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[Destroy Raiden_]

All the more reason for brandnew gay or bi characters to be made available for the newly bi shep. No one has ever said I'll totally not buy this game if Vega turns out to be bi and hits on my mshep because no one would care if Vega or any other new additions to the crew were a s/s option.

[shepskisaac]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

All the more reason for brandnew gay or bi characters to be made available for the newly bi shep. No one has ever said I'll totally not buy this game if Vega turns out to be bi and hits on my mshep because no one would care if Vega or any other new additions to the crew were a s/s option.

I see you keep bumping this over and over again. Then I'm gonna repeat fir the 39245873450th time. If you don't have a problem with Tali & Garrus, you can't have a problem with any other other character being available for new romance even if he/she wasn't. If you say otherwise, you're a hypocrite. Simple. The end.

[PauseforEffect]

So long as the romance has to be deliberately pursued for the character to be bi or gay or to keep them in a straight relationship, I see no problem with all characters being potentially gay. Since it'd be up to the player to determine it and if it was done convincingly, why not? Would be great for the crazy playthroughs of a messed up Shepard personality.
Only thing that'd bother me is the thought of someone of either gender catching Garrus' attention. Not fun when you have twice as many rivals with a bi LI. Then I realized that only Shepard does the hitting on. Sometimes whether you want her to or not (Jacob, anyone? And he's a straight romance that scares straight females)

[whywhywhywhy]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

All the more reason for brandnew gay or bi characters to be made available for the newly bi shep. No one has ever said I'll totally not buy this game if Vega turns out to be bi and hits on my mshep because no one would care if Vega or any other new additions to the crew were a s/s option.

I'm in favor or that or a toggle.

[ScotGaymer]

Personally I dont understand why people like the Tali and Garrus romances.

They kinda suck.

Actually let me rephrase that ALL the ME2 romances kinda suck. A problem caused by too many characters to write for and not enough time to write for them in.

I pretty much universally hate all the ME2 romances except for the pseudo romance you can engage Samara in. Thats just beautiful.
And Mordin with his "if wanted to try human would try you Shepard" line is just really sweet.

But the rest of them kinda suck. Not least because of the nightmarish ninjamances that pretty much result in you avoiding half your squad like the plague.

Once again I feel the need to say this (looking at you PrimalEden) being Gay is not the same as being Bisexual. Gay does not equal Bi.

And a Gay Toggle is not going to happen because of the homophobic implications such a thing has.

And again (looking at you this time whywhywhywhy) you cant realistically be against including SS by "retconning" established characters to becoming bisexual in the third ME while at the same time supporting the Tali and Garrus romances. Its just sheer hypocracy.

[AClockworkMelon]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Not least because of the nightmarish ninjamances that pretty much result in you avoiding half your squad like the plague.

I disagree with you in regards to the quality of the romances in ME2 but I agree with the quoted statement. I still remember Tali getting in my grill about Miranda and all I could think was "wtf? I never said I was in a relationship with you." Same goes for Jack.

[AlphaDormante]

I haven't been able to read the entirety of this thread yet, so I apologize if this has already been brought up, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in here real quick.

I'm often seeing the fact that Garrus/Tali don't express interest in the first game as a main argument for pro-S/S romances with the VS, under the implied claim that the situations are exactly the same. While I can definitely see the reasoning, I personally don't agree with this line of thinking.

This is how I interpreted things: in ME1, Ashley and Kaidan were at an emotional maturity to support a relationship; as our conversations often centered around philosophy and personal deatails or whatnot, this is the feeling I gathered whenever I spoke to them. Garrus and Tali, however, always struck me as having that level of wide-eyedness and naivety about Shepard and the galaxy around them, like they were still trying to figure out where they "fit" into things much like a young person would. I never got the impression that they were at stages in their lives in which they were ready to enter a serious relationship - especially, as steeply immersed into their own cultures as they were at that point, with a human.

Talking with them both in ME2, though, I immediately got the vibe that both had matured emotionally to the point that a deeper relationship didn't seem so far-fetched. Honestly, I probably wouldn't have even liked heterosexual relationships with them in the first game for this very reason. As I interpreted it, the reason that Garrus and Tali didn't express intent in ME1 was because they weren't emotionally ready for a relationship, whereas in ME2, they had matured and were then capable of showing interest.

This is all subjective opinion, of course; I should note that I support S/S romances in ME3  100%, but the "these relationships are the EXACT SAME THING!" argument has never sat well with me.

Edit: Whoops, I oopsied on Kaidan's name Please forgive me, Kaidan fans!

Modifié par AlphaDormante, 26 août 2011 - 10:15 .

[stysiaq]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Personally I dont understand why people like the Tali and Garrus romances.

They kinda suck.

Actually let me rephrase that ALL the ME2 romances kinda suck. A problem caused by too many characters to write for and not enough time to write for them in.

I pretty much universally hate all the ME2 romances except for the pseudo romance you can engage Samara in. Thats just beautiful.
And Mordin with his "if wanted to try human would try you Shepard" line is just really sweet.

But the rest of them kinda suck. Not least because of the nightmarish ninjamances that pretty much result in you avoiding half your squad like the plague.

Once again I feel the need to say this (looking at you PrimalEden) being Gay is not the same as being Bisexual. Gay does not equal Bi.

And a Gay Toggle is not going to happen because of the homophobic implications such a thing has.

And again (looking at you this time whywhywhywhy) you cant realistically be against including SS by "retconning" established characters to becoming bisexual in the third ME while at the same time supporting the Tali and Garrus romances. Its just sheer hypocracy.

Couldn't agree more, although I quite enjoy some of the romances. Garrus and Tali romances are awkward and I never do them. I reject Tali and Garrus turning xenosexual, and I reject old LIs becoming bi all of a sudden. But I won't be offended, if it will happen in ME3 - romancing anybody is just an option anyway, and it's my choice whether to use that option, or not.

Unless it is put in the game like Talis romance. I talk about Kelly, who instantly informs me, that Tali wants to shag me.

[Time4Tiddy]

AlphaDormante wrote...

I'm often seeing the fact that Garrus/Tali don't express interest in the first game as a main argument for pro-S/S romances with the VS, under the implied claim that the situations are exactly the same. While I can definitely see the reasoning, I personally don't agree with this line of thinking.

This is how I interpreted things: in ME1, Ashley and Kaiden were at an emotional maturity to support a relationship; as our conversations often centered around philosophy and personal deatails or whatnot, this is the feeling I gathered whenever I spoke to them. Garrus and Tali, however, always struck me as having that level of wide-eyedness and naivety about Shepard and the galaxy around them, like they were still trying to figure out where they "fit" into things much like a young person would. I never got the impression that they were at stages in their lives in which they were ready to enter a serious relationship - especially, as steeply immersed into their own cultures as they were at that point, with a human.

Talking with them both in ME2, though, I immediately got the vibe that both had matured emotionally to the point that a deeper relationship didn't seem so far-fetched. Honestly, I probably wouldn't have even liked heterosexual relationships with them in the first game for this very reason. As I interpreted it, the reason that Garrus and Tali didn't express intent in ME1 was because they weren't emotionally ready for a relationship, whereas in ME2, they had matured and were then capable of showing interest.

This is all subjective opinion, of course; I should note that I support S/S romances in ME3  100%, but the "these relationships are the EXACT SAME THING!" argument has never sat well with me.

I don't think the argument is so much that it's "exactly the same," as it is acknowledging that Tali and Garrus becoming romanceable was about catering to fanservice and shifting character development to support a romantic arc.  And then noting that a significant majority of the people who are vocally in support of Tali-mance and Gar-omance want to argue that making Ash or Kaidan bisexual is a fanservice retcon.  The part that is "exactly the same" is the part where Bioware caters to fanservice and shifts character development.  The in-game reasons why a character might decide to express a sexual attraction after not having expressed it before are not the same at all.

I'd also just keep in mind that the romances in ME1 were originally all written to be available to both genders, but Liara is the only one that stayed that way into release.  So honestly, it's *less* of a fanservice retcon to restore Ash and Kaidan to s/s availability than it was to add romances for Tali and Garrus. 

[NICKjnp]

No they weren't written for both genders. Only Liara was written for both genders. Meer and Hale recorded both lines of dialogue for both male and female Shepard because it was easier than going through the script and separating male and female Shepard's dialogue. They experimented to see if it would work in the game but felt that the lines wouldn't fit with a S/S romance. Neither VS was ever intended to be S/S....and it was not cut from the first game.

[Ghost Warrior]

Okay,I will be completely honest here. As someone who has until recently been against any kind of S/S in general,that was my main reason for not wanting it in ME3. And I tried to use many arguments such as character continuity to rationalize my homophobia,ignoring logic.
And while I have to say that continuity argument is somewhat reasonable,one fact completely discards it - people change. Most of the characters had some kind of growth and went through some kind of change between ME1 and ME2. And even if they were not gay/bi in first two games,nothing says that they can't be in ME3. Why? Because people change. I changed.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 26 août 2011 - 01:18 .

[NICKjnp]

People do change...but their sexuality does not. Sexuality is something someone is born with. Certain parts of the male brain is actually wired differently between a straight male and a gay male. True bisexuals are much less common than people on these forums like to realize. They often mistake a bisexual person's sexual attraction to their emotional attraction. Most bisexuals are attracted physically to both genders but emotionally to only one gender....because the male and female psyche are different (and that is a scientific fact). Furthermore it is much more likely for a bisexual person to be female than it is male. So if it previous characters become bisexual in ME3 then it is going to be fanservice (and poorly done fanservice) because in the previous two games they were presented as heterosexual.

[Ghost Warrior]

You have a point there,but it doesn't help your case. As much as I hated to admit it,they never said they were heterosexual. Yes,it's not likely that they are bi,but it's possible. Fanservice? Yes,but why the hell not? In so many romances,SS supporters deserve at least one such romance for every sex. It may not be realistic,but in a sci-fi,realism doesn't really come first.

[NICKjnp]

But it is supposed to be based on our own universe....so the sic-fi so okay argument doesn't make sense here. And the they could be bi because they didn't say they weren't doesn't hold any argument. The lack of evidence is not evidence. It is simply the lack of evidence. We base our assumptions about these characters on what is presented. Only Liara Kelly and Liara are presented as bisexual...all the other characters are heterosexual in ME 1&2 because they only romance the opposite sex.

[NICKjnp]

That didn't add to the discussion at all.

[Reever]

NICKjnp wrote...

People do change...but their sexuality does not. Sexuality is something someone is born with. Certain parts of the male brain is actually wired differently between a straight male and a gay male. True bisexuals are much less common than people on these forums like to realize. They often mistake a bisexual person's sexual attraction to their emotional attraction. Most bisexuals are attracted physically to both genders but emotionally to only one gender....because the male and female psyche are different (and that is a scientific fact). Furthermore it is much more likely for a bisexual person to be female than it is male. So if it previous characters become bisexual in ME3 then it is going to be fanservice (and poorly done fanservice) because in the previous two games they were presented as heterosexual.

(sorry to barge in so suddelny, but I wanted to share my opinion as well )

There is also the possibility you can find your true sexuality when you´re older, because all the years before you wanted to conform yourself to society ( a counter argument could be that the MEUniverse is much more open, but we don´t have any information on it.)

And as for the psyche, how can you know how the alien one functions? They are aliens, so your argument shouldn´t be applicable (but yeah, I know, they resemble us enough, because if they were too alien, the game would be unplayable Still, that would be a good in-game explanation...)

Modifié par BlueDemonX, 26 août 2011 - 02:13 .

[NICKjnp]

Actually I'm arguing against all the characters becoming bisexual...not just the alien characters. But if their psyche is different then so be it...but we know a great deal about the human psyche.

[Sundance31us]

jreezy wrote...
I've seen that word "retcon" too many times in a number of threads.

Ah yes "fanservice", we have dismissed that claim. I see that word too much as well.