528 réponses à ce sujet

[Dionkey]

Il Divo wrote...
Actually, I'd argue that full control is still impossible for combat, since any rules system occupies drastic limitations. I cannot make a Mage Origins character who learns stealth techniques, for example. Many RPGs possess different "levels" of stat-based game mechanics.

Ex: Baldur's Gate possesses more stats to control than does Mass Effect. And some games (Planescape Torment) don't let you change your appearance at all.

Combat in RPGs has always been an abstraction.

While this is true, they usually stay within the bounds of what your character would do and still allows you to expand a bit. You can choose your class so you know what your getting into. The problem with dialogue is that there is no pre-defining characteristic of what your character is going to get to choose between.  

[Walker White]

Savber100 wrote...

I sense a great storm incoming.

That said, I'm fine with Bioware's aim in making a great game without focusing on conventions etc.

But for people to start recognizing this, Bioware needs a new IP that would reflect this. Maybe an L.A. Noire-styled game?

These are not remotely the same.  L. A. Noire has almost no choice in story.  Choice consists of the order in which you take assignments, and the ability to fail an assignment.  That is not choice as much as it is a minigame that consists of adhering to a canonical story.

BioWare games are different.  You can make choices that alter the outcome of the story or the mission without these choices representing failure.  This, at their core, is what makes them RPGs.  Any story based game where deviation from the canonical story is an indication of failure (like L. A. Noire or RDR) is not a role playing game.

[Il Divo]

Dionkey wrote...

While this is true, they usually stay within the bounds of what your character would do and still allows you to expand a bit. You can choose your class so you know what your getting into. The problem with dialogue is that there is no pre-defining characteristic of what your character is going to get to choose between.  

But you just invalidated story-based decisions because you do not have absolutel control over them. Logically speaking, the rules system should follow the same limits.

And what constitues 'what my character would do' is incredibly subjective. Perhaps my Mage is willing to risk dual-wielding longswords, even with a significant penatly to hit, but the game doesn't give me the option. Multi-classing doesn't even exist in Dragon Age.

Modifié par Il Divo, 22 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[Someone With Mass]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Rezources wrote...

If it's not a math formula, I can't enjoy it.

I know right? It's sad that people think this way.

It's also funny how they think that the RPG elements requires some really deep thinking, while it's been burned into people's heads for the last twenty years.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 22 août 2011 - 05:44 .

[Gravity Bun]

What Mr. Hudson said.
A good game is a good game, regardless of genre.
I never thought of the ME games as RPG either, more like some sort of interactive cinematic action adventure.

[Dionkey]

Il Divo wrote...
But you just invalidated story-based decisions because you do not have absolutel control over them. Logically speaking, the rules system should follow the same limits.

And what constitues 'what my character would do' is incredibly subjective. Perhaps my Mage is willing to risk dual-wielding longswords, even with a significant penatly to hit, but the game doesn't give me the option.

There are games out there that let you do that. For example, in ME1 it didn't let you equip certain weapons if you weren't a certain class, but in ME3 you can equip anything regardless of class. If you blended these two, you would have the perfect RPG combination. The thing about story-based decisions is comparable to a king and a god. The king has a lot of power, but is still not a god. Is godhood even attainable? In the case of games, total dialogue freedom is not possible. Total stat freedom is such is also not possible, but it doesn't detract from the role as much as dialogue. If a universe like Mass Effect let you run around with a sword and a dress, I doubt anyone would feel like they're role-playing. Could there be someone out there that does that? Sure, but I think it's best suited to a game that takes itself less seriously.

[Xeniphe]

 We'll always have Japanese RPGs... 

[Savber100]

Walker White wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

I sense a great storm incoming.

That said, I'm fine with Bioware's aim in making a great game without focusing on conventions etc.

But for people to start recognizing this, Bioware needs a new IP that would reflect this. Maybe an L.A. Noire-styled game?

These are not remotely the same.  L. A. Noire has almost no choice in story.  Choice consists of the order in which you take assignments, and the ability to fail an assignment.  That is not choice as much as it is a minigame that consists of adhering to a canonical story.

BioWare games are different.  You can make choices that alter the outcome of the story or the mission without these choices representing failure.  This, at their core, is what makes them RPGs.  Any story based game where deviation from the canonical story is an indication of failure (like L. A. Noire or RDR) is not a role playing game.

That wasn't my point. 

If Bioware wants to break away from its RPG roots, I'm fine with that. 

But they MUST create a different IP rather than keep changing the original vision of their present IP to achieve it. Otherwise, people would continue to just see Bioware as RPG developers trying desperately appeal to mainstream audiences when they only wanted to broaden their company beyond the RPG crowd. 

So I suggest they start to expand their games to go beyond RPGs and into adventure/action/shooters. Maybe a FPS shooter that's similar to Bioshock? That will be cool. 

[TheConfidenceMan]

[Insert quip about Bioware becoming less relevant.]

[Il Divo]

Dionkey wrote...

There are games out there that let you do that. For example, in ME1 it didn't let you equip certain weapons if you weren't a certain class, but in ME3 you can equip anything regardless of class. If you blended these two, you would have the perfect RPG combination.

Right, but then I could point out a different problem, which prevents stat-based freedom. Multiclassing is not the only limitation to consider. My point is that you are not a God in your ability to control stats.

The thing about story-based decisions is comparable to a king and a god. The king has a lot of power, but is still not a god. Is godhood even attainable? In the case of games, total dialogue freedom is not possible. Total stat freedom is such is also not possible, but it doesn't detract from the role as much as dialogue. If a universe like Mass Effect let you run around with a sword and a dress, I doubt anyone would feel like they're role-playing. Could there be someone out there that does that? Sure, but I think it's best suited to a game that takes itself less seriously.

Games like Planescape Torment completely contradict this, however. Your character had no control over the Nameless One's appearance. Instead, the game offered stat control through the use of tatoo customization, but his physical appearance was always constant (as was his name).  

And both Planescape/Baldur's Gate 1 did not give the player the ability to dual wield. To put the question bluntly: why doesn't complete stat freedom (or its lack) detract from the role? The game makes that arbitrary decision, not the player.

Edit: It just occurred to me that JRPGs are often the same way, since many times character roles/abilities/stats are constant and cannot be modified.

Modifié par Il Divo, 22 août 2011 - 05:49 .

[Arkitekt]

Savber100 wrote...

But they MUST create a different IP rather than keep changing the original vision of their present IP to achieve it.

Please tell us how Bioware should behave. Apparently, they are in a dire need of said advice...

HInt, they "MUST'nt" do anything. They do whatever the hell they want with their IP. And people love it.

Otherwise, people would continue to just see Bioware as RPG developers trying desperately appeal to mainstream audiences when they only wanted to broaden their company beyond the RPG crowd.

I know the kind of people who say these things, and I really couldn't care less about them. It's a ridiculous pettiness.

So I suggest they start to expand their games to go beyond RPGs and into adventure/action/shooters. Maybe a FPS shooter that's similar to Bioshock? That will be cool. 

Who cares? They'll do what they'll do. If I like what they do, I buy their products. If not, tough luck. Apparently there are rumours they will make a MMPORG (damn the categories) after this one using this IP. I'm sure this will blow your head off as well.

[Dionkey]

Il Divo wrote...
Games like Planescape Torment completely contradict this, however. Your character had no control over the Nameless One's appearance. Instead, the game offered stat control through the use of tatoo customization, but his physical appearance was always constant (as was his name).  

And both Planescape/Baldur's Gate 1 did not give the player the ability to dual wield. To put the question bluntly: why doesn't complete stat freedom (or its lack) detract from the role? The game makes that arbitrary decision, not the player.

Edit: It just occurred to me that JRPGs are often the same way, since many times character roles/abilities/stats are constant and cannot be modified.

Stats do not detract from the role because these stats often fit the role and setting that the character plays in. Dialogue is universal and can be applied to any universe with moral delemas.

[iAmLegion2183]

two things I don't miss from ME: the Mako and inventory.

Organising the equipment for my team in ME was an absolute pain, spending 30 minutes changing things around so everybody had the best possible stats... hows that for killing immersion... taking me out of the story to do inventory checks. BORING and UNNECESSARY... I'm glad Casey Hudson isn't concerned with genre conventions and just has the goal of creating a great game.
I love Mass Effect for its story, and player choices.

Modifié par iAmLegion2183, 22 août 2011 - 05:59 .

[Candidate 88766]

Gravity Bun wrote...

What Mr. Hudson said.
A good game is a good game, regardless of genre.
I never thought of the ME games as RPG either, more like some sort of interactive cinematic action adventure.

I think thats what they were going for. Mass Effect is meant to feel like an interactive sci-fi movie - hence the cinematic dialogue style, the grain filter, the synthy music (in ME1) and all the little references to classic sci-fi hidden throughout the games. I think both games do pretty well at this - they both feel like 80s sci-fi movies, with all the neon-lights, often flashy costumes and over-the-top main storyline (hero goes off on a galactic adventure to stop an aincent evil) - and that s part of the charm. They also manage to address some serious topics within them as well, making them even better.

But arguing over whether these games fit your definition of what an RPG is seems pretty pointless - everyone is already set in their point of view, but whatever they feel pretty much everyone here can agree that ME1 was fantastic - not because of the RPG features, but because of the story. I really like ME2's story as well, but there is some disagreement on the forum about it. My point is, deciding whether the ME games are traditional RPGs is pointless because its not the RPG features that we love about them - its the story, the characters, the music, the atmosphere; all things that are not exclusive to RPGs. 

Besides, Bioware's approach to the Mass Effect games is not new for them. They haven't made a proper RPG for 8 years, and even games like KotOR were beginning to show the strong focus on cinematic storytelling ahead of meeting genre stereotypes.

[Someone With Mass]

What's so wrong with appealing to more people, anyway?

They'll make more money that way.

[Dionkey]

Someone With Mass wrote...

What's so wrong with appealing to more people, anyway?

They'll make more money that way.

Nothing, but I don't think it's fair to change a genre because it needs to appeal to more people. Why not just call it a TPS Action game? I don't know why everyone insists on defending it's title of being an RPG.

[Il Divo]

Dionkey wrote...

Stats do not detract from the role because these stats often fit the role and setting that the character plays in. Dialogue is universal and can be applied to any universe with moral delemas.

I disagree. You're still making an arbitrary decision. Stats are preset because developers don't have the resources to develop every potential scenario a player can think of. Why (for example) can Mages only wield staves, not daggers? Why can't a Mage in Origins learn stealth? Both are possibilities in Dungeons and Dragons, which are completely ignored in Dragon Age. This applies to any scenario. "Fit the role" is still a subjective determination.

Modifié par Il Divo, 22 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[iAmLegion2183]

Someone With Mass wrote...

What's so wrong with appealing to more people, anyway?

They'll make more money that way.

Yeah in theory, if they are more successful they'll get a bigger budget for the next game... and create an even better game.

[Dionkey]

Il Divo wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Stats do not detract from the role because these stats often fit the role and setting that the character plays in. Dialogue is universal and can be applied to any universe with moral delemas.

I disagree. You're still making an arbitrary decision. Stats are preset because developers don't have the resources to develop every potential scenario a player can think of. Why (for example) can Mages only wield staves, not daggers? Why can't a Mage in Origins learn stealth? Both are possibilities in Dungeons and Dragons, which are completely ignored in Dragon Age. This applies to any scenario. "Fit the role" is still a subjective determination.

What role do you watn to fit? If you play Mass Effect, you are fitting the role of an Alliance space marine. If we gave him the ability to choose a sword or something, it would need to take itself less seriously. Should a mage be able to use stealth? Absolutely, why not? We can say in that respect that Dragon Age is lacking in the RPG department.

[Il Divo]

Someone With Mass wrote...

What's so wrong with appealing to more people, anyway?

They'll make more money that way.

Well, there's nothing wrong, but the decision carries risks. DA2's gameplay system was designed with that in mind and (for better or worse) it's being panned. If handled appropriately, hybrid systems are perfectly fine. But if they play like crap, you're better off going with a single demographic (like Origins does).

[alex90c]

Someone With Mass wrote...

What's so wrong with appealing to more people, anyway?

They'll make more money that way.

Because you get to the point where you're trying to appeal to such a low denominator that you end up pissing off everyone with more than half a brain cell.

[Someone With Mass]

Dionkey wrote...
Nothing, but I don't think it's fair to change a genre because it needs to appeal to more people. Why not just call it a TPS Action game? I don't know why everyone insists on defending it's title of being an RPG.

Why even care what label it has?

[Kusy]

I like this BioWare fanboy orgy of "everything bioware does is gold", please continue.
I'm also sad that I can't see people's faces through the internet, because faces of people who tried to tell everyone else that and why Mass Effect 2 was an RPG reading how Greg Zeschuk calls it (quote) a conversational shooter... that I would like to see.

Bla bla bla, labels are bad, bla bla, we love you, bla bla, take our money.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 22 août 2011 - 06:11 .

[Someone With Mass]

Il Divo wrote...

Well, there's nothing wrong, but the decision carries risks. DA2's gameplay system was designed with that in mind and (for better or worse) it's being panned. If handled appropriately, hybrid systems are perfectly fine. But if they play like crap, you're better off going with a single demographic (like Origins does).

I think they're keeping it fairly consistent with ME3. Not much you can change when it comes to combat there without making it boring and tedious, anyway.