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[Pollyanna]

Luigitornado wrote...

All bisexual crew = not fun.

All bisexual crew = not happening.

[Killjoy Cutter]

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
it was to do with you having a motive to see an SS precedent set in ME... 

Sweetheart, I've got Kelly for that, don't need Asari as 100% canon s/s to have a s/s precedent in ME

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Well, since you felt the need to make it personal by linking to my profile and implying that I'm raising counterpoints because I don't want an SS precedent set in ME...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
My FemSheps always seem to end up with Thane.  If it weren't firmly established that Tali is straight, I could see that combination, but it has been established.

Ohh look so I was right it's personal for you.You may not be raising counterpoints to neglect all s/s in ME, but hell yeah you're raising "this is alien so it doesn't work this way" counterpoints to explain why Tali can't be bisexual. You do have something against s/s romances just as I thought. And the best part? You bring Tali as your proof. TALI. The original "I've been hiding my feelings for you Shep" LI in the ME franchise.

I see you conveniently snipped the part about my FemHawkes in DA2 always ending up with Merrill, and not having a problem with it at all. 

As for Tali... is it MaleShep, or FemShep, that Tali will go beyond the suit-linking discussion with?   I could see Tali ending up with FemShep if it were't for that simple fact, but we've already seen Tali have a different relationship, reaction, and stopping point with FemShep.  There's your establishment of straight-Tali right there.  

On the Asari front, it's this simple "Asari's got boobs, so femShep can be lesbian" equation that has me saying "Wait, back up, it's not that simple."

Just to be clear and blunt, if your FemShep digs girls, that's cool, no issues. 

But this "Everyone's bi now!" crap, I'm going to argue against that right to the very end. 

[shepskisaac]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I see you conveniently snipped the part about my FemHawkes in DA2 always ending up with Merrill, and not having a problem with it at all. 

The point was where you have problems with s/s romances, not where you don't have.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
As for Tali... is it MaleShep, or FemShep, that Tali will go beyond the suit-linking discussion with?   I could see Tali ending up with FemShep if it were't for that simple fact, but we've already seen Tali have a different relationship, reaction, and stopping point with FemShep.  There's your establishment of straight-Tali right there.  

No. That's an establishement that she didn't purse a romance with FemShep. She could have a reason for that. She already had one for MaleShep, why not for FemShep too? She's the one who set the precedence for 'reasons not to romance immediately', she may as well have a new reason written for FemShep, just as she had it written for MaleShep.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
On the Asari front, it's this simple "Asari's got boobs, so femShep can be lesbian" equation that has me saying "Wait, back up, it's not that simple."

Yes it is from the human perspective. Shep is human, the players are humans. That's what matters here.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
But this "Everyone's bi now!" crap, I'm going to argue against that right to the very end.

No one's saying this. People are saying that any of them could be bi if that's BioWare intention and they make this or that old LI to be available for s/s romance in ME3. If Garrus & Miranda are the ones to be available as s/s romances in ME3, it won't be unrealistic. If it happens to be Jacob & Tali, it won't be unrealistic either. Neither would it be if happened to be Ashley & Thane. Get our point now? We're not arguing 'everyone has to be bi and it is totally a fact they all are'. We're arguing that it won't matter which 2 (or less or more) characters are "selected" to be available for s/s romance in ME3.

[KawaiiKatie]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

As for Tali... is it MaleShep, or FemShep, that Tali will go beyond the suit-linking discussion with?   I could see Tali ending up with FemShep if it were't for that simple fact, but we've already seen Tali have a different relationship, reaction, and stopping point with FemShep.  There's your establishment of straight-Tali right there.

I'm not sure why femShep would be aware of (over even care about) what Tali did with manShep in someone else's game. In femShep's game, all she knows is that Tali got embarassed about the subject and dropped it. Tali never rejected femShep, never said, "Sorry, I only like men!" or anything of the sort, so no, Tali's heterosexuality was never "established." Just because she didn't pursue a relationship with femShep at the time doesn't mean that it would be impossible or unreasonable for her to have a romantic relationship with femShep in the future.

[Killjoy Cutter]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

As for Tali... is it MaleShep, or FemShep, that Tali will go beyond the suit-linking discussion with?   I could see Tali ending up with FemShep if it were't for that simple fact, but we've already seen Tali have a different relationship, reaction, and stopping point with FemShep.  There's your establishment of straight-Tali right there.

I'm not sure why femShep would be aware of (over even care about) what Tali did with manShep in someone else's game. In femShep's game, all she knows is that Tali got embarassed about the subject and dropped it. Tali never rejected femShep, never said, "Sorry, I only like men!" or anything of the sort, so no, Tali's heterosexuality was never "established." Just because she didn't pursue a relationship with femShep at the time doesn't mean that it would be impossible or unreasonable for her to have a romantic relationship with femShep in the future.

This is like defending the contrived clock-that-isn't in Zaeed's loyalty mission by saying "only what happens in each individual playthrough counts". 

We have more information than a single character within the setting has.  We know the difference between how a playthrough for MaleShep can go, and how it goes with FemShep, when it comes to Tali. 

[KawaiiKatie]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

This is like defending the contrived clock-that-isn't in Zaeed's loyalty mission by saying "only what happens in each individual playthrough counts".

Um... yes?

We have more information than a single character within the setting has.  We know the difference between how a playthrough for MaleShep can go, and how it goes with FemShep, when it comes to Tali.

Metagaming aside, I again maintain that unless Tali specifically said to femShep, "I only like men. Too bad you don't have a penis, because if you did, I'd be into you" then no, I don't see how Tali treated manShep in a different game somehow "established" her as heterosexual in everyone's game. We don't know what Tali's thoughts are on homosexuality--all we know is that she didn't choose to pursue a relationship with femShep at the particular moment in time. Perhaps Quarians approach male and female romantic partners differently, perhaps Tali misread femShep's "body language"--she canonically downloads the education vid, "Human Courtship and Mating," and "Understanding Body Language:Human Edition,"
even if Shepard is female.

In short, there are a myriad of reasons why Tali could have chosen that moment to pursue male Shepard but not female Shepard, and not all of them are strictly, "Tali is heterosexual."

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 29 août 2011 - 06:59 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I see you conveniently snipped the part about my FemHawkes in DA2 always ending up with Merrill, and not having a problem with it at all. 

The point was where you have problems with s/s romances, not where you don't have.

The point was that it's not the S/S that I object to, it's S/S that runs counter to pre-established character, and people seeing clear and simple S/S relationships where they might not be. 

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
As for Tali... is it MaleShep, or FemShep, that Tali will go beyond the suit-linking discussion with?   I could see Tali ending up with FemShep if it were't for that simple fact, but we've already seen Tali have a different relationship, reaction, and stopping point with FemShep.  There's your establishment of straight-Tali right there.  

No. That's an establishement that she didn't purse a romance with FemShep. She could have a reason for that. She already had one for MaleShep, why not for FemShep too? She's the one who set the precedence for 'reasons not to romance immediately', she may as well have a new reason written for FemShep, just as she had it written for MaleShep.

So, why does Tali act differently with Shep depending on Shep's sex?  We see her reasons for hesitating to romance MaleShep, but not anything additional for not FemShep. 

That said, if it was very well written, I wouldn't throw the game against the wall or think it was a violation of the character for Tali to have been physically attracted to FemShep too.  But it would have to be well written and not contrived. 

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
On the Asari front, it's this simple "Asari's got boobs, so femShep can be lesbian" equation that has me saying "Wait, back up, it's not that simple."

Yes it is from the human perspective. Shep is human, the players are humans. That's what matters here.

The rest of the facts of the thing also matter, at least to me. 

It is possible, I'd say, for a human to be attracted to an Asari who'd never be attracted to a human woman.  People are a lot more complicated than that.

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
But this "Everyone's bi now!" crap, I'm going to argue against that right to the very end.

No one's saying this. People are saying that any of them could be bi if that's BioWare intention and they make this or that old LI to be available for s/s romance in ME3. If Garrus & Miranda are the ones to be available as s/s romances in ME3, it won't be unrealistic. If it happens to be Jacob & Tali, it won't be unrealistic either. Neither would it be if happened to be Ashley & Thane. Get our point now? We're not arguing 'everyone has to be bi and it is totally a fact they all are'. We're arguing that it won't matter which 2 (or less or more) characters are "selected" to be available for s/s romance in ME3.

I'd say you'd really be pushing it with most of them, given what's already been shown. 

But I'm just looking at this as a writer, a player, and a fan of the game. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 29 août 2011 - 07:09 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

This is like defending the contrived clock-that-isn't in Zaeed's loyalty mission by saying "only what happens in each individual playthrough counts".

Um... yes?

We have more information than a single character within the setting has.  We know the difference between how a playthrough for MaleShep can go, and how it goes with FemShep, when it comes to Tali.

Metagaming aside, I again maintain that unless Tali specifically said to femShep, "I only like men. Too bad you don't have a penis, because if you did, I'd be into you" then no, I don't see how Tali treated manShep in a different game somehow "established" her as heterosexual in everyone's game. We don't know what Tali's thoughts are on homosexuality--all we know is that she didn't choose to pursue a relationship with femShep at the particular moment in time. Perhaps Quarians approach male and female romantic partners differently, perhaps Tali misread femShep's "body language"--she canonically downloads the education vid, "Human Courtship and Mating," and "Understanding Body Language:Human Edition,"
even if Shepard is female.

In short, there are a myriad of reasons why Tali could have chosen that moment to pursue male Shepard but not female Shepard, and not all of them are strictly, "Tali is heterosexual."

It's not metagaming to look at how the storyline and character differ based on the situation.

It doesn't mean that Tali could never be bi.  It does mean that there's a higher bar for a bi Tali now. 

[shepskisaac]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It is possible, I'd say, for a human to be attracted to an Asari who'd never be attracted to a human woman.  People are a lot more complicated than that.

No, people are not that complicated. If a man or a woman is attracted to blue boobs, she will be attracted to black, yellow & white boobs as well. There's body painting our in our own modern culture and painting boobs blue doesn't change the fact they are still boobs and the picture of naked blue-painted boobs will still be more or less stimulating for straight/bi guys & bi/lesbian women.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I'd say you'd really be pushing it with most of them, given what's already been shown.

Considering we already have Garrus and his "I'm not even attracted to you but I'm gonna sleep with you regardless", the ultimate pushing it has already been done so anything else would be more realistic.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 29 août 2011 - 07:23 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It is possible, I'd say, for a human to be attracted to an Asari who'd never be attracted to a human woman.  People are a lot more complicated than that.

No, people are not that complicated. If a man or a woman is attracted to blue boobs, she will be attracted to black, yellow & white boobs as well. There's body painting our in our own modern culture and painting boobs blue doesn't change the fact they are still boobs and the picture of naked blue-painted boobs will still be more or less stimulating for straight/bi guys & bi/lesbian women.

Human sexuality is more complex and complicated than that. 

Someone might be attracted to Asari because they're aliens, or because they have a "telepathy fetish". 

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I'd say you'd really be pushing it with most of them, given what's already been shown.

Considering we already have Garrus and his "I'm not even attracted to you but I'm gonna sleep with you regardless", the ultimate pushing it has already been done so anything else would be more realistic.

Sometimes people end up together without a lot of physical lust, and the physical side of the relationship comes out of the affection, not the other way around.  You don't even have to look beyond human beings in real life for that. 


EDIT:  And then again, a FemShep that's with Liara could be bi or lesbian and attracted to the seemingly-human-female-characteristics...

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 29 août 2011 - 08:22 .

[shepskisaac]

jreezy wrote...

Liara and FemShep is not S/S, no matter what humans think it is.

But that's the point. To the players and to humans it IS a s/s relationship. Kaidan says it himself lol. And there's an option for Shep to say "but you're a woman!". The human perspective matters in ME romances. You play as a human, you are human.

And once again, let's not pretend as if all the guys here would be saying the same thing (or actually romancing as MaleSheps) had Asari looked like men. Right.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Human sexuality is more complex and complicated than that. 

Someone might be attracted to Asari because they're aliens, or because they have a "telepathy fetish".

Sometimes people end up together without a lot of physical lust, and the physical side of the relationship comes out of the affection, not the other way around.  You don't even have to look beyond human beings in real life for that.

But there's a difference between no sexual/physical lust which Garrus admits and small/little lust.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 29 août 2011 - 08:59 .

[Luigitornado]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

All bisexual crew = not fun.

Good thing no one is asking for that, right?

Implied by the community as a whole.

I want _____ as a s/s romance.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I think the only person who will never be brought up as an I want them as a s/s option is Jacob. I think fshep coming on strong to the poor guy really made people just want him gone too bad.

So while I'm on here again and the pages just keep on going for BWs referance....

Fine with brandnew characters like Vega, Shailla, or the like being s/s options

But I'm against all past LIs being made into s/s options.

[shepskisaac]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

So while I'm on here again and the pages just keep on going for BWs referance....

So while I'm on here again I will just remind BW that you're a Talimancer and against old characters being available for new romances which makes you a pure, blatant H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 août 2011 - 03:15 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Feel free to disagree but name calling isn't necessary. If you can't support why you think they should be made into s/s LIs and posting slander is all you've got left you probably shouldn't post.

As others have pointed out there was clear effort on BWs part to make characters perceived by shep differently in their worlds Mshep's play through was set up for him to be friends with Garrus and love Tali the opposite occurred for fshep. The cut off points were done on purpose to show that in each shep's respective worlds there are clear differences in relationships so making them suddenly hot for s/s shep for 3 goes against what is established in 2. It's like taking Mordin and making him want shep when he clearly says he doesn't want shep or making Samara change her mind she was adamant in 2 she would not give in. Establishing cookie cutter romances this far in is not a win for anybody.

[SirGladiator]

I don't know how many folks at this point still haven't played at all as FemShep, but for those who haven't, yes its quite obvious that Tali is interested in her, all the romantic and sentimental comments are there, on that planet where you rescue her, at the Fleet, etc. just the same as it is for maleshep players, its really great stuff, some of the best and most moving parts of the game for me. She even propositions FemShep the same as maleshep, its just that FemShep players dont get the opportunity to accept. Hopefully that opportunity will come in ME3. The idea that Tali is 'straight' is completely fine and as accurate as you want it to be, so long as you're playing as maleshep. When you play as FemShep, not so much . Tali is in love with Shepard, whoever Shepard might be.

[Comsky159]

SirGladiator wrote...

I don't know how many folks at this point still haven't played at all as FemShep, but for those who haven't, yes its quite obvious that Tali is interested in her, all the romantic and sentimental comments are there, on that planet where you rescue her, at the Fleet, etc. just the same as it is for maleshep players, its really great stuff, some of the best and most moving parts of the game for me. She even propositions FemShep the same as maleshep, its just that FemShep players dont get the opportunity to accept. Hopefully that opportunity will come in ME3. The idea that Tali is 'straight' is completely fine and as accurate as you want it to be, so long as you're playing as maleshep. When you play as FemShep, not so much . Tali is in love with Shepard, whoever Shepard might be.

Seems a canonically and structurally senseless idea to me I'm afraid. Can't help but wonder why Tali wouldn't have actually approached femshep simultaneously if she was oriented that way? And then how could they justify it? A xenophilic "coming out of the closet" subplot? She was "especially" nervous with femshep? This isn't a soap opera.

I wish I could be as laid back about the whole consistency aspect of video game narrative, but I find it difficult to depart from the old, sturdy constructs of old literature and so I feel I must oppose. If you, like me, stood back and examined ME from an unimmersed, author/developer centred perspective then you'll conclude that Bioware wouldn't have made it so much more difficult for themselves by proposing a new romance option for Tali after they already went through the trouble of adding it in ME2.

Starting with a blank slate in ME1 , adding a romance option in ME2, then, upon this sketched and coloured slate changing her orientation in ME3, is excessive. I doubt it will be possible for me to accept character development in this case, keeping in mind this is a fairly traditional, archetypical (yet exceptionally so) sci-fi epic. There are limitations to my suspension of disbelief, and I am not particularly able in this alternative "creation of belief" (product of agency and immersion) some of you are capable of. I envy your ability to depart traditionalist literary perception and theory.

However, whether I'm behind in the times or not I still have to follow my gut and say no to an S/S alteration for Tali. Sorry if I haven't explained it particularly well but I've already constructed a few posts in this thread of similar content.

[Zkyire]

Tali has been through the exact same things with Male Shepard as she has with Female Shepard.

Yet she shows sexual attraction to Male Shepard but no sexual attraction to Female Shepard.

I have to ask, under what terms are you defining heterosexuality?

I'm heterosexual.

I'm interested in women.

But by logic of some people here, I'm not heterosexual because I never came out and told people "Hey dude, I'm only interested in chicks, pass it on bro".

That's exactly what you guys are doing for Tali.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 30 août 2011 - 01:14 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Feel free to disagree but name calling isn't necessary. If you can't support why you think they should be made into s/s LIs and posting slander is all you've got left you probably shouldn't post.

As others have pointed out there was clear effort on BWs part to make characters perceived by shep differently in their worlds Mshep's play through was set up for him to be friends with Garrus and love Tali the opposite occurred for fshep. The cut off points were done on purpose to show that in each shep's respective worlds there are clear differences in relationships so making them suddenly hot for s/s shep for 3 goes against what is established in 2. It's like taking Mordin and making him want shep when he clearly says he doesn't want shep or making Samara change her mind she was adamant in 2 she would not give in. Establishing cookie cutter romances this far in is not a win for anybody.

Well said. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Tali has been through the exact same things with Male Shepard as she has with Female Shepard.

Yet she shows sexual attraction to Male Shepard but no sexual attraction to Female Shepard.

I have to ask, under what terms are you defining heterosexuality?

I'm heterosexual.

I'm interested in women.

But by logic of some people here, I'm not heterosexual because I never came out and told people "Hey dude, I'm only interested in chicks, pass it on bro".

That's exactly what you guys are doing for Tali.

That's pretty much what it's come to. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

SirGladiator wrote...

I don't know how many folks at this point still haven't played at all as FemShep, but for those who haven't, yes its quite obvious that Tali is interested in her, all the romantic and sentimental comments are there, on that planet where you rescue her, at the Fleet, etc. just the same as it is for maleshep players, its really great stuff, some of the best and most moving parts of the game for me. She even propositions FemShep the same as maleshep, its just that FemShep players dont get the opportunity to accept. Hopefully that opportunity will come in ME3. The idea that Tali is 'straight' is completely fine and as accurate as you want it to be, so long as you're playing as maleshep. When you play as FemShep, not so much . Tali is in love with Shepard, whoever Shepard might be.

Or, Tali's comment about linking suits isn't a pass at FemShep.  She says she TRUSTS Shep that much, not that she LOVES Shep that much.  Her embarrased reaction could just as easily be because she realizes that it sounded like it was a pass. 

Nothing she says on Haestrom means she's in love with Shep.

[Russalka]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Tali has been through the exact same things with Male Shepard as she has with Female Shepard.

Yet she shows sexual attraction to Male Shepard but no sexual attraction to Female Shepard.

I have to ask, under what terms are you defining heterosexuality?

I'm heterosexual.

I'm interested in women.

But by logic of some people here, I'm not heterosexual because I never came out and told people "Hey dude, I'm only interested in chicks, pass it on bro".

That's exactly what you guys are doing for Tali.

It's not the implication that you are not heterosexual when having not mentioned it, it is the fact that we do not know your sexual orientation. We can assume things all we want, but you have the final say on it.

And the writers have a final say on what the characters can or can't be. All that some people are saying is that we do not know what specific sexual preferences characters have, and the path is open for many things.

Both sides have valid reasons. If some people can't see them suddenly coming out, then fine. If some people can, then that's fine too. Accept that there are many possiblities and nothing is definite.

Modifié par Russalka, 30 août 2011 - 02:25 .