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[Ryzaki]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

Time4Tiddy wrote...

jreezy wrote...

To be a little technical, Female Shep and Liara is not a same sex romance.

Actually, it is.  The Asari are not genderless, they are mono-gendered.  They are all female.  The codex says this time and time again.  Finding them attractive means finding females attractive, regardless of the fact that there are no males of that species.  

Not to mention it's specifically brought up in game when Kaidan says "I didn't realize you were into other women."  Bioware backpedaled after all the sideboob nonsense, but that doesn't erase the IN-GAME evidence from the codex and character dialogue.

To the Asari, gender is a foreign concept. Though the term "monogendered" dosen't necessarily establish them as either male nor female, with the codex (the source of all knowledge) only ever mentioning their likeness to females. I believe in the line after the one you've quoted Kaidan on, Liara exposes this inter-species misconception. The only reason they're addressed as female is because they appear that way.

Of course it's very superficial, and if we take a step back it's obviously an excuse to include S/S and keep people happy with technicalities. I call it an SS romance in my mind, but from an ingame, immersed perspective I'm mistaken.

Going back to the codex, in my mind it's clear backpedaling on the part of the writers.  In ME1, the codex says "all-female race" then in ME2 the codex says "appearing female."  Also, the line from Kaidan is during a side conversation with him if you are romancing both him and Liara at the same time.  I just point it out because if they really had intended Asari not to be female, Shep's response would have been something like:

"I didn't know you were into other women."
"Liara is not a woman."

But we can go round and round on this as has already been done countless times.  Just one more thing to consider:

If a straight man sees a tranny on the street who looks exactly like a woman, and finds her attractive, does that mean he is actually gay or bi since the person he is seeing is technically a man?

I can't believe I have to point this out but woman =/= female

Woman = female HUMAN

Liara'snot a human therefore it's impossible for her to be a woman. 

Not impossible for her to be female. 

[Arik7]

Ryzaki wrote...

Time4Tiddy wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

Time4Tiddy wrote...

jreezy wrote...

To be a little technical, Female Shep and Liara is not a same sex romance.

Actually, it is.  The Asari are not genderless, they are mono-gendered.  They are all female.  The codex says this time and time again.  Finding them attractive means finding females attractive, regardless of the fact that there are no males of that species.  

Not to mention it's specifically brought up in game when Kaidan says "I didn't realize you were into other women."  Bioware backpedaled after all the sideboob nonsense, but that doesn't erase the IN-GAME evidence from the codex and character dialogue.

To the Asari, gender is a foreign concept. Though the term "monogendered" dosen't necessarily establish them as either male nor female, with the codex (the source of all knowledge) only ever mentioning their likeness to females. I believe in the line after the one you've quoted Kaidan on, Liara exposes this inter-species misconception. The only reason they're addressed as female is because they appear that way.

Of course it's very superficial, and if we take a step back it's obviously an excuse to include S/S and keep people happy with technicalities. I call it an SS romance in my mind, but from an ingame, immersed perspective I'm mistaken.

Going back to the codex, in my mind it's clear backpedaling on the part of the writers.  In ME1, the codex says "all-female race" then in ME2 the codex says "appearing female."  Also, the line from Kaidan is during a side conversation with him if you are romancing both him and Liara at the same time.  I just point it out because if they really had intended Asari not to be female, Shep's response would have been something like:

"I didn't know you were into other women."
"Liara is not a woman."

But we can go round and round on this as has already been done countless times.  Just one more thing to consider:

If a straight man sees a tranny on the street who looks exactly like a woman, and finds her attractive, does that mean he is actually gay or bi since the person he is seeing is technically a man?

I can't believe I have to point this out but woman =/= female

Woman = female HUMAN

Liara'snot a human therefore it's impossible for her to be a woman. 

Not impossible for her to be female. 

Oh God, not this again.   It doesn't matter what the "Assari believe".  From a human perspective, the shape of Asari's bodies, their voices, mannerisms, and even their names are female.   If a woman is attracted to that, she cannot be straight,,,,

[Killjoy Cutter]

The fact that we're looking at an entirely different species kinda complicates the whole thing.

[Arik7]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The fact that we're looking at an entirely different species kinda complicates the whole thing.

It's really not that complicated..... If you have eyes and ears, it should be clear to you that the Asari are female and nothing but female.

[jeweledleah]

I want you to guess which one of these 2 is a male and which one is a female.

[shepskisaac]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The fact that we're looking at an entirely different species kinda complicates the whole thing.

No it doesn't, because what we look at looks like:

There's nothing complicated here. This is what straight/bi guys and bi/lesbian women are biologically programmed to be attracted to.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arik7 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The fact that we're looking at an entirely different species kinda complicates the whole thing.

It's really not that complicated..... If you have eyes and ears, it should be clear to you that the Asari are female and nothing but female.

From a human point of view, yes. 

Before contact with other intelligent species, they fulfilled both sexual roles, not just female.   Sometimes, they still do.

[Radahldo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The fact that we're looking at an entirely different species kinda complicates the whole thing.

It's really not that complicated..... If you have eyes and ears, it should be clear to you that the Asari are female and nothing but female.

From a human point of view, yes. 

Before contact with other intelligent species, they fulfilled both sexual roles, not just female.   Sometimes, they still do.

but look at them

[Killjoy Cutter]

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The fact that we're looking at an entirely different species kinda complicates the whole thing.

No it doesn't, because what we look at looks like:

{pic snipped}

There's nothing complicated here. This is what straight/bi guys and bi/lesbian women are biologically programmed to be attracted to.

Except, of course, that what you're looking at there is an entirely different species... 

[Radahldo]

jeweledleah wrote...

I want you to guess which one of these 2 is a male and which one is a female.

It's not polite to 'guess'.    That's also a rather complicated situation. Really, gender in mass effect has hardly been potrayed, and likely wont be this complicated
the asari are a entire species of idealized female strippers
Has anyone really ever looked at an asari and went "hey, that looks like an idealized female body, but im not sure, cause its  a diff species"
why does it always have to go on tangents like this when asari are brought up

Modifié par Radahldo, 28 août 2011 - 11:15 .

[shepskisaac]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Except, of course, that what you're looking at there is an entirely different species... 

That posesses all the characteristics mother nature programmed straight/bi men & bi/lesbiam women of our own species to be attracted to. Period.

[jeweledleah]

looking like a female=/=female. for all we know they are hermaphrodites.

granted - if you are attracted to something that looks female and you are yourself a female? then you are probably either gay or bi. BUT this has little to do with actual sex/gender of the person you are looking at. there are she-males that look more feminine then actual women. there are females that for all intents and purposes look like males. first visual impressions can be deceiving.

[Radahldo]

But that doesnt exactly relate to asari, its not like the game will ever bring up gender to this extent

they have a stage of their lives dedicated to being strippers
How are we supposed to have some sort discussion on gender identity when they are like this?
It's clearly not that thought out and we are always lead to perceive them as female

Modifié par Radahldo, 28 août 2011 - 11:27 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Except, of course, that what you're looking at there is an entirely different species... 

That posesses all the characteristics mother nature programmed straight/bi men & bi/lesbiam women of our own species to be attracted to. Period.

Perhaps you are confusing what they appear to be to a human, and whatever it is that they are. 

"Male" and "female" aren't roles or perceptions, they're sets of biological / reproductive characteristics. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Radahldo wrote...
Has anyone really ever looked at an asari and went "hey, that looks like an idealized female body, but im not sure, cause its  a diff species"

*raises hand*

[Killjoy Cutter]

Radahldo wrote...

But that doesnt exactly relate to asari, its not like the game will ever bring up gender to this extent

they have a stage of their lives dedicated to being strippers
How are we supposed to have some sort discussion on gender identity when they are like this?
It's clearly not that thought out and we are always lead to perceive them as female

They don't actually have a stage of their lives dedicated to being strippers. 

Holy cow people.  Pay a little attention.

[jeweledleah]

Radahldo wrote...

But that doesnt exactly relate to asari, its not like the game will ever bring up gender to this extent

they have an stage of their lives dedicated to being strippers
How are we supposed to have some sort discussion on gender identity when they are like this?

its mostly an argument of semantics.  Asari, as I've noticed so far assume both gender roles depending on their personalities and aptitudes.  they look feminine.  but we don't know if they are in fact definitively female.  its not about their gender identity but rather physical sexual characteristics.  they are monogendered.  but that could mean a lot of different things.  difinitively claiming that they are in fact female and not just looking like a human female?  untill we see an anotomical drawing of an asari, complete with internal organs and descriptions of reproductive processes, beyond very vague "they meld with the father species nervous systems and replicate/randomize DNA information" - we just don't know.

but like I said - this is not the same as saying that asari/female human relationships are not lesbian.  because for a human in question?  they most likely are  (even if its:  "its ok, becasue its with you" )

[shepskisaac]

Sigh... AS IF we would be having these "ohh it totally doesn't count as s/s with Asari wink wink" discussions had they looked like this:

[jeweledleah]

what they SHOULD have looked like is this

[shepskisaac]

nvm misread

Yes, they should've looked andrygonous (even more so than Tilda since I consider her to be still feminine). But we all know why they don't.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 août 2011 - 11:44 .

[Arik7]

IsaacShep wrote...

Sigh... AS IF we would be having these "ohh it totally doesn't count as s/s with Asari wink wink" discussions had they looked like this:

As a gay man, I wish Asari would look like that..... and there wouldn't be anything "gay" about M!Shep romancing such an Asari, right? ;-)

[Radahldo]

It would've been great if they patterned them after Swinton
Not even making her look alien, just buying the rights to her image and using it as is

Modifié par Radahldo, 28 août 2011 - 11:44 .

[ScotGaymer]

The whole "Asari dont count as SS" arguement fails for one simple reason.

Lore all on its own blasts that arguement out of the water.

If the Asari were a no gendered or gender neutral species then it wouldnt count as SS for FemShep to be attracted to them. However they are established in lore as an ALL FEMALE gendered species.
This means that they ARE female in the terms that WE know a female to be.

Therefore it might not be "lesbianism" for the Asari as they can be attracted to everything (pansexual?) it certainly is a lesbian relationship from the human perspective. It definately makes FemShep a Lesbian or Bisexual.
Therefore it DOES count as SS.

No amount of quibbling over the details will change that inescapable fact.

[Ophiskc]