997 replies to this topic

[jeweledleah]

@ Isaac, according to a recent tweet - there won't be a genesis like comic after all. signs point at several default presets instead, ala DA2 imports. and with your scenario - new players or players that started out in ME2 before Genesis, are still excluded. remember, they are trying to attract larger audience with ME3.

separate cutscenes....that was before they did ME2. and DA2. separate cutscene was not the biggest issue though, they would just have to program a male model for the second half of it - dialogue was the biggest issue. ME2 cutscenes work for either gender. DA2 cut scenes are used for either gender. Dialogue is STILL the biggest issue.

if I didn't know better I would almost wonder if you wanted to punish players who prefer o/s relationships for not playing ME1 and/or ME2 (or choosing not to take a romance option in a first game, hoping for a different playthrough in ME3 - there are a few of those in Kaidan thread btw)... unless they wanted s/s relationships.

and again - bioware is not going to write a new relationship that's s/s only. not in ME3 and possibly not in several subsequent games. they are not going to exclude o/s romances.

@everyone else - some of us care about the story and some of us play the game more then once, becasue some of us like to experiment with different options.

Edited by jeweledleah, 31 August 2011 - 03:30 AM.

[Ryzaki]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

At the end of a day, it's just a game. If a character is available for s/s, no big deal, just don't do the romance.

Also this. 

After replaying DAO I can't help but LOL at ME's "romances" (no offense to people who like them) but. Just. Heh. Not something to be worrying about immersion over in my view. 

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

At the end of a day, it's just a game. If a character is available for s/s, no big deal, just don't do the romance.

Also this. 

After replaying DAO I can't help but LOL at ME's "romances" (no offense to people who like them) but. Just. Heh. Not something to be worrying about immersion over in my view. 

aside from super cheesy cutscenes... yeah, those romances are quite a bit better... but they also didn't need to record male/female warden voiceovers. you often get to ask the same question in like 4 different ways, which is cool since it makes for some interesting rp situations, but you still get the same reply from NPC's.  less voice recording=more possibilities for writing dialogue.

ME romances have their charm but they are already diluted as it is.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
aside from super cheesy cutscenes... yeah, those romances are quite a bit better... but they also didn't need to record male/female warden voiceovers. you often get to ask the same question in like 4 different ways, which is cool since it makes for some interesting rp situations, but you still get the same reply from NPC's.  less voice recording=more possibilities for writing dialogue.

ME romances have their charm but they are already diluted as it is.

Yeah cheesy scene was cheesy. Everything else made up for it in spades though. 

My only issue with ME is that there's squat for friendship paths. I'll take DA2's somewhat copy paste romance dialogue any day since I can actually talk to the characters for a decent time without having to bone them or them bringing up "do you wanna romance me?" like I've been hitting on them. The romances aren't good enough to make up for the zero friendships. frankly I find most of the romances painfully annoying (compounded by the NO FRIENDSHIP PATHS). (Just trying to get that out). 

Everyone has different preferences though. 

I'll take copy paste romance dialogue if it means I can get some friendship speech and s/s romances. 

Edited by Ryzaki, 31 August 2011 - 03:42 AM.

[shepskisaac]

[quote]jeweledleah wrote...

@ Isaac, according to a recent tweet - there won't be a genesis like comic after all. signs point at several default presets instead, ala DA2 imports. [/quote]Not really. Casey said it himself in the Game Informer interview that they're doing something similar to the Genesis comic. From the beginning I assumed they've ditched the comic concept, but not the choices generator concept. I mean they've released genesis on the PC & Xbox as well, they know it's used not only by newcomers but also by old players who want to quickly set up a different scenario without having to replay the entire first game. I definitely think there will be choices-generator of some sort in ME3. Most people expect it will be done via the in-game trial hearings dialogues, but it could be done in a video format as well, which would stop and allow you to make choice and then continue the video with the scenario you picked.

[quote]jeweledleah wrote...
and with your scenario - new players or players that started out in ME2 before Genesis, are still excluded. remember, they are trying to attract larger audience with ME3.[/quote]Well if they're trying to attract new players, then these new player don't have a problem of pre-Genesis ME2 right?

[quote]jeweledleah wrote...
ME2 cutscenes work for either gender.[/quote]
They don't. Did you see ManShep & Thane cutscene? ManShep is making out with Thane's nose. In the Garrus headbump cutscene, ManShep's head clips very visibly with Garrus head. It's obvious these scenes were mocapped for FemShep who's shorter than ManShep.

[quote]jeweledleah wrote...
if I didn't know better I would almost wonder if you wanted to punish players who prefer o/s relationships for not playing ME1 and/or ME2 (or choosing not to take a romance option in a first game, hoping for a different playthrough in ME3 - there are a few of those in Kaidan thread btw)... unless they wanted s/s relationships.[/quote]
Ok, this is childish... I can say: If I didn't know better, I would almost wonder if you want to sneakly get an entirenly new 2nd FemShep romance option when you already have one, one that is bigger & richer by default than any s/s option possibly could be at this point. Or I can say: If I didn't know better, I would almost wonder if you want to punish s/s players for happening to be in minority.

I'm saying that there already is an o/s option, I mean, this is just a fact, it is there. I don't even know what can be said more.

[quote]jeweledleah wrote...
and again - bioware is not going to write a new relationship that's s/s only. not in ME3 and possibly not in several subsequent games. they are not going to exclude o/s romances. [/quote]
Actually, they kind of did already. Juhani being one. Of course her dialogues are so gender neutral it works for male Revan, if you assume she's bisexual, but the intention was for exclusive s/s romance. And Sky's s/s romance is very different than his o/s romance, especially the long set-up for it.[/quote]

[Killjoy Cutter]

Of course, Bioware could always just say, in the same matter-of-fact way as "Shep trained as an N7 Marine" and "Shep was already well-known"... "Shep is straight".

[shepskisaac]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Of course, Bioware could always just say, in the same matter-of-fact way as "Shep trained as an N7 Marine" and "Shep was already well-known"... "Shep is straight".

Their problem is that they gave FemShep an option to do it with women, and since ManShep & FemShep are suppoused to be the same character with the same role-playing options and the same pre-defined and non-defined characteristics, they've made it fully justified to roll a gay ManShep and demand content for him. #oop Sorry, they've created this situation themselves by allowing the players to determine FemShep's sexuality. So if they say Shep is straight, it's just illogical.

Edited by IsaacShep, 31 August 2011 - 04:30 AM.

[jeweledleah]

game informer is an older interview. I actually have it in hard copy. the no comic info is the more recent one - here's the link, took me a few minutes to find

http://kotaku.com/58...n-mass-effect-3

as far as cutscenes and clipping? it happens in romance scenes with femshep as well. there's a ridiculous amount of clipping in the game in general. animating a scene though.. adopting already existing animation to a smaller rig is not as difficult as creating separate animations. case in point - DA2 romance scenes.

Isaac, why are you so against new o/s romance in ME3 for previous LI's while wanting the s/s romance with those same LI's? hmm?

I'll give you Juhani as bugged as she was, but they haven't done that since. not... cost... effective... it would especially NOT be cost effecting with character who is dead in more games then he's alive in.

P.S. I personally don't want any new relationships with previously available LI's in ME3 - I'd rather they focus on writing romance continuations only with them. not because I want to punish anyone, but because I want them to stop diluting the romances already. not to mention friendship paths...you however want only one sided new romance with a very specific character.

Edited by jeweledleah, 31 August 2011 - 04:34 AM.

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...
game informer is an older interview. I actually have it in hard copy. the no comic info is the more recent one - here's the link, took me a few minutes to find

http://kotaku.com/58...n-mass-effect-3

Honestly, I don't trust David on this one entirely. And that's assuming nothing was misinterpreted by Kotaku. Mike Gamble himself, who's actually a producer on the game (David is responsible for marketing of all games, not just ME) made a false claim there'll be a special import for dead Sheps. Personally I don't believe there won't be any kind of a choices generator, especially having the trial hearings that couldn't possibly be an easier and more obvious & natural way to implement it.

jeweledleah wrote...
as far as cutscenes and clipping? it happens in romance scenes with femshep as well. there's a ridiculous amount of clipping in the game in general. animating a scene though.. adopting already existing animation to a smaller rig is not as difficult as creating separate animations. case in point - DA2 romance scenes.

Perhaps, but then again they've said it themselves they wanted to create new cutscenes. They did create exclusive cutscenes for all ME2 LIs after all.

jeweledleah wrote...
Isaac, why are you so against new o/s romance in ME3 for previous LI's while wanting the s/s romance with those same LI's? hmm?

jeweledleah, why are so insisting on new o/s while already having one (trilogy spanning at that) and complaining s/s will mess things up? hmm?

jeweledleah wrote...
P.S. I personally don't want any new relationships with previously available LI's in ME3 - I'd rather they focus on writing romance continuations only with them. not because I want to punish anyone, but because I want them to stop diluting the romances already. not to mention friendship paths...

Doesn't JUST s/s in ME3 serve what you want better then? Neutrality for both s/s and new o/s will take even more time than just s/s, you know it (making sure dialogues and cutscenes are gender netural and work in both cases, not to mention extra o/s variables due to the fact there's been turning down situation), yet you argued why there should be new o/s as well.

jeweledleah wrote...
you however want only one sided new romance with a very specific character.

If you want to call me out on selfishness then do it, but remember you're gonna have to do it about yourself too. You don't want any new romances because you want them to focus only & more on the ones you already have. That's also selfish.

[jeweledleah]

I was going to type up a serious response, but I cannot debate with someone in a possession of such a selective hearing. you're like a definition of irony in action.

P.S. your lack of registered games disturbs me.

[Quole]

Damn Colossi. They should cost at least another 200mins.

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...

I was going to type up a serious response, but I cannot debate with someone in a possession of such a selective hearing. you're like a definition of irony in action.

Sigh, not worth even bothering. When someple lacks arguments, just say "ohh you just don't get it" and act as if that's an argument. Go figure. And here I was thinking one can have a discussion with you. But hey, people warned me it wouldn't happen with you so I only have myself to blame.

jeweledleah wrote...
P.S. your lack of registered games disturbs me.

As opposed to you, I only play ME out of the current BioWare/Mythic franchises and since I didn't have a laptop to run it, I played at my brother's house. Do not "worry" sweetheart, I'll be getting a new laptop precisely for ME3 release and along with that my own ME1 & ME2

[jeweledleah]

all right, I'll bite. though not as much as you think I would, I've been learning to restrain certain urges to get personal.

no, adding an extra relationship to existing LI's doesn't fit with what I want, because it still takes away the focus from continuation of the romance. and it WILL be copy pasted with minor intro difference, if it in fact happens - just write gender neutral romance that fits both continuation and new romance. New LI's will most certainly be copy pasted in interest of gender equality and disc space. what makes you think that old LI's will avoid that fate? for optional content?

ME2 cutscenes are much shorter then ME1 cutscenes, there are clipping issues galore, most of them hidden by camerawork. Bioware have gotten better since then, I mean its been years - so again, I bring you DA2 - and while its not the same team - it is the same company and they do share the animations between them (Hawke uses a lot of Shepard's moves). femhawke most certainly doesn't have the same rig as m'hawke - and yet they have learned to adopt - camera angles mostly.

you want a s/s relationship ONLY, for a character that was established to prefer women (oh yes, even bisexual people have their preferences, and assuming kaidan is bisexual, he still pretty obviously showed his preference for femshep, seeing as he's one of the few LI's that initiate the romances), is dead in majority of people's games, dead by default for male shepards that started in ME2, effectively punishing people who didn't happen to play "the right way". oh you want same sex romance? tough luck, you only get one option.. assuming bioware adds more then one m/m relationship in a first place.

and I'm the unreasonable one.

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...
what makes you think that old LI's will avoid that fate? for optional content?

Urhm the fact old romances have a 2-games history? While some lines may be similar/reused, I can't picture how they could possibly copy+paste majority of the dialogues from, for example, existing continued Ashley romance and completly new Ashley s/s romance. I mean, Ash & FemShep didn't even sleep with each other yet lol, and it won't happen during the first or second conversation. That alone makes it different. Ashley has already referred once to the "Ilos night" that never happened with FemShep. Horizon dialogues were short enough to pull it off, they won't be able to do the same when there will be tons of detailed conversations with Ash in ME3. If anything, I would expect them to copy + paste many of the ME1 dialogues into s/s romance in ME3, that I could see. But the continued romance, with all the the history and what not, and even possible cheating scenario, simply has to be too different to copy+paste majorly into s/s scenario (or new o/s scenario).

jeweledleah wrote...
ME2 cutscenes are much shorter then ME1 cutscenes, there are clipping issues galore, most of them hidden by camerawork. Bioware have gotten better since then, I mean its been years - so again, I bring you DA2 - and while its not the same team - it is the same company and they do share the animations between them (Hawke uses a lot of Shepard's moves). femhawke most certainly doesn't have the same rig as m'hawke - and yet they have learned to adopt - camera angles mostly.

But they've used camera angles in ME1 scenes as well, ain't a coincidence it zooms into their faces when they are rolling on the bed. It's not like anyone expects them not to use camera tricks in ME3 as well. And I'm not sure if the cutscenes in ME2 are shorter than the ME1 ones. Miranda cutscenes last like a minute. Jack even has two cutscenes completly different cutscenes. And then there's Kelly and stuff you can do with her, and small Morinth/Samara scenes. To me it seems they wanted to do alot and well, they did.

jeweledleah wrote...
you want a s/s relationship ONLY, for a character that was established to prefer women (oh yes, even bisexual people have their preferences, and assuming kaidan is bisexual, he still pretty obviously showed his preference for femshep, seeing as he's one of the few LI's that initiate the romances), is dead in majority of people's games, dead by default for male shepards that started in ME2, effectively punishing people who didn't happen to play "the right way".

And yet Kaidan remains the most popular choice for male s/s LI. You've seen it around the forums, you've seen the polls. If you venture to LGBT casual or gaming forums that discuss ME franchise, you'll see the same thing, tons of gay players want Kaidan for s/s LI and it's been like that since ME1. And they saved him on Virmire. Not to mention the fact all signs point to the choices generator in ME3, despite what Kotaku reported (which can be interpreted differently) so ain't nobody's gonna have it impossible to romance Kaidan.

jeweledleah wrote...
oh you want same sex romance? tough luck, you only get one option.. assuming bioware adds more then one m/m relationship in a first place.

You're such a sweetheart.

[Dr.MOHCTP]

IsaacShep wrote...
I'm getting very tired of you throwing 'retcon' word to whatever you don't like. If you want to use retcon word, you'll have to use it on Tali just as well. Now explain to all of us, what is this retconning you're talking about when female Shepard has been having lesbian hook-ups and romances since day 1? Aren't ManShep & FemShep suppoused to be the same characters with the same options for players? So if there's an option for FemShep to ba a bisexual woman or a lesbian, there's a legitimate reason for anyone to role-play their ManSheps as bi or gay men. Period.

nope, femShep is female and mShep is a male [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]. and the characters react to them differently.

[shepskisaac]

Dr.MOHCTP wrote...
nope, femShep is female and mShep is a male . and the characters react to them differently.

But if FemShep's sexual orientation wasn't pre-defined by BioWare, then so wasn't ManShep's.

Edited by IsaacShep, 31 August 2011 - 07:10 AM.

[Comsky159]

I sure we can all be a little bit flexible when it comes to these things, this is after all a video game and the main principle of immersion (the creation of belief) applies with limitations given the extent to which narrativity still exists in-game. Ultimately it's possible for Kaidan and Ashley to be acceptable rewrites, even though I will inevitably feel compelled to raise an eyebrow.

To be honest ,my apathy here may be I just don't like them particularly, but for people who are enamored with these characters as they stand this will come as a bit of a blow. Hopefully, if it happens, there's enough space between the first and last game for the quality to escape unscathed but I'm remaining a skeptic. There's no doubt in my mind it will be a patent character adjustment (retcon as an unlikely worst) but depending on how good the writing is it may be bearable. If they do alter Ash/Kaidan, I'll just have to wait for the final product before I can really speculate on quality. Still say it's ridiculously late to do this.

Oh and Garrus and Tali don't really compare imo. Tali in particular seemed like just a walking encyclopedia in ME1, to me it just felt like Bioware was simply colouring in a faint sketch in ME2. K and A on the other hand felt a lot more fleshed out and finalised in the first game. There's less room to move around there.

[jeweledleah]

sigh, of course bsn polls are the surest indicator of the the general public's attitude. hate articles, multiple other forums and bloggers don't count at all. its tons because you want it to be tons.

they can copy paste plenty. they did with friendship/rivalry romances. couple of extra sentences here and there and bam - we're all done. speaking of the night before Ilos. it didn't happen for everyone. some asked them to stay, other asked them to leave, but the game doesn't acknowledge it in ME2. fun ain't it.

they didn't get away with copy paste dialogue on Horizon. all they did as cause players who might have been ambivalent to outright hate the characters.

not everyone played ME1. not everyone has ME1. not everyone will play ME1. or even ME2. not everyone even liked Kaidan even if they did. not every maleshep who saved Kaidan on virmire did it because they are hoping for gay romance.

Bioware currently have 9 unique characters, that were romancable to account for. 9 romance continuations. how many new romances do you think they can possibly add? and they have to add 2 at a time - male and female. the "sweetheart" in that equation is you, not me, I was paraphrasing you.

I'm not against same sex romances in ME3. on the contrary. I'm against limited engagement fan-service that includes only select few fans, while diluting content of other fans and potentially removing content from yet another group of fans. you know which character was there for all 3 games? who is alive in every single playthrough. the character whose sexual orientation is a complete unknown and who has a long history and camaraderie with Shepard? Joker. his relationship with femshep is exactly the same as with maleshep so he would be easier to write. and he's in general a more popular character. or... there are new interesting characters you could get to know. characters who are guaranteed to be there. characters who didn't already show preference for opposite sex.

P.S. and yes, Tali is a retcon, along with heat sinks, different skill sets, genophage changes, true geth, etc. some recons work better then others. the ones that add rather then replace, usually. (retroactive continuity comes is several varieties, in case you didn't know). Garrus btw - isn't a retcon. he wasn't attracted to Shepard in ME1 and he still isn't attracted to Shepard in ME2. he respects and trusts her and he grows to love her, but he wasn't given a crush that exists regardless of whether there's actually a reason for it.

[Nashiktal]

She-Hulk smash!

I approve.

[Killjoy Cutter]

IsaacShep wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Of course, Bioware could always just say, in the same matter-of-fact way as "Shep trained as an N7 Marine" and "Shep was already well-known"... "Shep is straight".

Their problem is that they gave FemShep an option to do it with women, and since ManShep & FemShep are suppoused to be the same character with the same role-playing options and the same pre-defined and non-defined characteristics, they've made it fully justified to roll a gay ManShep and demand content for him. #oop Sorry, they've created this situation themselves by allowing the players to determine FemShep's sexuality. So if they say Shep is straight, it's just illogical.

In ME1 and LotSB, they gave both Sheps the same relationship opportunities with the same NPC. 

[shepskisaac]

jeweledleah wrote...
sigh, of course bsn polls are the surest indicator of the the general public's attitude.

Let's see, BSN polls on FemShep practically duplicated Facebook poll results. But sure, discount them. But how are you gonna discount the amount of Kaidan/mShep fanart huh? Make it disappear?

jeweledleah wrote...
hate articles, multiple other forums and bloggers don't count at all.

Wait, are you bringing up hate articles on Kaidan by people who don't like him at all as a proof some people wouldn't wan't to romance him (as male or female Shepard)? Also, I mentioned other forums in my previous post, so why did you ignore it huh?

jeweledleah wrote...
its tons because you want it to be tons.

No, it simply is tons. You know it, and it makes you extra mad. You visit Kaidan's thread, you know the amount of s/s fan work there is for him, so why do you even try to pretend there isn't? And even if BSN and/or BSN polls are not 100% representative, they're still quite a good indicators of the general trends and are still useful as a proof. What did you bring that could possibly be useful as any sort of a proof of what you claim, other then "no he's not the most popular s/s LI choice because I say so"?

jeweledleah wrote...
not everyone played ME1. not everyone has ME1. not everyone will play ME1. or even ME2. not everyone even liked Kaidan even if they did. not every maleshep who saved Kaidan on virmire did it because they are hoping for gay romance.

The point of this? You want to proof Kaidan isn't and will never be liked by everyone? Well congratulations, point proven. NO character is loved bye everyone. As BioWare said, they don't design these characters to be loved by all, but by some. And once again, everyone will have ME3 with the trial (or whatever will be the choices generator).

jeweledleah wrote...
and he's in general a more popular character.

But he's not a more popular choice for s/s LIs. Simple. As much as you may hate it and as much as it doesn't suit you, that's just how it is and you will have to deal with it.

jeweledleah wrote...
P.S. and yes, Tali is a retcon, along with heat sinks, different skill sets, genophage changes, true geth, etc. some recons work better then others. the ones that add rather then replace, usually. (retroactive continuity comes is several varieties, in case you didn't know). Garrus btw - isn't a retcon. he wasn't attracted to Shepard in ME1 and he still isn't attracted to Shepard in ME2. he respects and trusts her and he grows to love her, but he wasn't given a crush that exists regardless of whether there's actually a reason for it.

If that's what constitutes for a retcon, then "Luke I'm your father" was a retcon as well, along with virtually every sequel and continuation in the history.

Edited by IsaacShep, 31 August 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Quole]

Edited by Quole, 31 August 2011 - 04:55 PM.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

jeweledleah wrote...

P.S. and yes, Tali is a retcon, along with heat sinks, different skill sets, genophage changes, true geth, etc. some recons work better then others. the ones that add rather then replace, usually. (retroactive continuity comes is several varieties, in case you didn't know). Garrus btw - isn't a retcon. he wasn't attracted to Shepard in ME1 and he still isn't attracted to Shepard in ME2. he respects and trusts her and he grows to love her, but he wasn't given a crush that exists regardless of whether there's actually a reason for it.

I don't think Tali and the genophage are really retcons, though. Bioware yanked a Tali romance out of the first game simply by taking out a single step and only left it out because they figured people wouldn't be down with it ("Chicken feet", anyone?). But they also never put in anything to explicity say she wasn't interested, either. They kept her character very enigmatic for a reason, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that there's very little in this game that's "true" canon other than "Reapers are coming, Saren's gone, and a person died on Virmire." They want to keep as little as possible as decisive, and that's not unique to Tali, either. That's why the same sex relationships aren't revolutionary at all. They're not retroactive continuity because almost nothing is continuity other than what the player wants it to be.

Same goes for the genopage, as a matter of fact. Totally open to the player on what to do with it.