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The Escapist article: "BioWare co-founder says RPG's are becoming less "Relevant"


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#501
Il Divo

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SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Lord Sullivan wrote...

The great Bioware days...

Balder's Gate, Balder's Gate 2 (Even if I'm one of those people that weren't taken by those but am aware that allot of others loved these), Neverwinter Nights...

Afterward it's been pretty much down hill.

They went from Great to alright to so so to WTF!!

Trying to become the "McDonalds" of video game developers. Shame... real shame.


Baldur's Gate 2 is the only game on that list that I would put on par with Bioware's later games. Both BG and NwN are highly over-rated, in my opinion.


I've played Baldur's Gate: 1; I didn't like it. I agree with both of you even the part about BioWare becoming "McDonalds"; although, the amount of success can be debated considering the flop of Dragon Age: 2.


Yeah, I always see BG listed as a 'holy grail' of RPGs, but I don't see why. It was ground-breaking for the time, but really hasn't aged well in my opinion.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 août 2011 - 02:06 .


#502
KenKenpachi

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Il Divo wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Lord Sullivan wrote...

The great Bioware days...

Balder's Gate, Balder's Gate 2 (Even if I'm one of those people that weren't taken by those but am aware that allot of others loved these), Neverwinter Nights...

Afterward it's been pretty much down hill.

They went from Great to alright to so so to WTF!!

Trying to become the "McDonalds" of video game developers. Shame... real shame.


Baldur's Gate 2 is the only game on that list that I would put on par with Bioware's later games. Both BG and NwN are highly over-rated, in my opinion.


I've played Baldur's Gate: 1; I didn't like it. I agree with both of you even the part about BioWare becoming "McDonalds"; although, the amount of success can be debated considering the flop of Dragon Age: 2.


Yeah, I always see BG listed as a 'holy grail' of RPGs, but I don't see why. It was ground-breaking for the time, but really hasn't aged well in my opinion.

Minus the fact those that started out with it are hardly what got bioware to its current status, and are a sub group. I'l wager more of the fans and sells happend on the X-box, and 360 time periods than those early CRPG days.

#503
Il Divo

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KenKenpachi wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Lord Sullivan wrote...

The great Bioware days...

Balder's Gate, Balder's Gate 2 (Even if I'm one of those people that weren't taken by those but am aware that allot of others loved these), Neverwinter Nights...

Afterward it's been pretty much down hill.

They went from Great to alright to so so to WTF!!

Trying to become the "McDonalds" of video game developers. Shame... real shame.


Baldur's Gate 2 is the only game on that list that I would put on par with Bioware's later games. Both BG and NwN are highly over-rated, in my opinion.


I've played Baldur's Gate: 1; I didn't like it. I agree with both of you even the part about BioWare becoming "McDonalds"; although, the amount of success can be debated considering the flop of Dragon Age: 2.


Yeah, I always see BG listed as a 'holy grail' of RPGs, but I don't see why. It was ground-breaking for the time, but really hasn't aged well in my opinion.

Minus the fact those that started out with it are hardly what got bioware to its current status, and are a sub group. I'l wager more of the fans and sells happend on the X-box, and 360 time periods than those early CRPG days.


Yeah, I fall into the Xbox category. My first Bioware game was KotOR after I saw a commercial for it on TV. And I loved it. From then on, I purposely made sure to buy Microsoft consoles, because I never saw Bioware develop for Sony.
 
I actually didn't go back and play Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights until after Mass Effect 2. BG2 aside, I really was not impressed with what I saw. Image IPB

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 août 2011 - 02:18 .


#504
KenKenpachi

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Yeah I know how that is. I am a huge FF7 fan, but I recently tried playing it again...just couldn't, it looked so bad, controlled clunky.. I never made it out of the reactor room. Just couldn't force myself to play it.

Great for the time, but unless it got a MAJOR facelift and mechanic update..its nothing now. I think some here are stuck in the past, and while that may be good for them if Bioware never left BG. It would be bad for us other RPG fans and gaming in general.

#505
Il Divo

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KenKenpachi wrote...

 I think some here are stuck in the past, and while that may be good for them if Bioware never left BG. It would be bad for us other RPG fans and gaming in general.


Agreed.

#506
FlintlockJazz

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Il Divo wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

 I think some here are stuck in the past, and while that may be good for them if Bioware never left BG. It would be bad for us other RPG fans and gaming in general.


Agreed.


Or have you considered that maybe taste is subjective?  I personally have never got the love for MoO or MoO2, does that mean that I think those who love it are stuck in the past?  No, they just have differing tastes to me.  I love the Baldur's Gate games, but I do not expect everyone else to, on the contrary the difference in style between the Infinity and Aurora engine games are so different to Bioware's later games (and to each other) that I would hesitate before recommending games from either era to people who have played the other since they appeal to such different tastes.  I myself consider KotOR the worst Bioware purchase I have ever made, even more horrible than DA2, simply because I consider it bland, insipid and soulless, the only thing I can see that appeals to people being the Star Wars brand on it, and yet I also realise that is my own personal tastes and that it is not in the majority by a long shot.

Which brings us to the true heart of the matter, both you and those who you are hating on are really driven by the same exact thing: the desire to see that the time and effort you have invested in your beliefs has not been a waste of time, and that your worldview has merit.  It's a basic human drive, and if you observe everyday life you see happening all the time, so it's understandable.

#507
bussinrounds

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Exactly. Some people don't need flashy graphics and everything to be fully voice acted. I'll take the depth and d&d license over that stuff easily.

The bestiary alone makes the BG saga better and more interesting for me than the DA one, say. (oh look there goes another darkspawn)

#508
Il Divo

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

Or have you considered that maybe taste is subjective?  I personally have never got the love for MoO or MoO2, does that mean that I think those who love it are stuck in the past?  No, they just have differing tastes to me.  I love the Baldur's Gate games, but I do not expect everyone else to, on the contrary the difference in style between the Infinity and Aurora engine games are so different to Bioware's later games (and to each other) that I would hesitate before recommending games from either era to people who have played the other since they appeal to such different tastes.  I myself consider KotOR the worst Bioware purchase I have ever made, even more horrible than DA2, simply because I consider it bland, insipid and soulless, the only thing I can see that appeals to people being the Star Wars brand on it, and yet I also realise that is my own personal tastes and that it is not in the majority by a long shot.

Which brings us to the true heart of the matter, both you and those who you are hating on are really driven by the same exact thing: the desire to see that the time and effort you have invested in your beliefs has not been a waste of time, and that your worldview has merit.  It's a basic human drive, and if you observe everyday life you see happening all the time, so it's understandable.


Taste certainly is subjective. This is not new to me. Perhaps the phrasing was not the best, but I fully support the idea behind it:

I'm glad Bioware has left the DnD 2.0 era. And I prefer where they are going. I came to Bioware for their story-telling. Neither Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights appealed to me, for that reason.

#509
Il Divo

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bussinrounds wrote...

Exactly. Some people don't need flashy graphics and everything to be fully voice acted. I'll take the depth and d&d license over that stuff easily.

The bestiary alone makes the BG saga better and more interesting for me than the DA one, say. (oh look there goes another darkspawn)


It's not about flashy graphics. I consider Planescape Torment far and above Baldur's Gate 1 (and most Bioware games). I personally find DnD 2.0 boring , but with Planescape I at least had an engaging narrative/characters. In the case of Baldur's Gate, there's much less emphasis on narrative and the gameplay was not to my taste.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 août 2011 - 06:39 .


#510
bussinrounds

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Well i like a good story and characters also, but it's not ALL about that for me. I also appreciate well done encounters and combat too. And to me, modern rpgs really suffer in that aspect.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 26 août 2011 - 07:03 .


#511
Zanallen

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I posted this in a similar thread, but I suppose I'll reiterate: I really don't see what the problem is here. All he is really saying is that the genres are blending and Bioware hopes to make great games with strong stories, fun combat (Or game play mechanics, if you prefer) and a sense of character progression. And since no one can agree as to what the hell an RPG really is, I think his assessment is just fine.

#512
Lord Sullivan

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I'm with bussinrounds on the matter, story is nice to have but I can't live without a very well done game overall. It's all relevant Story, Gameplay mechanics, Well done art style Graphics (Not to confuse with the graphic engine technologies) and well done controls.

The new modernized so called RPG's feel like either an interactive movie or an Arcade game...

weapon trails!! Oh how cool!! /sarcasm

#513
sympathy4saren

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I want to be able to micromanage my character. I want an inventory and I want deep skills based off of statistics. I want to be able to micromanage my character. I want non-linear exploration. I will purchase games that have these. Call them whatever genre you want. Hopefully, along with these stated mechanics, combat will be good and innovative and story will be well written and innovative. I'm also ok with streamlining when I personally feel it is a legitimate attempt to honestly make game play more efficient and coherent without taking a blowtorch to the core roots of a gameplay mechanic.

Mix a game too much with elements I don't like, such as corridor shooting, and I don't care what you call the game's genre. It isn't gameplay I'm interested in. If it was, I would play games that had those gameplay elements.

#514
KenKenpachi

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

Or have you considered that maybe taste is subjective?  I personally have never got the love for MoO or MoO2, does that mean that I think those who love it are stuck in the past?  No, they just have differing tastes to me.  I love the Baldur's Gate games, but I do not expect everyone else to, on the contrary the difference in style between the Infinity and Aurora engine games are so different to Bioware's later games (and to each other) that I would hesitate before recommending games from either era to people who have played the other since they appeal to such different tastes.  I myself consider KotOR the worst Bioware purchase I have ever made, even more horrible than DA2, simply because I consider it bland, insipid and soulless, the only thing I can see that appeals to people being the Star Wars brand on it, and yet I also realise that is my own personal tastes and that it is not in the majority by a long shot.

Which brings us to the true heart of the matter, both you and those who you are hating on are really driven by the same exact thing: the desire to see that the time and effort you have invested in your beliefs has not been a waste of time, and that your worldview has merit.  It's a basic human drive, and if you observe everyday life you see happening all the time, so it's understandable.


Course it is, so in the end who gets what they want? As with the posts below, most of us might not want all of that. So that leads to who is the larger market in which case CRPGers from the D&D set are still on the small end.

In anycase, this just proves my point again from several pages back.  No group of significant size among RPG fans can agree what an RPG is, or what they want in it. In most reguards its silly we say what we like or don't. There are things I might want or not want to see in a bioware game. But I ignore them as I do with others unless it reaches a tipping point.

I was a long time Nintendo Fan boy, and when Nintendo turned to a new base, well  I didn't post on the forum. I didn't make as many tear down ratings for the games as I could, or spread bad press on it. I left. I took my money and found something more of what I like. I mean crap if people who weren't happy with bioware just bought elsewhere or didn't post, half the threads here would be dead.

And yes as a fan you can say what you would like, just like if I open a restruant, you can say so. Like you love Anchoives on your Pizza, but the bulk doesn't....well I'm not buying them just for you. And I don't worry if my views have merit, I'm not above making them have it. And you don't really understand me all that well.

My Motivation in this case is I'm sick of the ****ing and how the massive day one and on purpose bad press toward DA:2 ruined it, its funny that its sales percentage is higher NOW than on release because of that. And I get sick of people that think a group thats built to make money and expand its consumer base owes them anything. It doesn't.And if you don't like the new path (in general not you flint) then why moan? If the stance and position is in your favor...walk. Go, buy something else. If that percentage of gamers is large enough then it will force a change. If its not, your no fighting for a cause you can't win.

But reguardless from a point of view they are right. RPGS have grown so much and into so many markets, with so many mechanics, that the term is useless.

I mean all of these games have been called RPGs, and all of us here would say no, or hate it, or love it, etc, etc. No other gaming community has this problem.

Zelda, D&D, ME:1-2, DA:1-2, BG, FF games, Legend of Dragoon, Super Mario RPG, GTA. The list goes on and on, and yet most of us would scream hersey at a number of these, and most of us even then wouldn't agree on which ones. So with that division you go off of which market is larger.

#515
Terror_K

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Il Divo wrote...

Taste certainly is subjective. This is not new to me. Perhaps the phrasing was not the best, but I fully support the idea behind it:

I'm glad Bioware has left the DnD 2.0 era. And I prefer where they are going. I came to Bioware for their story-telling. Neither Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights appealed to me, for that reason.


NWN definitely has BioWare's weakest narrative and characters, and it didn't help that the main vanilla campaign limited you to one companion at a time, which is a shame because I actually consider NWN to have some of BioWare's best gameplay, customisation, etc. and I generally prefer it to BG1&2 in that regard, but the BG series had far better narrative, characters, companion mechanics (banter, design, romances, etc.). I personally find NWN a bit of a conundrum in that it had (IMO) some of the strongest gameplay mechanics from BioWare, but the weakest narrative/story/characters, which is what BioWare's known for. I think KotOR and DAO have got the closest to nailing both for BioWare, even if there are the odd gameplay issues with both of them too. KotOR is probably BioWare's single greatest achievement, being the true beginning of BioWare's more cinematic and story-driven approach, and also I believe one of the best blends between that and being a proper Action RPGs.

#516
bussinrounds

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KotoR's combat was alot less tactical and way too easy compared to the BG games.

And NWN was more about the toolset, dm client, player created content and MP than the OC.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 27 août 2011 - 09:15 .


#517
Terror_K

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bussinrounds wrote...

KotoR's combat was alot less tactical and way too easy compared to the BG games.

And NWN was more about the toolset, dm client, player created content and MP than the OC.


Well, the thing is, it's impossible for BioWare to do a truly tactical RPG these days when they never end up putting in the things that can really screw a player over if they're ill-prepared. DAO is about as close as they've got lately, but even that completely avoids factors that BG and NWN had like level-drain, poisons and disease, party characters being controled and dominated by enemies, truly harmful traps, ineffective damage types and proper elemental/physical resistance, immunity, etc., companions that can permanently die (i.e. gibbed), having to actually put some effort into character building and even healing, etc.

When they're completely ignoring these factors (or ones like them), they're basically turning their back on deep, tactical RPGs because as it stands their games lately need no thought or effort to succeed from the player. If you weren't prepared or built well in BG or NWN, you were screwed later on, or in certain places or if you advanced too quickly through the main story, etc. You had to be very wary of vampires, liches, demons, dragons, etc. Enemies in later BioWare games either have an obvious trick to them any character can solve or are damage sponges.

Modifié par Terror_K, 27 août 2011 - 10:50 .


#518
bussinrounds

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Terror_K wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

KotoR's combat was alot less tactical and way too easy compared to the BG games.

And NWN was more about the toolset, dm client, player created content and MP than the OC.


Well, the thing is, it's impossible for BioWare to do a truly tactical RPG these days when they never end up putting in the things that can really screw a player over if they're ill-prepared. DAO is about as close as they've got lately, but even that completely avoids factors that BG and NWN had like level-drain, poisons and disease, party characters being controled and dominated by enemies, truly harmful traps, ineffective damage types and proper elemental/physical resistance, immunity, etc., companions that can permanently die (i.e. gibbed), having to actually put some effort into character building and even healing, etc.

When they're completely ignoring these factors (or ones like them), they're basically turning their back on deep, tactical RPGs because as it stands their games lately need no thought or effort to succeed from the player. If you weren't prepared or built well in BG or NWN, you were screwed later on, or in certain places or if you advanced too quickly through the main story, etc. You had to be very wary of vampires, liches, demons, dragons, etc. Enemies in later BioWare games either have an obvious trick to them any character can solve or are damage sponges.

Good post.  I totally agree.  Plus the huge bestairy that the d&d license gave them, lead to more tactical play because they would have different resistances/attacks and such.

#519
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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Lord Sullivan wrote...
The new modernized so called RPG's feel like either an interactive movie or an Arcade game...

weapon trails!! Oh how cool!! /sarcasm

Are interactive movies like chose your own adventure books or something?

#520
Persephone

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jreezy wrote...

Lord Sullivan wrote...
The new modernized so called RPG's feel like either an interactive movie or an Arcade game...

weapon trails!! Oh how cool!! /sarcasm

Are interactive movies like chose your own adventure books or something?


Best example for an Interactive Movie game: Tender Loving Care.

It has NADA in common with anything Bioware has done.

#521
FlintlockJazz

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jreezy wrote...

Lord Sullivan wrote...
The new modernized so called RPG's feel like either an interactive movie or an Arcade game...

weapon trails!! Oh how cool!! /sarcasm

Are interactive movies like chose your own adventure books or something?


This is totally just my opinion and just a thought that I have had buzzing around for a while now, but it came to me that a choose your own adventure book still has more connection between story and 'gameplay' than Bioware's later offerings have had.  They used to straddle the line between JRPGs and WRPGs, but now they seem to have fallen more towards the former where what you actually do in the gameplay isn't reflected in the story and vice versa, for instance Jack would be the prime example: in cutscenes she knocks out mechs with her bare hands and destroys an entire station, yet once she joins the squad she's...meh, same with Garrus who holds off several mercenary gangs yet this is not reflected in the actual gameplay.  Typical JRPG trope.

It's often a case that you have a dialogue section, then a fighty section, then another dialogue section, etc.  Occasionally a choice in a dialogue option might give you another guy to shoot or extra health to a helecopter.  Your character's stats don't affect dialogue (playing DA2 as a mage being the ultimate example), neither does it affect your romance options (which in turn seem to take place in their own vacuum).  I think that's one of the appeals of BG for me: it promised great future potential, that once the technical limitations were removed we would be seeing even greater things, but instead ten years on we have prettier graphics and voice actors and thats it.  Bioware have, in my opinion, focused too much on crafting a 'cinematic experience' and forgotten that they were supposed to be making games, hell half the time I feel like they are only grudgingly giving me any choices in the game, that they would so much prefer it if they didn't have us pesky players making all the 'wrong' choices instead of sticking to the script...

#522
Neverwinter_Knight77

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Anybody who puts down NWN obviously has never gotten attached to the multiplayer community like I did. Seven years. For seven years, I was on NWN every day unless I was on vacation or something. I didn't quit playing until the local vault community was down to zero players.

#523
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

Anybody who puts down NWN obviously has never gotten attached to the multiplayer community like I did. Seven years. For seven years, I was on NWN every day unless I was on vacation or something. I didn't quit playing until the local vault community was down to zero players.



I think NWN was an excellent community based game and still is.

And I also feel that there is nothing of NWN in DA 2.

This worries me a little since Bioware seems to be turning their backs on the player based community.

DA:O had a toolset, where was DA 2's toolset? Are they just after DLC sales now for moving their software? I hope not, Bioware has put out some awesome community tools for their software in the past.

It seems the quality of alot of products from alot of developers has suffered lately. Are any companies still willing to put in the extra effort anymore?

#524
Get Magna Carter

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 as nobody else seems to have mentioned it here, there is a response on Gamasutra that says a lot of what needs to be said

http://www.gamasutra..._of_the_RPG.php

#525
tonnactus

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marshalleck wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Oh for gods sake people, DA2 was disappointing but it wasnt that bad!


Agreed. It was better than ME2, and no, I'm not joking or trolling.


I completly agree.