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The Escapist article: "BioWare co-founder says RPG's are becoming less "Relevant"


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#426
Savber100

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Brenon Holmes wrote...

This doesn't really seem ME3 related...?


Well, we're discussing how the development of ME3 is affected by Bioware's current stance towards RPGs. How will a stance like this affect future Bioware titles and make it different from DX:HR and The Witcher 2 etc. It's quite a lively discussion. 

Mister Mida wrote...

If that's even true, they've done a really bad job at it. Whether you want to accept it or not, Bioware these days and for many years is known for RPG. Them saying they want to move away from it will ****** people off. But I'm sure Bioware is thinking of the priiiiizzze.

 

The reason for that is Bioware action games never sold that well. Instead, RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 was where they got all the love and revenue. However ME2 is changing that as we've seen from the past years. Now Bioware is nearing that perfect formula of creating a hybrid that is loved by both sides and sells well. 

#427
littlezack

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Mister Mida wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

It was Bioware's first game which was an action game. Also look at MDK2, a game released right after Baldur's Gate, it was clear that Bioware never wanted to be solely associated with RPGs. 

 Whether you want to accept it or not, Bioware these days and for many years is known for RPG. Them saying they want to move away from it will ****** people off. But I'm sure Bioware is thinking of the priiiiizzze.


Except that's not what he really said. It's less 'we're moving away from RPG' as the 'definition of what constitutes an RPG is becoming broader'.

#428
Mister Mida

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Mesina2 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

If that's even true,


It is a fact that Shattered Steel is Bioware's very first game.

they've done a really bad job at it.


Reviews for it's time said it's pretty good game that is also unique for it's good story, since most games of that kind never even had a story at the time.


I guess it's really hard to imagine I was talking about this:

Savber100 wrote...

...it was clear that Bioware never wanted to be solely associated
with RPGs. 


Mesina2 wrote...

Whether you want to accept it or not, Bioware these days and for many years is known for RPG. Them saying they want to move away from it will ****** people off. But I'm sure Bioware is thinking of the priiiiizzze.


Mass Effect is hybrid of shooter and RPG and is known like that.
And there's lot of douchebags people who claim it's a pure shooter. At least for 2nd and 3rd one.

As far as I've seen, it's known as a hybrid today. And there are also 'douchebags' as you call them calling it still a pure RPG. Not as much as at first, but I remember reading how people called ME2 'the pinnacle of RPG'.

#429
Brenon Holmes

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Savber100 wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

This doesn't really seem ME3 related...?


Well, we're discussing how the development of ME3 is affected by Bioware's current stance towards RPGs. How will a stance like this affect future Bioware titles and make it different from DX:HR and The Witcher 2 etc. It's quite a lively discussion. 


Which is fine... as long as it's at least loosely related to ME3. In depth discussion of DA/DA2 probably doesn't belong here... better to take that stuff offline or to a different forum. :happy:

#430
Rockworm503

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Savber100 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

*Waits for someone to discuss DXHR again*


some stupid game coming out?


lol. 

I understand some people are upset but dissing Deus Ex just makes you kinda look retarded and ignorant, seeing how that the the original is one of the holy grails of great games. Unless you were joking and I totally missed the humor. 


I hear all this talk about it but the first game did nothing for me.
Call me retard all you want but somehow some other game is doing something Bioware isn't so lets talk about it here where it has no relevence whatsoever.

#431
Mister Mida

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littlezack wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

It was Bioware's first game which was an action game. Also look at MDK2, a game released right after Baldur's Gate, it was clear that Bioware never wanted to be solely associated with RPGs. 

 Whether you want to accept it or not, Bioware these days and for many years is known for RPG. Them saying they want to move away from it will ****** people off. But I'm sure Bioware is thinking of the priiiiizzze.


Except that's not what he really said. It's less 'we're moving away from RPG' as the 'definition of what constitutes an RPG is becoming broader'.

I guess it lies in the eye of the beholder.

#432
Mister Mida

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Savber100 wrote...

The reason for that is Bioware action games never sold that well. Instead, RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 was where they got all the love and revenue. However ME2 is changing that as we've seen from the past years. Now Bioware is nearing that perfect formula of creating a hybrid that is loved by both sides and sells well.

Perfect formula, huh? I'll reserve judgement until after I've played DX: HR. And loved by both sides? As far as I see it, they're just switching their demographics to those who don't feel that strongly about either genre.

#433
Rockworm503

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Mister Mida wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

The reason for that is Bioware action games never sold that well. Instead, RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 was where they got all the love and revenue. However ME2 is changing that as we've seen from the past years. Now Bioware is nearing that perfect formula of creating a hybrid that is loved by both sides and sells well.

Perfect formula, huh? I'll reserve judgement until after I've played DX: HR. And loved by both sides? As far as I see it, they're just switching their demographics to those who don't feel that strongly about either genre.


Or... OR... here's a crazy thought... Or maybe Their making a game they want to make!
Its a crazy thought I know.

#434
Dexi

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Lol I laugh at the butthurt diehard RPG fans who consider themselves and RPGs to be some kind of elite.
The size of their butthurtness is so ridiculous it's stupid.

#435
LukaCrosszeria

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A friend of mine who is studying to be a game developer alerted me to this article. He mentioned two currents in the gaming world:
* RPG's are changing to become stories that draw in the player, that's why Hawke was made human and why family was more involved, to make the story more personally compelling
* shooters are the games that sell the most right now

I read what Greg Zeschuk said while keeping that in mind:

"RPGs are and always have been our bread and butter, our heart is there, but at the same time I think -  [...] "The genres are blending right now, you're getting lots and lots of progression and RPG elements in shooters - online persistence and so on."

And:

"It's funny because the RPG in the context of the current world is - well, it's not specifically irrelevant, but it's becoming less relevant in and of itself," he continued. "It's more a function of, 'Hey, this game has a great story.' For us, [it's] having that emotion but also having other great features like combat and persistence of character progression and stuff."

I couldn't help but notice it seems he's talking about a shift from story/RPG with combat as a function to combat with a story/RPG as a function. Maybe because shooters are selling big time and they want a piece of that? It seems a simplistic explanation, I don't know if it's right, but the last paragraph of the article seems to support that:

"It's not hard to see BioWare's changing attitude reflected in its more recent games, particularly Mass Effect, which is not so much an RPG as it is a conversational shooter."

But but but...

http://www.insanebea...uture-of-games/

The writer, Cody, puts it very well (article is from 2010) so I'm going to quote two paragraphs without snipping:

"It is my personal opinion that genre blending could turn out to be a very dangerous practice in the long-term future of video games. It is true that genre blending has produced some of my all-time favorite games, and I think it would be foolish to shun the practice, but it would also be terribly unwise to go forth without any thoughts of the consequences. The next ten years could very well kill off artistic masterpieces like Shadow of the Colossus (The Last Guardian should be a good indicator of things to come) and transform the gaming landscape into portable MMOs where achievements for walking ten steps backwards fuel harmfully addictive “gaming.” I suppose genre blending is more of a symptom of the greater problem, commercialization, but whatevs.

The future of video games is literally being decided as we speak. One could argue that we’ve already seen the systematic elimination of stealth and horror games and RPGs could be up next. The key is for RPG developers to find a way to make their craft commercially viable in a market that lusts after everything that critics of our industry cite when debating the artistic worth of video games. Perhaps genre blending, despite the terrifying potential of its pitfalls, is actually the key to helping this medium ascend to the realm of high art. Maybe the next few years will see a golden ratio of engaging story, visceral gameplay, and immersive worlds that could have never been created within the confines of the rigid genres of the past. Or maybe we’ve already seen that and publishers thought there wasn’t enough multiplayer…"

I think BioWare is moving in the right direction with genre blending, or breaking the confines of rigid genres, because I believe Cody is right when he says it's the key to an engaging story, visceral gameplay, and immersive worlds.

But really, an achievement for switching a map from day to night? Pitfall alert! I really hope BioWare won't go down that road, that they will learn from DA2 and will use the medium of genre blending to ascend that realm of high art and deliver those artistic masterpieces. Let's see what ME3 brings :)

Modifié par LukaCrosszeria, 23 août 2011 - 08:14 .


#436
Kasai666

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Mr.Kusy wrote...

Image IPB

Did nobody see this? Its hilarious. 

#437
LilyasAvalon

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The article is clearly written in a way that would make Bioware look like it's 'betraying' it's fans. It's like one of the first things they teach you in journalism, how to twist the truth to get a juicy story.

I actually agree with him though, the lines of genres have blurred so greatly that a singular game can be classified as multiple genres and there's no such thing as a 'pure' RPG anymore.

Doesn't matter to me either way, I play for story value.

#438
whywhywhywhy

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Rockworm503 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

The reason for that is Bioware action games never sold that well. Instead, RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 was where they got all the love and revenue. However ME2 is changing that as we've seen from the past years. Now Bioware is nearing that perfect formula of creating a hybrid that is loved by both sides and sells well.

Perfect formula, huh? I'll reserve judgement until after I've played DX: HR. And loved by both sides? As far as I see it, they're just switching their demographics to those who don't feel that strongly about either genre.


Or... OR... here's a crazy thought... Or maybe Their making a game they want to make!
Its a crazy thought I know.

But but here's an even crazier thought....  That Doesn't automatically mean I'll still buy it.

#439
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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whywhywhywhy wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

The reason for that is Bioware action games never sold that well. Instead, RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 was where they got all the love and revenue. However ME2 is changing that as we've seen from the past years. Now Bioware is nearing that perfect formula of creating a hybrid that is loved by both sides and sells well.

Perfect formula, huh? I'll reserve judgement until after I've played DX: HR. And loved by both sides? As far as I see it, they're just switching their demographics to those who don't feel that strongly about either genre.


Or... OR... here's a crazy thought... Or maybe Their making a game they want to make!
Its a crazy thought I know.

But but here's an even crazier thought....  That Doesn't automatically mean I'll still buy it.

But you will right? Right!?

#440
Lotion Soronarr

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Savber100 wrote...
The reason for that is Bioware action games never sold that well. Instead, RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 was where they got all the love and revenue. However ME2 is changing that as we've seen from the past years. Now Bioware is nearing that perfect formula of creating a hybrid that is loved by both sides and sells well.



Yeaaahhh.......no.

#441
Arppis

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Savber100 wrote...
The reason for that is Bioware action games never sold that well. Instead, RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 was where they got all the love and revenue. However ME2 is changing that as we've seen from the past years. Now Bioware is nearing that perfect formula of creating a hybrid that is loved by both sides and sells well.



Yeaaahhh.......no.


Ofcourse not, some people are stuck to the past. They can never find a PERFECT formula.

#442
Terror_K

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This pretty much confirms fears and suspicions about the direction BioWare has been going in lately all the more. It seems as time goes on, BioWare are becoming less and less what they once were and more and more a developer I'm starting to lose interest in. I get the feeling ME3 is going to be the last game I buy from them now even more-so. I've had it with the pandering, the lack of integrity and the feeling I'm being pushed aside in favour of new blood. Dragon Age 2 was pretty damn close to the last straw, and now it's hanging on by a thread.

#443
RiouHotaru

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Terror_K wrote...

This pretty much confirms fears and suspicions about the direction BioWare has been going in lately all the more. It seems as time goes on, BioWare are becoming less and less what they once were and more and more a developer I'm starting to lose interest in. I get the feeling ME3 is going to be the last game I buy from them now even more-so. I've had it with the pandering, the lack of integrity and the feeling I'm being pushed aside in favour of new blood. Dragon Age 2 was pretty damn close to the last straw, and now it's hanging on by a thread.


Pandering?
Lack of integrity?

I see NONE of that currently going on.  All Casey is saying is that they're interested less in genre labels and more about making good games.  Which if you ask me is the RIGHT way to go about the process.  The Escapist and others seem to think this means "RPGs aren't relevant" (Which, btw, are words NEVER said directly in the article itself).  What you see as "loss of integrity" is more of "We're moving towards not to be bound by conventional genre labels when it comes to our games."

Why is this somehow a bad thing?

#444
Weiser_Cain

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Arppis wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Savber100 wrote...
The reason for that is Bioware action games never sold that well. Instead, RPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 was where they got all the love and revenue. However ME2 is changing that as we've seen from the past years. Now Bioware is nearing that perfect formula of creating a hybrid that is loved by both sides and sells well.



Yeaaahhh.......no.


Ofcourse not, some people are stuck to the past. They can never find a PERFECT formula.

You only say that because you like action games. Because last time I checked action games have been around for a long time.
The first games I played weren't role playing games they were action games. I had to find RPG's and even though it wasn't popular with my friends at the time (or ever) I kept playing because I like RPG's.

#445
Candidate 88766

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Why do people think this is new for Bioware?

Jade Empire - action RPG
Mass Effect - action RPG
Sonic Chronicles - action RPG
Dragon Age - RPG
Mass Effect 2 - action RPG
Dragon Age 2 - action RPG

In the last 7 years, Bioware has only made one game that can be considered a proper RPG and yet people leap on ME2 like it was a new approach for them. They say they're Bioware fans, but if that were true then they'd be fans of this new style of game Bioware has been making for years - focused on cinematic storytelling and streamlining the outdated RPG features, keeping only those features they feel are relevant to the game they want to make instead of keeping features to meet some kind of checklist.

I really like Bioware games and the fact that they make games the way they want to instead of making the same copy and paste fantasy RPGs that every other RPG developer makes. No, they're not traditional RPGs but that's what makes them good - they're unique.

Anyone that considers themselves to be a Bioware fan should realise that the games they claim to like really aren't proper RPGs, and yet they like them anyway. ME2 is just a continuation of the approach Bioware has been following for years. DA2 wasn't a success because it was a streamlined sequel to an arguably proper RPG, but ME2 was streamlined sequel to a streamlined game and so was in keeping with that style.

Besides, we've already seen that Bioware is improving the RPG stuff they feel is relevant for ME3 - power customization, weapon customization, story interaction, choice and consequences for those choices. That may not be enough for you to consider it a full RPG, but ME1 and ME2 weren't either.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 23 août 2011 - 10:14 .


#446
Weiser_Cain

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

This pretty much confirms fears and suspicions about the direction BioWare has been going in lately all the more. It seems as time goes on, BioWare are becoming less and less what they once were and more and more a developer I'm starting to lose interest in. I get the feeling ME3 is going to be the last game I buy from them now even more-so. I've had it with the pandering, the lack of integrity and the feeling I'm being pushed aside in favour of new blood. Dragon Age 2 was pretty damn close to the last straw, and now it's hanging on by a thread.


Pandering?
Lack of integrity?

I see NONE of that currently going on.  All Casey is saying is that they're interested less in genre labels and more about making good games.  Which if you ask me is the RIGHT way to go about the process.  The Escapist and others seem to think this means "RPGs aren't relevant" (Which, btw, are words NEVER said directly in the article itself).  What you see as "loss of integrity" is more of "We're moving towards not to be bound by conventional genre labels when it comes to our games."

Why is this somehow a bad thing?

Because it's in place of the things that attracted us(well some of us) to the genre.

#447
Icinix

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Sepewrath wrote...

Icinix wrote...
WWIII didn't happen because DA2 went against the Status Quo.
WWIII happened because DA2 was poorly executed.

It must have been, because Origins is a greatly flawed product itself but you wouldn't think so, given the fan response. But when you look that reaction to DA2, its not DA2 is bad game, its "DA2 is not Origins" people can try and claim otherwise, but go look at the Dragon Age boards, read what people say and that is the only message you will get.  People do not like change and its not like thats unique to BSN, but BSN is the place where people try to deny that its the reason their upset. At least Smash Brothers fan say "I don't like Brawl because its not Melee" Its the same with ME2, people are upset that its not ME1, that there was no Saren to chase, that you couldn't carry 50 armors and 80 guns like ME1. People say otherwise when their called on it, but otherwise during their standard complaining, that's all they say.




The issue with that argument is that first of all you're disregarding genuine issues people might have under the banner of its not "DAO or ME1", which, for lack of better wording, in a lot of cases is wrong.
If you go back to earlier threads / boards upon release of DAO and ME1 - you'll see plenty of people complaining about their flaws. The inventory, the lore misses, the bugs, the teeth, the quests, the combat etc and so on.  The thing is I (and many others) complained about those as much as anyone bar perhaps a certain Varenus Luckmann, but still rate DAO as a better game than DA2.  Not because DA2 isn't DAO, but because some of the new things it tries just doesn't work.....but I really want them to run with them and push for more evolution in DA3. Rather than the butcher job of just removing them (like ME1 to ME2).

E.g The time line, the focused city, the unique clothing, the crafting, the friendship / rivalry.  These are big changes that prior to DA2 I was really excited and interested in.  They were not exectured as well as they SHOULD have been,making the whole game feel less than the sum of its parts. Where as DAO, despite heavy flaws in some areas, executed very well and made a game greater than its sum.  Leading me to my current opinion;

DA2 is not as good as DAO because it did not execute well enough to best it.

#448
Candidate 88766

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

This pretty much confirms fears and suspicions about the direction BioWare has been going in lately all the more. It seems as time goes on, BioWare are becoming less and less what they once were and more and more a developer I'm starting to lose interest in. I get the feeling ME3 is going to be the last game I buy from them now even more-so. I've had it with the pandering, the lack of integrity and the feeling I'm being pushed aside in favour of new blood. Dragon Age 2 was pretty damn close to the last straw, and now it's hanging on by a thread.


Pandering?
Lack of integrity?

I see NONE of that currently going on.  All Casey is saying is that they're interested less in genre labels and more about making good games.  Which if you ask me is the RIGHT way to go about the process.  The Escapist and others seem to think this means "RPGs aren't relevant" (Which, btw, are words NEVER said directly in the article itself).  What you see as "loss of integrity" is more of "We're moving towards not to be bound by conventional genre labels when it comes to our games."

Why is this somehow a bad thing?

Exactly. If they feel they can make a better game if they tread off the beaten path and don't follow the same genre checklist everyone else does then thats what they should do. I'd rather have a great game that is difficult to define rather than merely a good game designed to meet every RPG specification.

#449
Weiser_Cain

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Candidate 88766 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

This pretty much confirms fears and suspicions about the direction BioWare has been going in lately all the more. It seems as time goes on, BioWare are becoming less and less what they once were and more and more a developer I'm starting to lose interest in. I get the feeling ME3 is going to be the last game I buy from them now even more-so. I've had it with the pandering, the lack of integrity and the feeling I'm being pushed aside in favour of new blood. Dragon Age 2 was pretty damn close to the last straw, and now it's hanging on by a thread.


Pandering?
Lack of integrity?

I see NONE of that currently going on.  All Casey is saying is that they're interested less in genre labels and more about making good games.  Which if you ask me is the RIGHT way to go about the process.  The Escapist and others seem to think this means "RPGs aren't relevant" (Which, btw, are words NEVER said directly in the article itself).  What you see as "loss of integrity" is more of "We're moving towards not to be bound by conventional genre labels when it comes to our games."

Why is this somehow a bad thing?

Exactly. If they feel they can make a better game if they tread off the beaten path and don't follow the same genre checklist everyone else does then thats what they should do. I'd rather have a great game that is difficult to define rather than merely a good game designed to meet every RPG specification.


Those elements became part of a genre for a reason. Look, you can make an action movie without explosions but you're not giving a good portion of the audience what they thought they were paying for.

#450
Whatever42

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Terror_K wrote...

This pretty much confirms fears and suspicions about the direction BioWare has been going in lately all the more. It seems as time goes on, BioWare are becoming less and less what they once were and more and more a developer I'm starting to lose interest in. I get the feeling ME3 is going to be the last game I buy from them now even more-so. I've had it with the pandering, the lack of integrity and the feeling I'm being pushed aside in favour of new blood. Dragon Age 2 was pretty damn close to the last straw, and now it's hanging on by a thread.


The first part of your paragraph is legit. If you don't like the games then don't buy them. 

Then you get silly. Lack of integrity? How is there a lack of integrity here? How are you being pushed aside? You are a customer of Bioware. If you don't like their direction then I understand but don't be so melodramatic.

Bioware clearly sees themselves as a company where the competitive advantage is writing character and story. Their gameplay has always been a bit meh, a bit old and unpolished. However, as the previous post said, they haven't been sticking to the old tactical tabletop roots of classical CRPG games for a long time now. Personally, I'm ok with that. I understand that you're not but lets not get silly.