Pinky and the Brain, Bert and Ernie, CatDog, Tommie and Chuckie, Spongebob and Patrick, and just about everyother seemingly buddy-buddy cartoon characters.ipgd wrote...
Weren't Ren and Stimpy actually gay?Luigitornado wrote...
It is not fairly obvious that he is gay. Could he? Yes. But there is nothing in that video to suggest that he is, and I've seen more intimate looking moments in an episode of Ren and Stimpy than this.
Well, no. I don't think they're gay...but Ren and stimpy...yeah. I'll just leave this here.
#791
Posté 24 août 2011 - 12:51
LilyasAvalon
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All people will go through trains of sexual attraction towards their gender sometime in their life, hence why teenage 'experimenting' is also popular. I personally do not believe the theory that sexual attraction towards a specific gender is purely based on genetic reasons and that it is possible that choice plays a big role as well. It is possible for someone to be male and have a relationship with another male, but he will not be sexually attracted to other men.Luigitornado wrote...
No.LilyasAvalon wrote...
It... actually isn't bad writing. A character is perfectly capable of coming to care for someone as more than just a friend, just like a person is. All people are capable of being or becoming bisexual, it just depends on societal stigma, the situation, etc.
If your straight, your straight.
If your gay, your gay.
If your bisexual, your bisexual.
There is no "becoming," there is just confusion about your sexuality.
That said, it IS bad writing to have every character romanceable by either gender. It is not believable. Some other users are saying it's not important, but if it wasn't then people would not be so obessed over it, and there would not be an entire board partly devoted to "romance" here on the forums.
I do however agree with you, that saying that EVERY character should be romancable by either gender is bad writing because there are obviously other factors involved. Eg. If Ashley were still practising modern day Christianity, that would near immediatly eliminate her as an S/S in my opinion, because of her upbringing.
I'm just saying it's highly possibly from a psychological point of view.
#792
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Posté 24 août 2011 - 12:57
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Since when was Ashley a Christian?LilyasAvalon wrote...
*snip*
Eg. If Ashley were still practising modern day Christianity, that would near immediatly eliminate her as an S/S in my opinion, because of her upbringing.
I'm just saying it's highly possibly from a psychological point of view.
#793
Posté 24 août 2011 - 01:10
ScotGaymer
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First of all.
People in this thread and on these forums really need to learn the difference between Gay and Bisexual. They are quite different things.
Gay does not Equal Bi.
Second i think the OP was referring to the arguement that making some of the characters come out as "bisexual"(!) when there is no prior evidence that they arent/werent bisexual is somehow a retcon.
Specifically the fact that a lot of the people using this anti ss arguement are Talimancers.
It was established in ME1 that Quarians and Turians were not sexually compatible with Humans; and this was actually confirmed in ME2 in certain places (and contradicted in others). And to act like this is anything less than a fanservice retcon, and to continue to support this retcon while being against SS for MaleShep is the highest form of hypocracy.
And third.
Religion does not automatically make one unable to be gay or bisexual, or make one a homophobic idiot either.
I am a gay man, and I happen to have a friend who is a married heterosexual presbyterian minister. He has went for a drink with me to gay bars a number of times in the past (not that he drank any alcohol of course).
The attitudes of the Catholic Church do not reflect the attitues of ALL christians or ALL the varying christian churches. And no offense but the attitudes of the protestant churches towards homosexuals in the past 50 years has vastly changed.
Who is to say that those attitudes of organised christianity wont continue to change and improve in the future?
Why does belief in God automatically make you a homophobic or intolerant idiot?
We do not know how devout Ashley is. Nor do we know of which brand of christianity she belongs to. Hell we dont even know if she IS christian, only that she believes in "god". Also it is over a century into the future; peoples attitudes WILL have changed.
People in this thread and on these forums really need to learn the difference between Gay and Bisexual. They are quite different things.
Gay does not Equal Bi.
Second i think the OP was referring to the arguement that making some of the characters come out as "bisexual"(!) when there is no prior evidence that they arent/werent bisexual is somehow a retcon.
Specifically the fact that a lot of the people using this anti ss arguement are Talimancers.
It was established in ME1 that Quarians and Turians were not sexually compatible with Humans; and this was actually confirmed in ME2 in certain places (and contradicted in others). And to act like this is anything less than a fanservice retcon, and to continue to support this retcon while being against SS for MaleShep is the highest form of hypocracy.
And third.
Religion does not automatically make one unable to be gay or bisexual, or make one a homophobic idiot either.
I am a gay man, and I happen to have a friend who is a married heterosexual presbyterian minister. He has went for a drink with me to gay bars a number of times in the past (not that he drank any alcohol of course).
The attitudes of the Catholic Church do not reflect the attitues of ALL christians or ALL the varying christian churches. And no offense but the attitudes of the protestant churches towards homosexuals in the past 50 years has vastly changed.
Who is to say that those attitudes of organised christianity wont continue to change and improve in the future?
Why does belief in God automatically make you a homophobic or intolerant idiot?
We do not know how devout Ashley is. Nor do we know of which brand of christianity she belongs to. Hell we dont even know if she IS christian, only that she believes in "god". Also it is over a century into the future; peoples attitudes WILL have changed.
Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 24 août 2011 - 01:10 .
#794
Posté 24 août 2011 - 03:04
LilyasAvalon
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...I said IF. I was using it as an example about how an upbringing can affect a person's ability to intergrate.jreezy wrote...
Since when was Ashley a Christian?LilyasAvalon wrote...
*snip*
Eg. If Ashley were still practising modern day Christianity, that would near immediatly eliminate her as an S/S in my opinion, because of her upbringing.
I'm just saying it's highly possibly from a psychological point of view.
#795
Posté 24 août 2011 - 03:33
shepskisaac
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What the hell are you talking about. Religious upbringing won't make anyone not gay/bi.LilyasAvalon wrote...
If Ashley were still practising modern day Christianity, that would near immediatly eliminate her as an S/S in my opinion, because of her upbringing.
I'm just saying it's highly possibly from a psychological point of view.
#796
Posté 24 août 2011 - 03:40
Puzzlewell
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Exactly. I was raised by a Catholic grandmother and still ended up not straight. A religious upbringing doesn't mean a damn thing in this day and age, and I assume it'll mean even less come the time of ME.
Modifié par CalamityRanger, 24 août 2011 - 03:41 .
#797
Posté 24 août 2011 - 03:41
syllogi
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LilyasAvalon wrote...
...I said IF. I was using it as an example about how an upbringing can affect a person's ability to intergrate.jreezy wrote...
Since when was Ashley a Christian?LilyasAvalon wrote...
*snip*
Eg. If Ashley were still practising modern day Christianity, that would near immediatly eliminate her as an S/S in my opinion, because of her upbringing.
I'm just saying it's highly possibly from a psychological point of view.
I went to a Jesuit (Catholic) university and was an active member of a GLBT group on campus. Being raised Christian and being attracted to people of the same gender as yourself are not mutually exclusive.
#798
Guest_elektrego_*
Posté 24 août 2011 - 03:57
Guest_elektrego_*
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I was an altar boy, even briefly considered going to a seminary as a teenager and I eventually discovered that I can be attracted to people of both sexes (that doesn't mean I am attracted to everybody btw.)
Believing in and loving God doesn't mean you have to follow the rules others have set up for themselves, that is why I am no longer a member of any church, but still pray to God regularly.
Believing in and loving God doesn't mean you have to follow the rules others have set up for themselves, that is why I am no longer a member of any church, but still pray to God regularly.
#799
Posté 24 août 2011 - 03:58
Sylvianus
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The word of God promises the union of a woman and a man in almost all the modern religions. I do not see how one of the fundamental teachings of religion may be denied, without questioning religion. Ashley certainly does not question her religion if she is Christian.
And all the gays that I know or have met are anti-Christian or anti-religious or atheists. the proportion of gays, who still believe in God must be really ridiculous.
Why they do not like religion in general ? Simple, religion hasn't been kind to them.
And all the gays that I know or have met are anti-Christian or anti-religious or atheists. the proportion of gays, who still believe in God must be really ridiculous.
Why they do not like religion in general ? Simple, religion hasn't been kind to them.
Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 août 2011 - 03:58 .
#800
Posté 24 août 2011 - 04:04
swordmalice
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FitScotGaymer wrote...
It was established in ME1 that Quarians and Turians were not sexually compatible with Humans; and this was actually confirmed in ME2 in certain places (and contradicted in others).
I'm just curious - where in ME1 is this confirmed? Not disagreeing mind you - just would like a point of reference for myself (also we need to try to get back on topic, lol)
