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The Escapist article: "BioWare co-founder says RPG's are becoming less "Relevant"


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#76
gogman25

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iAmLegion2183 wrote...

Mr.Kusy wrote...

iAmLegion2183 wrote...

RPG labels have a stigma anyway.

imagine this conversation taking place in your typical american high school.

"Dude you gotta play this RPG, it is so cool"
"Dude, I'm not a nerd ****. Get the **** away from me and take your gay ass dragon **** with you. I don't want to be seen with you ever again."


You eighter live in a trully bad neighbourhood or you have trully limited knowledge of the reall world... or what they say about America hits the spot and the country is trully filled with idiots.


Nah I'm just paraphrasing typical responces from CoD fans.  Ever watched the Online Gamer?


It's a damned good thing that Bioware isn't trying to cater to CoD and Gears fans then, right?
Oh wait...

Yes, I will proceed to go outright now and be compeletely ignorant and selfish in many peoples eyes now but I really don't care what people think of me or my opinions.
Bioware have been dumbing down incredibly recently just so they can hit a wider demographic and it simply hurts to watch, removal of the inventory system from Mass Effect 1 which wasn't bad. It wasn't a trouble to manage your groups armour and weapons because you didn't even need to compare numbers, you just needed to compare colours and considering you quickly learned which loot was worse than yours you didn't even need to look.

My powers seemingly decreased in number, my adrenaline rush went out the window as did my push, that shield damaging ability, my grenades (that were useless, actually) my shield bolstering ability.

Instead of choosing between a ton of different armours I get to choose between a series of armour components with very little effect on gameplay (5%+ shields? Oh boy! That's really useful.) and the majority of which looked horrible, not saying that Mass Effect 1 Titan armour wasn't unnattractive, though.

Weaponry wise you're narrowed down to a select number of weapons you want, say what you will but if you say "Use the default submachine gun" and then ask me to use say, the Locust from Kasumi's loyalty I will obviously pick the later option, it was no more interesting than choosing between a weapon with low damage and a high heatsink and a weapon with high damage and low heatsink, only difference was I could sell these weapons to save for a weapon of my choice or make it into Omni-gel, or I could scale up in damage and heatsink 50 points every weapon class upgrade; and it always kept me vigilant for more. Compare this to Mass Effect 2 and it was along the lines of "Go to Omega, do Garrus' loyalty mission, grab rifle - gun for the rest of the game.

Then we look at companions, this new Vega guy...honestly? Can you make him any beefier? He's damned near enough the size of an Atlas now, his armour is so damned thick if he tried to get through a door he'd be taking the frame with him.
And poor Ashley, her hair is undone and long and flowing to the point where she might as well use it to blind the Reapers and her Spectre pay raise was spent on a cat suit and a serious boob job. She's no longer the soldier woman we knew, she's simply another sex appeal toy in Biowares arsenal.

We don't wonder around deserted planets in search of treasure, instead we visit garden worlds where a group of mechs have gotten viruses or gotten bored or a group of mercs were... doing something and we kill them and walk on out.
Missions are just linear bland pathways now, just herding you down a corridor in duck-shoots where you play duck and cover for 3 hours or just keep spamming your charge key and fire key if you're a Vanguard.

What do Bioware consider doing to bring back their fanbase, the ones who consistenly buy their games? "It's the perfect chance to jump in, just like the way when you jump in at the end of a book and say "What the hell is going on, why do I care about this person?" and we understand that, who cares about storyline and character development, there's big splosions and boobies that way! Ahurr durr! Also, we have introduced a new feature: Awesome button, you press a button and something awesome happens, so you don't have to work to become awesome and make that awesome... it happens from start to finish so you get a nice feeling of no progress!"
But since you old fools who don't understand what a good game is...we'll just toss you some horribly butchered characters from Mass Effect 1...give you...oh, I dunno... frag grenades? Yeah, those were what y'all missed.. Oh, and weapon mods! That instantly brings back all the RPG features you were missing, right?

SW:TOR and Mass Effect 3 will be the last Bioware games I buy if they continue in this direction (Just so I can finish off some story arcs I started, some I started all the way back at KOTOR 1), I know what you'll say "See you in the ones after that" and "good riddance" "No one cares" That's what happens when you criticise something or complain about something someone likes.

/Rant

Modifié par gogman25, 22 août 2011 - 08:22 .


#77
LPPrince

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You know what makes me happy in the pants about DXHR?

It has inventory.

#78
AtreiyaN7

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I would agree. I've always played the games more for the stories than the invisible dice-rolling/stats/rules, not that I don't enjoy having a warrior-mage, combo classes, etc. I just don't think that a hard definition or label matters as much these days if the story-telling is compelling. You do see a lot of games where there is that blending of different elements and have character progression in one form or another. Eh, I suppose if someone is married to their rulebooks, etc. it might be a problem for them.

#79
Iakus

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LPPrince wrote...

Deus Ex Human Revolution- FPS/RPG hybrid with awesomeness riddled all over it.

RPG's are still relevant. DAO wouldn't of sold so well if it wasn't relevant.

Which perplexes me as to the direction of DA2, but whatevs.

DXHR, please augment my 360. Thankies.


Subject to change if DXHR turns out to be unexpectedly bad (and I really, really hope not) I agree with everything here.

#80
Ihatebadgames

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Good points pro and con.I pre ordered the CE to finish the story.Hope it's better than ME 1 but not holding my breath.
Dumbing it down for the masses is good money wise but EA been doing that for so long that it's affecting the National I.Q.It's also good money wise to buy a competiter run the product into the ground(get a tax write off) and than say"Well no one wants to buy(or understands) RPGs anymore so we are not making them.Enjoy your generic shooter feetballs game.

#81
LoK-y-Yo

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Why wouldn't he said, RPG are no longer relevant to US because we can sell more if we make OUR games more appealing to the mainstream?

The RPG have always been relevant and they are still. They had had always their niche and a big one, though not the biggest and for sure, it will never sell 25million copies "a la FPS" but still it would sell 3-4 millions. A FPS is all fireworks, very shiny and you will sell all you can in the first 3 weeks, after that, you will sell very little. A GOOD RPG will sell moderately at the begining but their sold will continue in time. You can see in the sales of DAO and DA2. Medium at the begining for DAO and very big for DA2 but in time, the DA2 sales drops to almost none, and the sales of DAO continue in time even rising.

So, no, the RPG is not irrelevant. It just will never sell as much as you want and so, you will change it for the mainstream. But don't get surprise when core rpg fans get mad.

EDIT: And if what it is important is just the history, then I would only read books. You only want a good history, you just read The Name of the Wind. But if I want to play a videogame, then the history is not the only thing it has to be good. Or does a good history makes a book or a movie good by default? It needs something more I think

Modifié par LoK-y-Yo, 22 août 2011 - 08:47 .


#82
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iAmLegion2183 wrote...

two things I don't miss from ME: the Mako and inventory.

Organising the equipment for my team in ME was an absolute pain, spending 30 minutes changing things around so everybody had the best possible stats... hows that for killing immersion... taking me out of the story to do inventory checks. BORING and UNNECESSARY... I'm glad Casey Hudson isn't concerned with genre conventions and just has the goal of creating a great game.
I love Mass Effect for its story, and player choices.

People who don't like the Mako aren't Mass Effect fans.:P

Modifié par jreezy, 22 août 2011 - 08:44 .


#83
IronSabbath88

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Mass Effect's only genre is "high octane awesome"

#84
LPPrince

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iakus wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Deus Ex Human Revolution- FPS/RPG hybrid with awesomeness riddled all over it.

RPG's are still relevant. DAO wouldn't of sold so well if it wasn't relevant.

Which perplexes me as to the direction of DA2, but whatevs.

DXHR, please augment my 360. Thankies.


Subject to change if DXHR turns out to be unexpectedly bad (and I really, really hope not) I agree with everything here.


Everyone's giving it 8/10 or higher rated reviews, so its not like there's a developer saying its the suxxorz.

But then again, DA2 had good reviews and that game was...

*pause*

Sorry, just came back from bashing my head open against a wall.

DXHR will likely be awesome. Totally gonna play it MGS style.

"3 for 300G" achievement playthrough.

100G- Beat the game on the hardest difficulty
100G- Beat the game without killing anyone(excluding bosses)
100G- Beat the game without triggering a single alarm

That alone, plus an inventory that's AN ACTUAL INVENTORY, multiple paths, a beautiful world, an amazing soundtrack, and a badass main character with a sick looking jacket that has a FRICKEN FLORAL PATTERN ON IT, means its going to be an awesome experience.

#85
LPPrince

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jreezy wrote...

iAmLegion2183 wrote...

two things I don't miss from ME: the Mako and inventory.

Organising the equipment for my team in ME was an absolute pain, spending 30 minutes changing things around so everybody had the best possible stats... hows that for killing immersion... taking me out of the story to do inventory checks. BORING and UNNECESSARY... I'm glad Casey Hudson isn't concerned with genre conventions and just has the goal of creating a great game.
I love Mass Effect for its story, and player choices.

People who don't like the Mako aren't Mass Effect fans.:P


HOW DARE YOU?

I LOVE THE MAKO AND MASS EFFECT. HOW CAN Y...

:whistle:

#86
Wusword77

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Developers are starting to see that the only real constants in RPGs (some form of character progression that doesn't need to be story based/related) can be implemented in other types of games and this is a problem for RPG players how?

Or is it just more RPG elitist crap that means we can't implement RPG staples in other types of games?

Modifié par Wusword77, 22 août 2011 - 08:52 .


#87
Ihatebadgames

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Mako was cool it just did not like mountains.

#88
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IronSabbath88 wrote...

Mass Effect's only genre is "high octane awesome"

Don't forget big choices and visceral combat

#89
Icinix

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LPPrince wrote...

You know what makes me happy in the pants about DXHR?

It has inventory.


You know what makes me happy in the pants about DXHR?

The fact that I can play the game as a stealthy charismatic player, or as an angry violent shoot everything pshycho.

Also the fact that every mission can be completed in a different path and manner as you see fit.

#90
Wusword77

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gogman25 wrote...
It's a damned good thing that Bioware isn't trying to cater to CoD and Gears fans then, right?
Oh wait...

Yes, I will proceed to go outright now and be compeletely ignorant and selfish in many peoples eyes now but I really don't care what people think of me or my opinions.


Saying you're going to be completely ignorant in your post might make people think the rest of your text is unimportant.  I know I stopped reading right here.

Modifié par Wusword77, 22 août 2011 - 08:52 .


#91
sbvera13

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I'm already planning to not buy ME3 (at least not while it's still full price - I'll wait two years and buy it for 20 bucks just to finish the story though). It's drifted too far from what brought me to BW games in general and the ME universe in particular. KOTOR/ME1 style expansive worlds are what I come to Bioware for. ME2 was a huge disappointment and it doesn't look like ME3 is getting better in that regard. I'm sure I'm not the only RPG fan that BW will lose if they push all their properties in this direction; I sure hope they have some teams that keep up the old magic while they explore their new crap.

#92
Dragoonlordz

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Wusword77 wrote...

Developers are starting to see that the only real constants in RPGs (some form of character progression that doesn't need to be story based/related) can be implemented in other types of games and this is a problem for RPG players how?

Or is it just more RPG elitist crap that means we can't implement RPG stables in other types of games?


The taking RPG elements from RPG's and putting into other genres is not the problem, what we have right now is other elements from other genres replacing the RPG elements in the RPG's themselves. It's the opposite happening.

#93
LPPrince

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Icinix wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

You know what makes me happy in the pants about DXHR?

It has inventory.


You know what makes me happy in the pants about DXHR?

The fact that I can play the game as a stealthy charismatic player, or as an angry violent shoot everything pshycho.

Also the fact that every mission can be completed in a different path and manner as you see fit.




And on top of that(which I completely agree with you on), there's meme worthy stuff in the game.

Look at-

1. "I never asked for this." by Adam Jensen

2. "Dogmentation" by a random NPC

3. "Weeeeell sheeeeet, if it ain't the cap'tin hiiiiiisself!" by a VERY stereotypical african american woman.

DXHR, how I love you so. And I don't even own you yet.

#94
Arppis

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Yup. ME2 and DA2 are great examples of chopping the tired tropes out of the mechanics, which admittedly shrinks the game, but leaves the bests parts of the game behind. DA2's formula needs some work, fo sho. But it will get there. :-)


Yeah. Why use the dices when we can do everything in "real time"? We only use dices in PnP games because that is the only way to do things in those games.

Modifié par Arppis, 22 août 2011 - 08:55 .


#95
sbvera13

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Arppis wrote...

Yeah. Why use the dices when we can do everything in "real time"? We only use dices in PnP games because that is the only way to do things in those games.


Perhaps because modern fans actually enjoy doing that way? Perhaps because we enjoy NOT doing things in real-time because we havea chance to sit and think it over, and then be gratified when a  well formed plan comes to fruition?

Button-mashing is not automatically better because it's in real time.  RPG mechanics exist for a reason, and unless they are replaced with something else that fulfills that same reason, you will lose the RPG fans.

#96
SNascimento

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I agree... Mass Effect is the model of what a RPG should be like today.
.
Now they just have to do it right this time with the Dragon Age franchise.

#97
FERMi27

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Is this somehow related to ME3? I really doubt that.

#98
Nashiktal

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Oh for gods sake people, DA2 was disappointing but it wasnt that bad!

Sheesh. Maybe the BSN should actually be forced to play bad games, they have been spoiled.

#99
marshalleck

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Nashiktal wrote...

Oh for gods sake people, DA2 was disappointing but it wasnt that bad!


Agreed. It was better than ME2, and no, I'm not joking or trolling.

#100
Marionetten

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I'm sure RPGs feels the same about BioWare. Think it's time for a divorce.