997 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Feel free to disagree but name calling isn't necessary. If you can't support why you think they should be made into s/s LIs and posting slander is all you've got left you probably shouldn't post.

As others have pointed out there was clear effort on BWs part to make characters perceived by shep differently in their worlds Mshep's play through was set up for him to be friends with Garrus and love Tali the opposite occurred for fshep. The cut off points were done on purpose to show that in each shep's respective worlds there are clear differences in relationships so making them suddenly hot for s/s shep for 3 goes against what is established in 2. It's like taking Mordin and making him want shep when he clearly says he doesn't want shep or making Samara change her mind she was adamant in 2 she would not give in. Establishing cookie cutter romances this far in is not a win for anybody.

This isn't name calling, this is simply truth. Look in the mirror and for once in your life be enough of a man to admit it. It doesn't mattter how many times you repeat that BioWare cut off conversation points with Tali & Garrus on purpouse. It won't change the fact that it is only your interprtetation that you use because it suits you. Your needs have been already served with Tali becoming LI, and you don't give a crap whether it was against what was established in ME1 or whether it was realistic and win for everybody or not. You only care you got what you wanted so now you can ride against what you don't want feeling safe it won't matter what kind of a nonsense you will say because they can't remove Tali romance from ME2 at this point anyway. And that's what you do always do. People have discussed this subject with you countless times, and you ALWAYS ignore their arguments. You come into threads and repeat your "ohh noes no s/s!" argument and then dissappear, ignoring everything that's said in a thread, unless you happen to agree with it, then you will quote it. So don't tell me or anyone else what should we be doing and how should we support & express our arguments because ain't no one's gonna be dancing how you feel like. You've proved countless times you're not interested in any discussion and you're completly deaf to any arguments, you act as if they weren't even posted. In the beginning I was responding to your arguments, but then I saw you never respond to anything what I or anyone else who are pro-s/s write. So yeah, I stopped bothering and I will continue to post what a hypocrite you are everytime you do it again.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 août 2011 - 03:25 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

But are you not yourself interpreting said scenarios in the light of they could secretly want shep? You do the same the option was wanted for s/s options I see no reason why they can't implement that on new characters and leave the old ones as portrayed.

You're making alot of assumptions about me. Why do you feel that having brand new characters for the s/s opinion is some how not good enough? People feel in love with 2's new crew quickly why would it not be the same for brand new 3 s/s ones?

EDIT: About your misguided view on me "ignoring" posts I  actually don't jump in here everyday and sense pages jump several up every time I do I'm not going to troll back through to find people who disagree or agree with me.

I'm not here to make friends. I don't get paid to hash it out. These boards are for opinions if when I'm on the boards I finds someone I wish to quote that's my business my convo is either with them or going along the same thought process.

I don't like most on the board snip what people say down to make it seem like they agree with me when in reality they didn't.  Drag in other people's post from other threads as support or things to counter. I figure you single me out because you really dislike my take on things which is your right to do it's also my right to ignore you if you wish to bash me.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 30 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[shepskisaac]

Destroy Raiden wrote...
But are you not yourself interpreting said scenarios in the light of they could secretly want shep? You do the same

But I'm not a hypocrite. I don't support Kaidan for s/s romance while arguing at the same that Kasumi (for example) shouldn't be made a LI option in ME3. That's the difference between us. You don't understand the utter-simple fact that you're supporting the very original "I've been hiding my feelings for you Shep for whatever reason" character in this franchise while at the same time you argue other characters couldn't possibly do the same just because you don't like it. You contradict yourself.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
You do the same the option was wanted for s/s options I see no reason why they can't implement that on new characters and leave the old ones as portrayed.

You're making alot of assumptions about me. Why do you feel that having brand new characters for the s/s opinion is some how not good enough? People feel in love with 2's new crew quickly why would it not be the same for brand new 3 s/s ones?

And why aren't you saying the same thing about ME2 LIs huh? Why couldn't Tali & Garrus be left as they were portrayed in ME1 huh? Why didn't Talimancers see no reason why BW couldn't implement romances on just new ME2 characters? Do you finally realize what hypocrisy means? Talimancers liked the character of Tali and wanted a romance with her for the same reasons people like Ashley and want a romance with her as female Shepards. Talimancers didn't care for any of the arguments you say right now. YOU don't care for any of your own arguments when it comes to Tali. What more can be said?

Destroy Raiden wrote...
EDIT: About your misguided view on me "ignoring" posts I  actually don't jump in here everyday and sense pages jump several up every time I do I'm not going to troll back through to find people who disagree or agree with me.

[...] when I'm on the boards I finds someone I wish to quote that's my business

Yet you jump into every. single. s/s. thread. possible. and it just happens that somehow you're only able to find anti-s/s arguments to agree with. So don't be surprised if people think you're doing it on purpouse.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
I figure you single me out because you really dislike my take on things which is your right to do it's also my right to ignore you if you wish to bash me.

I don't single out you, I say the same thing to every Talimancer I encounter in s/s threads. And there's alot of them. I was pretty amazed when I first clicked on Tali's thread and saw so many familiar 'faces' from s/s threads who vividly argued shortly before how they don't want old characters for new romances.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 août 2011 - 08:25 .

[lazuli]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I think the only person who will never be brought up as an I want them as a s/s option is Jacob. I think fshep coming on strong to the poor guy really made people just want him gone too bad.

I'll stop in and prove you wrong.  SS Jacob in ME3, please.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I say all past LI shouldn't be made into s/s options sense Kasumi isn't an option period I'm obviously not talking about her. She however is another bad example on the bases that in game it already establishes she is hot for Jacob and while she could come out of that state it would take work on BWs part not to make her like of Mshep not seem like a fanservice issue yet it would still be a retcon because she shows clear want towards Jacob.

A better option for somene to be s/s who is a non LI is Joker while I don't agree he should be made into one the fact is he has kept shep at arms length showing a little friendliness yet no romance tones to him so if he comes up in 3 as wanting to try to be with shep he has experience character development.

There is no contradiction on Tali w/ mshep because she in Me like Joker (still does) was not given any defining role, that changed in 2 where she stayed friends only with fshep and revealed a second meaning to o/s linking suits. Rann establishes how Quarians view f/f linking suits. If Tali was to be a s/s option 2 would've been the right time for it sense she already revealed to mshep having a redo of feelings for fshep when she was portrayed in 2 as sister, friend, ect is a retcon not character development it is a line most people have recognized the line and accept it. Samara too drew a line with her relationship with shep she said I won't give into you if she does in 3 it's a retcon unless she stops being a Justicar and starts some new life then and only then would she have a character development because she's dropped the code that kept her single.

As far as Tali/Garrus in the tired why didn't they stay the same from ME -ME2 if they had I wouldn't be on here screaming make them LI for me. I was surprised they made them into LI. These two were portrayed as the traditional background sidekicks, they keep shep at arms length and acted as his widipikias on ship, and didn't show either way if they were liking fshep or mshep more, so them turning up LI in 2 is plausible and not fan service.

I've only become aware of the ME day fights for team dextro LI on here I always assumed BW made a call they updated their characters and decided they should allow these two to develop feeling for shep. For instance the rumor of Tali was nice I didn't sit up and go but she was my glossary in ME how could they! She didn't show in ME either way if she was liking either shep that changed in 2 she preferred mshep and wanted to be friends with fshep the lines been drawn now and she's no longer on the fence.

I don't jump into every anti one but unfortunately anti is all middle ground supporters like myself can get filed under. I post in them because BW should know there are other feelings around mine just differ from yours. You hope to convince BW to make a past LI or several past LIs into s/s options I hope BW keeps them on the friend side of s/s shep and the continue the LI with o/s shep like they've already established from 2. I comment on rehash threads alot because it only takes a few days for thread A on huks to get lost so thread B asks a similar question and I'll type my answer again. If they made multiple pro s/s threads on here I'm fairly sure I'd find you on most of them saying how you'd want so and so to be s/s so there is no difference there its only in what we think on the topic that is.


You seem to hold alot of anger on what you label a talimancer. Are you one who feel BW jipped you back in ME of Tali or something? The whole because BW edited things due to time = jipped can be used for everything music, weapons, info, so to me that is a dumb argument and a bad reason to hold a long standing grudge.

I can speak to and engage in convos with pro s/s its just most of the time they don't have topics I wish to expand on or that I wish to add to I also dont' pick that many not into s/s posters to quote either its really about even.

As far as the whole "they don't want old characters for new romances" goes a character not being open for romance in 3 was BWs choice they said so themselves some LI will be romanceable again from the past and others will not for instance I think Liara will be a non romanceable for imports if you didn't romance her in ME or SB then you lost her. However VS may be a romanceable person in 3 for import players because they missed a level. That's what that means.

Tali not being a s/s option isn't related to that. The argument on her not being a s/s option is mainly continuity keeping with her friendship with fshep role BW put in place back in 2. She's no longer neutral on the meter of friend and love like she was back in ME she now has sides in the different worlds. Someone like Joker is neutral and could become an LI like I said not my thing but nothing to say otherwise from him he is now like Tali was in ME he shows nothing towards either shep there was no effort on BWs part to make him a friend only or hint he likes one shep over the other.

Now you have yet to answer my question on why brandnew characters are no good, are less then, or can't be the s/s options for 3?

[Destroy Raiden_]

lazuli wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I think the only person who will never be brought up as an I want them as a s/s option is Jacob. I think fshep coming on strong to the poor guy really made people just want him gone too bad.

I'll stop in and prove you wrong.  SS Jacob in ME3, please.

I think you're the official first Jacob for s/s. But yeah I now stand corrected.

[lazuli]

Destroy Raiden wrote...
I think you're the official first Jacob for s/s. But yeah I now stand corrected.

For the record, I don't think there's any reason to think Jacob is bisexual.  I haven't played Mass Effect Galaxy, though.  For all I know it's rife with bisexual innuendo.

[shepskisaac]

Destroy Raiden wrote...
As far as Tali/Garrus in the tired why didn't they stay the same from ME -ME2 if they had I wouldn't be on here screaming make them LI for me. I was surprised they made them into LI. These two were portrayed as the traditional background sidekicks, they keep shep at arms length and acted as his widipikias on ship, and didn't show either way if they were liking fshep or mshep more, so them turning up LI in 2 is plausible and not fan service.

If it was done on fan request then it IS a fanservice, simple. Note: I say "if" because I'm not BioWare and I don't know if they didn't want to do it on their own, just as they may or may not want to have old LIs available for s/s romance on their own.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
I've only become aware of the ME day fights for team dextro LI on here I always assumed BW made a call they updated their characters and decided they should allow these two to develop feeling for shep.

And why should anyone care about this? The fact you didn't know about it doesn't change the fact Talimancers campaigned as hell to have her be available for LI in ME2. And you eventually learnt it and accepted it and you're loving your Tali romance. Why aren't you asking them things you ask us? Why can't you assume about a possibility BioWare may allow Tali to develop feelings for FemShep in ME3?

Destroy Raiden wrote...
I post in them because BW should know there are other feelings around mine just differ from yours.

And I respond to let BioWare know you're a Talimancer which makes you hypocritical if you're against other characters being available for new romance even if they didn't show interest before, JUST like Tali. Simple.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
If they made multiple pro s/s threads on here I'm fairly sure I'd find you on most of them saying how you'd want so and so to be s/s so there is no difference there its only in what we think on the topic that is.

But I respond to arguments. You don't do it. You disappear and then come back 3 days later to post the same thing and ask the same questions as if people didn't answer you that countless times already (for example why they want s/s roamnces with past characters and not just new ones).

Destroy Raiden wrote...
You seem to hold alot of anger on what you label a talimancer. Are you one who feel BW jipped you back in ME of Tali or something?

I didn't care about Talimancers until I noticed how many of them were hypocrites in s/s threads.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Tali not being a s/s option isn't related to that. The argument on her not being a s/s option is mainly continuity keeping with her friendship with fshep role BW put in place back in 2. She's no longer neutral on the meter of friend and love like she was back in ME she now has sides in the different worlds.

Yes she IS neutral when it comes to FemShep. Once again, you fail to understand a simple thing. Tali romance was created and explained entirely in ME2. Just how her s/s romance could be explained entirely in ME3. In regards to FemShep, there's nothing said that would it impossible to be in love with FemShep in ME3. Everything can be written and explained. Just as they did in ME2, explaining how she was totally in love with ManShep from ME1 but for this and that reason didn't reveal her feelings.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Now you have yet to answer my question on why brandnew characters are no good, are less then, or can't be the s/s options for 3?

The same answer as why Talimancers wanted Tali for LI in ME2 and new characters weren't good enough. Go ask them. Their reasons were good enough, why aren't mine or anyone else's who want some old characters for s/s romance huh? Somehow our desire to have s/s romances with past characters is not as worthy as that of Talimancers?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 août 2011 - 10:41 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Lazuli I  think you're right but sense fshep couldn't' stop hitting on him I gave up! Poor Jacob I hated that I wanted to know him but shep couldn't stop foaming over him!

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 30 août 2011 - 11:08 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

For Issac:

I agree I'm inclined to believe BW writers did plan them already to be LI for 2 the fan vote could've pushed Casey to make it official. People are now using this same logic for 3 we don't know they hope the support will push casey yet again to say go for it.

The only reason I say I didn't vote for the dextro LI is so you stop assuming I did which you do.

2 was the perfect place for if BW wanted them to go s/s they could've we know BW as a company is not shy with s/s pairings they decided to make friend or LI status with each shep. BW chose to do that just like they chose to make mshep straight until they recently retconed him not to be.BW does make strides to have the story play out as the writers wanted it to only fan feed back reroutes it sometimes.

Tali showed a clear lack of interest for fshep and a wanting friendship from her thats why when fshep hits on her she tries to remove herself from the situation if she did want it she would've said so also if BW wanted to hint that Tali might've secretly wanted fshep the SB logs would've been the spot for such a reveal it has her omni tool letters you think her diary wouldn't be there too? They clearly didn't do that.

If you think everyone on Tali's boards are hypocrites thats alot of prejudging on your part you know 2 aspects on opinions they have so you know them all? You sound more jealous then anything. You stop going to the tali board if you can't stand being there so much. For instance I can't stand Miranda but I dont' go to her board then go stalk everyone on it for the sole reason they like her and I don't.

You also take it all too personally people have opinions and you get very mad about that they don't see eye to eye with you so what? Name calling is how you remedy that?

BW can always rewrite their characters like they did for Anders in DA2 but should they? Tali was clearly established as a friend you clearly want to see her as more. She has been given friend status you don't like it hence that is why you're free to post you want her doesn't mean I have to agree with her retcon.

The reason for me why you're wanting them swtiched from friend to LI status for s/s shep is off because they've been established dialogue, social cues given towards mshep like kelly saying tali likes you wasn't extended to fshep on purpose she got the I spoke to your friend tali BW made the decision fshep and Tali are friends for ME2.

Back in ME Tali and shep were commander and book crewmen she was just another girl on the mission BW made no distinction on what she was to shep other then the a living codex that has changed sense 2 going forward people will take note of how friend tali became LI tali and if you think you're getting a headach now wait till the boards blow up over retcon, and BW caved. Then you'll be on the other side defending why BW making her change her mind was great and not bad writing and making sure that whenever BW plans to do a series players can no longer trust what info is presented to them because enough signatures can always change that. Would you want say Ash to turn into the boss for the reapers overnight all because a dedicated group said Ash should be so?

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 30 août 2011 - 11:11 .

[jeweledleah]

lazuli wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...
I think you're the official first Jacob for s/s. But yeah I now stand corrected.

For the record, I don't think there's any reason to think Jacob is bisexual.  I haven't played Mass Effect Galaxy, though.  For all I know it's rife with bisexual innuendo.

there's absolutely no reason to think that any of the characters is bisexual.  Jacob doesn't do innuendo, period, but thing is... personality has NOTHING to do with sexuality. someone being more easy going doesn't mean they are more likely to be bisexual.  someone being reserved doesn't mean they are perfectly straight.  what pisses me off abotu the whole argument is the constant bringing up of the things that do not in any way prove that characters are subtly expressing their repressed urges.  its all interpretation and assumptions.  the only things we know for sure is that previously available LI's are not gay.  we know they are atracted/have potential to be atracted to oposite sex.  we know it becasue they have full fledged romance paths in existance in LIVE game. 

Jacob is not less likely to be bisexual then Kaidan.  in fact - he would be easier to write the romance path for in ME3 then Kaidan.  because Jacob doesn't innitiate the romance, femshep does, so they could actualy write identical romantic paths for fresh ME3 romance without any need for extra explanations and without messing with continuity.  Garrus would be slightly trickier since its interspecies romance, but still not exactly impossibility.  hell they could just add in that Turians when they "let off steam"  let it off with either gender.  thats it.  Tali is tricky becasue she is the one hitting on Shepard and femshep gets completely and obliviously freindzoned.  she is a hero and an inspiration for Tali.. but a platonic one, since her responce to "are you blushing"  is not exactly the same as for maleshep if I remember correctly.

also - I keep trying to say this, and people keep on ignoring it.  previously known character is not the same as previously available LI.  even in case of Anders - he was not available as LI, so there was still more wiggle room.  with existing characters that weren't available for romance - sky is the limit.  becasue ther'es no precedent.  previously available LI's though?  ther's a precedent of o/s releationship and ONLY o/s relationship.  so the writing becomes more challenging.  if you actualy care about continuity.  which bioware doesn't. 

and I have a feeling that any expanding of previously availabel LI's will work just the way I described Jacob's possibility above.  copy pasted dialog with one or 2 words changed here and there.  whether it fits... or doesn't.  hell, bioware did it before, with ammo clips, and armors, and so many other things...  and yes it will dilute the romances.  but most people don't really care, because most people don't have multiple playthroughs.  this will only truly affect people with multiple Shepards who both metagame and roleplay, fanfiction writers that actualy attempt to adhere to game canon.  which are in a minority, but it still doesn't hurt to raise your voice.  becasue you say nothing? you never get anything.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 30 août 2011 - 11:13 .

[shepskisaac]

Destroy Raiden wrote...
I agree I'm inclined to believe BW writers did plan them already to be LI for 2 the fan vote could've pushed Casey to make it official.

I didn't say that, I said it *may* have been like that, or not. I don't know, you don't know, we're not BW. Just as you don't know if maybe making Tali (or other characters) available for s/s romance in 3 wasn't also part of the plan.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
The only reason I say I didn't vote for the dextro LI is so you stop assuming I did which you do.

But you don't question that voting. You've accepted the reults of it and use the benefits of it - Tali's romance. If you accept something, you can't disagree with something that's based on the same arguments later on. That's illogical and hypocritical.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
BW chose to do that just like they chose to make mshep straight until they recently retconed him not to be.

I'm getting very tired of you throwing 'retcon' word to whatever you don't like. If you want to use retcon word, you'll have to use it on Tali just as well. Now explain to all of us, what is this retconning you're talking about when female Shepard has been having lesbian hook-ups and romances since day 1? Aren't ManShep & FemShep suppoused to be the same characters with the same options for players? So if there's an option for FemShep to ba a bisexual woman or a lesbian, there's a legitimate reason for anyone to role-play their ManSheps as bi or gay men. Period.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Tali showed a clear lack of interest for fshep and a wanting friendship from her thats why when fshep hits on her she tries to remove herself from the situation if she did want it she would've said so also if BW wanted to hint that Tali might've secretly wanted fshep the SB logs would've been the spot for such a reveal it has her omni tool letters you think her diary wouldn't be there too? They clearly didn't do that.

Yet she downloads information about having sex with humans, even when you play as a FemShep. SB logs reveals it. And how do you know she doesn't pursue a relationship with FemShep because she's not into girls? It's never said what the reason is. Maybe she's extra shy because FemShep is a woman? Lack of interst in men surely wasn't the reason she didn't pursue a relationship with ManShep in ME1. You don't know it. You only assume the scenario that suits you. For all that's said and written in ME2, BioWare may easily have her be available for s/s romance in ME3.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
If you think everyone on Tali's boards are hypocrites thats alot of prejudging

Now now, I didn't say everyone, don't even try putting words in my mouth I didn't say. I said many, which is simply true. Anyone can compare who posts their negative opinions in s/s threads with who posts in Tali thread.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
BW can always rewrite their characters like they did for Anders in DA2 but should they? Tali was clearly established as a friend you clearly want to see her as more. She has been given friend status you don't like it hence that is why you're free to post you want her doesn't mean I have to agree with her retcon.

And someone could say Tali was clearly established in ME1 as a friend and nothing more and her romance in ME2 was a retcon. What you're gonna say? Furthermore, I can remind you that it's possible to treat Tali so badly in ME1 she should feel nothing but pure hate for Shep, yet suddenly then she's in love with ManShep in ME2? Retcon much? See the point? Any of the arguments you use can be used on Tali.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
The reason for me why you're wanting them swtiched from friend to LI status for s/s shep is off because they've been established dialogue, social cues given towards mshep like kelly saying tali likes you wasn't extended to fshep on purpose she got the I spoke to your friend tali BW made the decision fshep and Tali are friends for ME2.

And someone can say "BioWare made the decision in ME1 to have Tali be just friends with ManShep but then they retconned it into romantic relationship".

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Back in ME Tali and shep were commander and book crewmen she was just another girl on the mission BW made no distinction on what she was to shep other then the a living codex that has changed sense 2 going forward people will take note of how friend tali became LI tali and if you think you're getting a headach now wait till the boards blow up over retcon, and BW caved. Then you'll be on the other side defending why BW making her change her mind was great and not bad writing and making sure that whenever BW plans to do a series players can no longer trust what info is presented to them because enough signatures can always change that.

So, just like Tali in ME2? There was NOTHING indicating she had the slightest feelings for ManShep. Yet you don't argue against that. You don't care whether BioWare caved in with Tali or not. You're happy they did, you use the Tali romance in your game.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Would you want say Ash to turn into the boss for the reapers overnight all because a dedicated group said Ash should be so?

If BioWare agrees with it and sees the request as a good idea, why not? Just because I won't like it? You don't get 1 thing. I don't mind Tali being a LI in ME2. To me, it was written in realistically and really nothing we wouldn't already know from real-life, when people hide their feelings for various reasons. But you're arguing that it was good while having her or another character available for s/s romance with Shep in ME3 would be bad, despite the fact it would be based on the EXACTLY the same reason as Tali - having a reason to hide the feeings. Why in the world do you think like that? Isn't Talimance in ME2 a proof enough for you BioWare can explain new romance option well?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 31 août 2011 - 12:14 .

[shepskisaac]

@jeweledleah Just one thing jeweledleah. You argue (and I agree with it) that you don't want copy + paste o/s into s/s romances. Why is that?

[Zkyire]

IsaacShep wrote...
You don't know it. You only assume the scenario that suits you.

This sums up the entire back and forth between you and Raiden.

[shepskisaac]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

This sums up the entire back and forth between you and Raiden.

Of course, I said it myself we're not BioWare. But the difference is that I don't say that Tali romance sucks, is bad and retcon or whatever in case BioWare didn't plan it earlier. While Raiden says unplanned s/s romance would be just bad and caving in while unplanned Tali romance was totally great and not caving in at all.

[jeweledleah]

IsaacShep wrote...

@jeweledleah Just one thing jeweledleah. You argue (and I agree with it) that you don't want copy + paste o/s into s/s romances. Why is that?

multiple reasons.

I have multiple playthroughs. but for me its not fun to replay the same thing over and over and over exactly the same way.  I like to create different situations, make different choice, play through different romances.  all my Shepards  are custom, all of them have different names, thought out backgrounds and motivations, different personalities.  even when their actions overlap, their motivations don't, so that overlap is only temporary.  and romances or lack of thereoff are the finishing touches on those differences. 

copy paste romance means I get half as much content becasue there's absolutely no incentive for me to try the same romance more then once, there's no insentive to create a different character.  copy paste romance means my already shaky immersion is completely broken and role playing becomes near impossible.  copy/paste romances for characters that supposedly have different dynamic with player character (as it is with most previously available LI's), means they are inconsistent characters from playthrough to playthrough. it means developers and writers don't care enough to flesh out those characters and their motivations, they don't care enough to look back and say - so why did they act this way with a man, and a different way with a woman before, how do we explain it, how do we make it work on a metagame level. it makes it impossible for me to care for them.  it dillutes content.

however - we have a precedent of bioware doing exactly that, copy pasting romances.  in DA2 there are very minor differences between m'hawke and f'hawke.  hell even rivalry and friendship romances still reuse the same dialogue after setting up different intros.  in case of Liara, Kelly and Samara in ME?  aside from one sentence in actual romance with Liara and slight differences in confrontation scene, that is due more to the fact that it involves different characters?  they are identical.  as is Horizon, including giving virtualy identical dialogue to Kaidan and Ashley, regardless of relationship status, allignement and prior in game interactions.  for many people?  that's actualy perfect.  why?  becasue they are not going to replay it and identical content means they are not missing out on anything.  <_<  I forgot where I read that, but majority of the people who buy games don't even finish them.  those that do, rarely play the game more then once.  fans here, on this message boards?  are a great great minority.  and fans like me?  there's even less of us.

but it doesn't make me dislike the situation any less.  but its absolultely NOT cost effective to try and please people like me, and you of all people should understand it.  so bioware will go down the path of least resistance.  and THIS is why I don't want them to convert existing LI's.  because the chances of them NOT copy pasting dialogue are slim to none.  if the dialogue for Ash and Kaidan was less gender specific in ME1, you think they woudln't have implemented it?  they would have, in a heartbeat.  but they didn't write it gender neutral then, they would have had to rewrite a great deal of it to make it work. they will write gender neutral now though, heck read the lifejournal posts by Patrick Weeks, he deliberately tries for gender neutrality as much as possible.  romances are optional content and they already have to deal with 9 existing relationships.  they are going to take the simpler, quicker way out.  its optional content after all.  (hell, Tali in ME2... that was cutting corners like there's no tomorrow - and if you treated Tali badly - you were doing it wrong and its your own fault for her looking like Bella Swan in your playthrough.... and callibrations....sigh...)

I don't have a lot of trust in ME team's plot and lore juggling abilities right now.

[shepskisaac]

@jeweledleah Thanks for response. I generally agree with you although, in the end, I don't get what do you lose even if, let's say, Thane's s/s romance will be very similar to his new o/s romance (since obviously it won't be similer to his previous o/s romance from ME2 as that's a different game). Just an example assuming Thane will have both new s/s and o/s romances along with continuation of the old one. There will still be a romance with him. Is it really better to have no option at all than having not-as-totally-amazing option but still having the option? It's not like the romances in this franchise were incredibly complex, big and whatnot.

And that is of course assuming there will be some characters available for both s/s and new o/s. What if there's none? I can totally see them having Liara available for new romance (both o/s and s/s of course) since she's gonna be in absolutely everyone's game and everyone knows how BW loves her so they won't miss a chance to have her be available as an option for more people to try. But the rest? I'm not so sure. Personally, I for example think it's not very likely there will be a new o/s romance with VS and that their s/s romance (if they get one) will be done mostly for s/s players, to give them more than a single LI choice (Vega & new female) also as some sort of 'making it up' for lack of them in ME1/2, especially when it comes to ManShep.

While you're right cutting corners by making gender neutral romances saves time, writing gender neutral romances is by default harder than writing just one sided romance. So actually, it would be easier for them to just write a continuation of the o/s romance with Ash & Kaidan for example, and then a separate new s/s romance, than write gender-neutral new romance for both Man & FemShep ,especially since there's no need really for new o/s romance with Ash/Kaidan as they already have one. Aside from writing, there would also be a question of cutscenes necessary to be done. As we know from ME1 developement, that was one of the reason they didn't implement s/s romances for Ash/Kaidan. Well, wouldn't the same apply here but in reverse? If they write just s/s romance, they only do 1 sex cutscene, if they write it gender neutral, they would have to do 2 sex cutscenes.

jeweledleah wrote...
heck read the lifejournal posts by Patrick Weeks, he deliberately tries for gender neutrality as much as possible.

This is true however, that was an open question post and he actually wanted opinions from people what they think about gender neutrality and many people mentioned how in some cases/dialogues, gender neutrality is not good and romances were mentioned alot, along with the basic ackowledgement of gender when it's appropirate (like if there's a pregnancy dialogue in a game, it should be different for FemShep due to obvious reasons).

Modifié par IsaacShep, 31 août 2011 - 01:49 .

[jeweledleah]

Isaak - look up DA2 cutscenes sometimes. they are identical for m'hawke and femhawke (which makes Isabela's version look particularly interesting) you don't have to do 2 cutscenes. you can just do one scene that works for both. every single cutscene in ME2 was gender neutral. its easier to write dialogue that's mostly gender neutral then to write 2 separate romantic paths.

again, taking ME2 romances as example... some are more neutral then others. Tali's is pretty gender neutral, including the dashing commander line. I can only assume that they removed it because they didn't have a male counterpart to her (but then again - Jacobmance is actually pretty neutrally written). Liara is 99% gender neutral. writing gender neutral is easier then you'd think, "Commander" and "Shepard" doesn't really imply specific sex and unlike languages like Russian? neither does "you" it doesn't have as much depth though, sadly, but its not all that impossible. I've seen a fantastically done gender neutral Jack/Shepard fanfic and it was done from third person perspective, which is infinitely harder to write gender neutral, because unlike instead of neutral "you" that you'd generally use in a conversation - you now have "he" and "she" and yet, author managed.

what you want is to write ONLY s/s romance and i would absolutely love that in theory, but... you cannot have that with previously available LI's. why? because they were available for o/s romance before, so how the heck aren't they available now? so we're including one smaller group, and excluding larger one? not to mention bisexual characters are more cost effective then writing 2 separate characters. Romances are still too small of an option to write separate LI's. if you were hoping that they would ONLY include new romances fro old LI's for s/s? you are being extremely naive, sorry. they have new players to think of and while there are plenty of people wanting s/s romances they are still the minority among the people who play the games and might use romantic content.

and why does inclusion of an option even if its a bad one bother me? because in a back of my mind I always wonder if it would have been better done if they had just focused on writing a singular path, so that they wouldn't have to word it as neutrally.

[Ryzaki]

Except you just said yourself jeweled it's worded neutrally regardless. Ala Jacob's romance.

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

Except you just said yourself jeweled it's worded neutrally regardless. Ala Jacob's romance.

some are.  not all.  Garrus is relatively neutral, but his intro is not.  Thane and Kaidan are not neutral at all.  Miranda is not very neutral and while Ash is mostly neutral, its still comes across as her flirting with a male.  Jack and Tali in some ways are pretty similar... they almost start out as neutral, but neither of them proposition femshep, only maleshep - and its more apparent with Jack.

so falling back on complete neutrality diminishes the overall quality IMO.  for some romances more then others.  and since they won't add s/s options only(for existing OR new LI's) - copy paste will be happening.  at this point I'm not even expecting too many differences between continuation of a romance and a freshly started one.  maybe couple of sentences culmination in identical affirmations and cutscenes.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
some are.  not all.  Garrus is relatively neutral, but his intro is not.  Thane and Kaidan are not neutral at all.  Miranda is not very neutral and while Ash is mostly neutral, its still comes across as her flirting with a male.  Jack and Tali in some ways are pretty similar... they almost start out as neutral, but neither of them proposition femshep, only maleshep - and its more apparent with Jack.

so falling back on complete neutrality diminishes the overall quality IMO.  for some romances more then others.  and since they won't add s/s options only(for existing OR new LI's) - copy paste will be happening.  at this point I'm not even expecting too many differences between continuation of a romance and a freshly started one.  maybe couple of sentences culmination in identical affirmations and cutscenes.

 

Ah. I see. 
I really don't mind neutrality. I'm more bothered by feeling someone's in love with my PC when he/she has barely expressed interest personally. 

[CuseGirl]

::sigh:: such a touchy subject, in a video game universe...."zOMG, Garrus Vakarian, a fictional character might be gay on a video game console 200 miles away!!! they've messed up the LORE of the game" lmaaaooo....can't believe we're still using the word "lore"......

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...

Isaak - look up DA2 cutscenes sometimes. they are identical for m'hawke and femhawke (which makes Isabela's version look particularly interesting) you don't have to do 2 cutscenes. you can just do one scene that works for both. every single cutscene in ME2 was gender neutral. its easier to write dialogue that's mostly gender neutral then to write 2 separate romantic paths.

Yes but as in case of Ash & Kaidan's s/s romancse, they wanted to do a separate cutscenes, they've said it themselves. So I assume they will want to do it in ME3 too. And yes you're right it's easier to write dialogue that's mostly gender neutral then to write 2 separate romantic paths. But it's also easier to write 1 romance path than gender neutral path for 2.

jeweledleah wrote...
what you want is to write ONLY s/s romance and i would absolutely love that in theory, but... you cannot have that with previously available LI's. why? because they were available for o/s romance before, so how the heck aren't they available now? so we're including one smaller group, and excluding larger one?

But the larger group is not excluded, there already exists an o/s romance for them. That's one. Two, the dynamic is different between o/s and potential s/s. Unless you don't talk at all with the characters (which the games obviously don't assume since all dialogues in ME2 were written under the assumption that you actually talked to them and got to know them etc), then in case of some characters - Ash, Kaidan, Tali or Liara you had to more or less turn them down or signal you're not interested. That's a different situation than in s/s case where there was never any turning down. So one might even see a reason why there should a new o/s romance with anyone who was already available for one, I mean, the option is already there.

jeweledleah wrote...
if you were hoping that they would ONLY include new romances fro old LI's for s/s? you are being extremely naive, sorry. they have new players to think of and while there are plenty of people wanting s/s romances they are still the minority among the people who play the games and might use romantic content.

Yes but there will be the trial for all new players. If they will want Ashley for thei ManSheps, they will be able to set her up as their LI and continue the romance.

[CuseGirl]

Brand new gamers (new to ME-3) might not even be aware of the possibility for a same-sex LI.....if ur not looking a same-sex relationship, ur not going to find one, I dont see why people are so afraid of this.....and dont give me the "well they weren't like that in the beginning" or "well, that means Shep is making them gay, when they shud be gay to their core as written by BioWare". That's nonsense, everything in this is game happens because Shep wills it to be.

You wanna romance Miranda? Get her sister back and say nice stuff to her, she clears the engine room. You want Jack? go blow up Pragia, say nice stuff to her, dont just "fck", do things "right", and wut do u kno, "no more questions". You want Jacob, find the Gernsback. And all of these things are up to you if you feel like doing it.

It's not in the lore that Jack ever goes to Pragia and destroys the compound or that Miranda ever gets her sister to safety. It happened because Shep wanted it to happen. And I see no reason why a gay video gamer can't "want" to have a same-sex LI with any ME squadmate.....All the dialogue they have in this game? Make it happen....