997 réponses à ce sujet

[Luigitornado]

The Uncanny wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

No. Making the entire crew bi would be limiting incentives to diversyfying play throughs. I have no problem with having a few s/s romances.

Well that's fine. But my point stands... more options don't limit diversity, they increase it.

Just because you can do one action/storyline/dialogue with both sexes instead of one doesn't mean you have to. You have the choice. And that is the point.

Not everyone wants to play as FShep. Not everyone wants to play as MShep. And nor should they have to.

Less choice-limitations = less insentives to play, which = less diversifcations in play throughs. There would come a point where the player realizes that no of their choices matter if they can all be achieved in the same play through.

[bioticfu]

I fully believe that everyone has the right to be as miserable as everyone else, but lets just keep a few of the characters as primary. Garrus, Tali, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, Ash let them stay the way they are You can have everyone else.


I think it'd be a little Juvenile to allow these characters to be bi. The majority of guys who are gonna play this game are going to be 17-22 and they're going to feed it to their friends to say something like, "DUDE I JUST NAILED TALI AS A CHICK!"

Then there will be those out there who will be using it as Negative energy against the gaming community saying, "EA/bioware is influencing leud and sickening behavior, More and more people are going to be getting sick with STD's because of this."

Which would be false... But we all know how the Media reacts to games *cough* LondonRiotsBeingBlamedOnGTA4 *cough cough*

Does the gay community really want that kind of bad publicity?

Just because you want it, doesn't mean everyone else does. Sure, I'm happy for you that you found your sexual preference in schtooping a guy or girl or jellyfish, whatever... but .... leave something for non-gay gamers to enjoy also without claiming that it's non-equality. I don't want to see Garrus getting seduced by Jacob for his "Priize," or Grunt holding Zaheed tenderly by the engine core keeping one another warm. I dont want to see Tali and Ash working on Ash's "Xenophobia" together.

Keep the characters that admit "swinging that way," that way. Please dont press your personal agenda into character development.



In closing, be proud of who and what you are, but keep it to yourself, I could care less.

hate me

[Rinji the Bearded]

Luigitornado wrote...

Other than a few conversation points, male shepard and female shepard play relativley the same. The largest difference between them -- other than appearence, was romance options.

An entire bi crew is limiting incentives for diversifying play throughs. If you truly believe more options are better and less limitations are better, then I will make the argument that Bioware should scrap the paragon/renegade system, and the class system because their only purpose is to limit the player.

Why can't I be a solider with a combat drone and charge? Why can't I play as a paragon during an entire game, and then renegade-persuade Saren to kill himself? Surley getting ridding ME of such limitations would be a good thing, and increase the amount of play throughs. No?

Playing a femshep in order to romance Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob or Thane is not a limitation that makes femshep who she is.   The romances are optional, and I know several people who haven't romanced anyone up to this point -- and yet they would still have their preferences for manshep or femshep.

Romances do not and should not define Shepard's character.

And I'm still not sure what you're trying to get at.   Are you saying that people only play Femshep in order to romance Kaidan/Garrus/Jacob/Thane, or Manshep to romance Ashley/Miranda/Jack/Tali?  

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 août 2011 - 07:05 .

[Luigitornado]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...
Mass Effect has always been about guiding Shepard. Not you playing as a geenie and choosing what characters are bi and straight based on your own fan-ideals.

It's not just about Shepard. It's about making choices and seeing their reactions as well.

Shepard can't choose someone's sexuality by talking to them. No one can. It's not believable.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 22 août 2011 - 07:05 .

[Luigitornado]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

Other than a few conversation points, male shepard and female shepard play relativley the same. The largest difference between them -- other than appearence, was romance options.

An entire bi crew is limiting incentives for diversifying play throughs. If you truly believe more options are better and less limitations are better, then I will make the argument that Bioware should scrap the paragon/renegade system, and the class system because their only purpose is to limit the player.

Why can't I be a solider with a combat drone and charge? Why can't I play as a paragon during an entire game, and then renegade-persuade Saren to kill himself? Surley getting ridding ME of such limitations would be a good thing, and increase the amount of play throughs. No?

Playing a femshep in order to romance Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob or Thane is not a limitation that makes femshep who she is.   The romances are optional, and I know several people who haven't romanced anyone up to this point -- and yet they would still have their preferences for manshep or femshep.

Romances do not and should not define Shepard's character.

No romances do not define Shepard's character, but it does enhance the diversification of male shepard and female shepard, when there is hardly an differences. 

[EDIT TO YOUR EDIT]
It is one incentive to play as a differing gender, yes. Since ME Bioware has always been about trying to get players to playthrough more than once. You can't do that by not offering incentives for players.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 22 août 2011 - 07:07 .

[Nashiktal]

I still don't understand why Garrus couldn't romance maleshep. Its practically beastiality as it is, and considering how sexual organs (or the lack thereof) work with turians, I don't see why it couldn't happen.

The relationship is based entirely off of respect. (another thing that makes me wonder what turian relationships are like). There is no physical attraction, there is no "love" at least not in the beginning, and the only thing that stopped maleshep from getting some garrus love is that he is incapable of asking from a gameplay design.

We also have to consider how little we actually know about some of these characters. Hearing about one old fling does not mean you know their entire sexual history or orientation.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 22 août 2011 - 07:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Sure, I'm happy for you that you found your sexual preference in schtooping a guy or girl or jellyfish, whatever... but .... leave something for non-gay gamers to enjoy also without claiming that it's non-equality. I don't want to see Garrus getting seduced by Jacob for his "Priize," or Grunt holding Zaheed tenderly by the engine core keeping one another warm. I dont want to see Tali and Ash working on Ash's "Xenophobia" together.

This is biphobic and you can't get around it. There is absolutely no reason why you should have any issues romancing someone who's bisexual.

[Nashiktal]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sure, I'm happy for you that you found your sexual preference in schtooping a guy or girl or jellyfish, whatever... but .... leave something for non-gay gamers to enjoy also without claiming that it's non-equality. I don't want to see Garrus getting seduced by Jacob for his "Priize," or Grunt holding Zaheed tenderly by the engine core keeping one another warm. I dont want to see Tali and Ash working on Ash's "Xenophobia" together.

This is biphobic and you can't get around it. There is absolutely no reason why you should have any issues romancing someone who's bisexual.

Don't forget its a choice, there should be no more ninjamancing (or even coming onto shep if the developers are to be believed) and I doubt the characters are going to flaunt their sexuality. (Although a rainbow garrus would be hilarious)

[Rinji the Bearded]

Luigitornado wrote...

No romances do not define Shepard's character, but it does enhance the diversification of male shepard and female shepard, when there is hardly an differences. 

But you're basically saying that the only reason why someone would play the different Shepards is because of their romance options, which is defining Shepard by their respective romances.

[Zkyire]

The Uncanny wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

I don't want entire bisexual crew because it would limit the diversification between playing as male Shepard and female Shepard. If you want to romance Garus, then play as female Shepard. If you want to romance Tali, then play as male Shepard. The more the genders play alike, the less reason I have for choosing one over the other.

You may argue that getting rid of gender-based romances would just increase the amount of options, and respectively the amount of play throughs, but not for me. With limitatations come more incentives to play as a different gender. And let's be honest, Bioware would put no thought into differing conversation points when having an increased amount of s/s options. Male Shepard romance with Garus, would be exactly the same as the Female Shepard romance with Garus. This whole argument is coming off as being immature demand of some fans; even though some fans who don't want the feature are being immature about it themselves.

Limitations = a good thing that gives us the incentives to diversifying play throughs.

Lolwut?

So allowing same sex relationships is limiting diversity?!?

Hey everyone! Black is white! 

According to research done by HM Treasury and the Department for Trade and Industry (2005) as they were researching possible effects of the (then) new Civil Partnerships Act, they found that around 6% (or about 3.6 million) of the population in the UK was either homosexual or bisexual. Their findings were based on financial records, where they accounted for about 1.5 million homosexuals/bisexuals. And from that they made an estimate of a remaining 2.1 million not in the workforce (those not yet in the workforce, and those already after retiring, those unemployed etc). That's 6%. So if we're talking about being fair in representing homosexuals and bisexuals in games to mimic real life? 6% of the characters should be homosexual or bisexual. Not 20%. Not 50%. But 6%.

Does this represent every area on earth? No. There have been estimates of as high as 15% for places like San Francisco in the US, and there isn't much data at all on homosexual populations from African and Middle Eastern countries.


The point is that if you're talking about fairness, and what is 'deserved' or whatever, then look at real-world  demographics.


..OR everyone can say “It's just a video game and it doesn't matter.” <-which I hope everyone will.


(I had to type this into OpenOffice and then copy it into the message box 'cause my computer keeps freezing half the time when I type in Firefox for some reason).



(Edit:
Having to go back to OpenOffice Writer to edit every message is
starting to annoy me ).

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 22 août 2011 - 07:12 .

[Sundance31us]

Luigitornado wrote...
Shepard can't choose someones sexuality by talking to them. No one can. It's not believable.

As believable as coming back from the dead or turning a homicidal psycho  b*tch into a crying little girl with just a few quick conversations. 

[darkangelvxvx]

o.o

Modifié par darkangelvxvx, 22 août 2011 - 07:11 .

[darkangelvxvx]

o.o

[Luigitornado]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...
Mass Effect has always been about guiding Shepard. Not you playing as a geenie and choosing what characters are bi and straight based on your own fan-ideals.

It's not just about Shepard. It's about making choices and seeing their reactions as well.

Shepard can't choose someones sexuality by talking to them. No one can. It's not believable.

In a game featuring evil space cuttlefish, walking jellyfish, etc., believability about someone's sexuality is an issue?

Because it exists in the reality of the fantasy. Sexuality is already grounded in reality, and having Shepard flirt with the s/s and instantly have them start flirting back is not reality. It's entirley fan-service, and rather boring.

I'd much rather have a character tell me to screw off if I tried to flirt with them (s/s), and then be the end of it.

[Luigitornado]

Sundance31us wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...
Shepard can't choose someones sexuality by talking to them. No one can. It's not believable.

As believable as coming back from the dead or turning a homicidal psycho  b*tch into a crying little girl with just a few quick conversations. 

Yep. 

[Xilizhra]

The point is that if you're talking about fairness, and what is 'deserved' or whatever, then look at real-world demographics.

Your analogy is bad. This is about enjoyment of a video game, not an assessment of sexuality demographics (and do recall that those only apply to humans). The point is for those of all interests ot be able to enjoy it.

[darkangelvxvx]

Doesn't the flirty thing happen with Mordin and he shoots him down?

[Zkyire]

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that if you're talking about fairness, and what is 'deserved' or whatever, then look at real-world demographics.

Your analogy is bad. This is about enjoyment of a video game, not an assessment of sexuality demographics (and do recall that those only apply to humans). The point is for those of all interests ot be able to enjoy it.

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...


..OR everyone can say “It's just a video game and it doesn't matter.” <-which I hope everyone will.

So thanks for ignoring that.

[jlb524]

Luigitornado wrote...
I don't want entire bisexual crew because it would limit the diversification between playing as male Shepard and female Shepard. If you want to romance Garus, then play as female Shepard. If you want to romance Tali, then play as male Shepard. The more the genders play alike, the less reason I have for choosing one over the other.

I personally don't ever want to play as male Shepard, so I don't care about 'diversity between the genders'.  There's nothing wrong with that.  In addition, consider that some people only like playing heterosexual romances while some only do homosexual ones, so the 'all bisexual thing' would be a non-issue here as far as 'lack of motivation to play as the other gender.'  Even if Garrus is available to MaleShep, I bet most would be uncomfortable romancing him with a male so will roll a female for it.

Luigitornado wrote...
You may argue that getting rid of gender-based romances would just increase the amount of options, and respectively the amount of play throughs, but not for me. With limitatations come more incentives to play as a different gender. And let's be honest, Bioware would put no thought into differing conversation points when having an increased amount of s/s options. Male Shepard romance with Garus, would be exactly the same as the Female Shepard romance with Garus. This whole argument is coming off as being immature demand of some fans; even though some fans who don't want the feature are being immature about it themselves.

Limitations = a good thing that gives us the incentives to diversifying play throughs.

Not always and not for everyone.  You speak from your own experience.  For me, these limitations lead to less playthroughs.

So if Garrus was available for both gender of Shepard and you wanted to romance him, you would do so with a male Shepard? 

How is this demand 'immature'?

[Luigitornado]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

No romances do not define Shepard's character, but it does enhance the diversification of male shepard and female shepard, when there is hardly an differences. 

But you're basically saying that the only reason why someone would play the different Shepards is because of their romance options, which is defining Shepard by their respective romances.

It is one the few diversifications between playing as male or female, and it is an incentive to get players to choose to play through as the different gender. 

I really can not get simplier than that. Other than very few conversation points, there is no reason why a player would choose to play as the different gender during their second play through other than to see how the game would change.

[The Uncanny]

Luigitornado wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Well that's fine. But my point stands... more options don't limit diversity, they increase it.

Just because you can do one action/storyline/dialogue with both sexes instead of one doesn't mean you have to. You have the choice. And that is the point.

Not everyone wants to play as FShep. Not everyone wants to play as MShep. And nor should they have to.

Less choice-limitations = less insentives to play, which = less diversifcations in play throughs. There would come a point where the player realizes that no of their choices matter if they can all be achieved in the same play through.

And now we're in danger of going around in circles.

I hardly think this is the single defining factor that makes the game diverse or replayable.

Personally I still think choice is more important in a roleplaying game.

[Sundance31us]

darkangelvxvx wrote...
Doesn't the flirty thing happen with Mordin and he shoots him down?

I had Mordin either flirt/tease my male Shepard.

From the Wiki: http://masseffect.wi...ki/Mordin_Solus

"If Shepard is pursuing a relationship, Mordin will give medical or personal advice, or—if Shepard has no romantic interests aboard the Normandy but frequently speaks to Mordin—tease Shepard by asking if the Commander is attracted to him. Mordin will then decline entering into a relationship, and if Shepard accepts this refusal, Mordin will state "If wanted to try human, would try you." (regardless of Shepard's gender)."