202 réponses à ce sujet

[Chromie]

Deus Ex releases tomorrow considering how no one on BSN can come to agreement what makes an rpg I'll mention it.

[Merci357]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

The line about blending different genres really disturbs me. Keep them distinct! Chocolate may be more popular than strawberry icecream, but strawberry fans aren't going to suddenly love chocolate, and even chocolate fans will eventually become dismayed by the lack of choice.

Role playing elements and stronger stories are improving FPSs.

Name one recent FPS with an actual decent story line released in the last two years that isn't a generic military cliche. Or some slapped on "unlocking component" for mp.  It's ok I'll wait.

Recent FPS with a decent story is the question? Ok, I'll bite, Metro 2033.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

element eater wrote...

^borderlands? not that the story was particularly good, and not that i would particularly disagree with you just think its worth a mention

Story was terrible, fun game however I do agree. Someone else mentioned Metro 2033, which I'll take their word for it as I've not played it. But overall I don't think there's really a ton of FPS'es out there with great stories. Deus Ex I wouldn't even count as a shooter as it's more stealth based to begin with, in fact I would go as far to say DE is more RPG than shooter to begin with.

[dheer]

Yeah, I saw this earlier and was not surprised, which gets at how bad it's gotten. I wish there was a scrappy studio similar to CDProjeckt that was interested in making party based rpgs. From Dragon Age 1's sales, there's still a large market wanting games in that style and Bioware clearly isn't interested in making them any longer. I don't want to be stuck playing BG/IWD/NWN/DA:O forever.

mrcrusty wrote...
I'll actually be grateful when they can just come outright and say they don't want to make RPGs anymore, but interactive narratives stacked with combat instead. Maybe then we can get to acknowledging that an RPG consists of a variety of mechanics and gameplay elements and not "a story with choices" or that stuffing a game full of cinematics makes it a better RPG.

They already have.

BioWare is known for making RPGs, but what we're really trying to make are interactive narratives. At the moment, the interactive narrative is associated with RPGs, but I don't think it has to be. So we've moved, in some cases, to more accessible game play, in the case of Mass Effect, or we've streamlined certain processes and experiences in other cases.

It's from an older article interviewing Mark Darrah. http://www.zam.com/s...559&storypage=3

Modifié par dheer, 23 août 2011 - 02:30 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

element eater wrote...

^borderlands? not that the story was particularly good, and not that i would particularly disagree with you just think its worth a mention

Story was terrible, fun game however I do agree. Someone else mentioned Metro 2033, which I'll take their word for it as I've not played it. But overall I don't think there's really a ton of FPS'es out there with great stories. Deus Ex I wouldn't even count as a shooter as it's more stealth based to begin with, in fact I would go as far to say DE is more RPG than shooter to begin with.

STALKER games too.

Though I would not count genre blending and strong stories in Shooters as a "new" thing or "evolution".

Deus Ex: Human Revolution had to be a prequel to something, right?

Then there's the System Shock games too.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

mrcrusty wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

element eater wrote...

^borderlands? not that the story was particularly good, and not that i would particularly disagree with you just think its worth a mention

Story was terrible, fun game however I do agree. Someone else mentioned Metro 2033, which I'll take their word for it as I've not played it. But overall I don't think there's really a ton of FPS'es out there with great stories. Deus Ex I wouldn't even count as a shooter as it's more stealth based to begin with, in fact I would go as far to say DE is more RPG than shooter to begin with.

STALKER games too.

Though I would not count genre blending and strong stories in Shooters as a "new" thing or "evolution".

Deus Ex: Human Revolution had to be a prequel to something, right?

Then there's the System Shock games too.

Ahh yes, Forgot about STALKER, and I agree, it's not a new thing, just often not executed very well. At least in my opinion.

DE:HR is indeed a prequel.

[TEWR]

Bah!

That's all I can really say. Bah!

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

element eater wrote...

^borderlands? not that the story was particularly good, and not that i would particularly disagree with you just think its worth a mention

Story was terrible, fun game however I do agree. Someone else mentioned Metro 2033, which I'll take their word for it as I've not played it. But overall I don't think there's really a ton of FPS'es out there with great stories. Deus Ex I wouldn't even count as a shooter as it's more stealth based to begin with, in fact I would go as far to say DE is more RPG than shooter to begin with.

STALKER games too.

Though I would not count genre blending and strong stories in Shooters as a "new" thing or "evolution".

Deus Ex: Human Revolution had to be a prequel to something, right?

Then there's the System Shock games too.

Ahh yes, Forgot about STALKER, and I agree, it's not a new thing, just often not executed very well. At least in my opinion.

DE:HR is indeed a prequel.

That's because shooters are divided into different categories: the MP centric shooter with a throwaway SP campaign and SP campaign centric shooters, sometimes with MP. It's just that since like Doom, the former has been more popular than the latter. But the latter has always existed.

[MerinTB]

Wow.

I read that artticle several times trying to see the positive spin on it for me.

The conclusion I drew is that I should stop counting on BioWare for content that interests me, overall, and prepare to stop finding games I want to play.

Ah, well, I was getting too old for this stuff anyway.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

But in any case, yeah... RPGs. Irrelevant?

I don't think so, it's just that RPGs have always been a niche on the cusp of being mainstream. You want the big money, you've got two options: present the depth and design principles of older RPGs in a way that's welcoming for players, or remove as much as possible to appeal to a broader audience. In both cases there's "streamlining" and cutting compared to more niche games, it's just a matter of how the cutting is done and how much is left.

Origins, New Vegas and Bethesda games in general work under the former, Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 worked under the latter.

Of course, both ways present their own set of problems depending on execution/implementation (broken mechanics v "dumbed down"), but I do prefer the former over the latter.

YMMV, obviously.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 23 août 2011 - 03:03 .

[MerinTB]

mrcrusty wrote...
I'll actually be grateful when they can just come outright and say they don't want to make RPGs anymore, but interactive narratives stacked with combat instead. Maybe then we can get to acknowledging that an RPG consists of a variety of mechanics and gameplay elements and not "a story with choices" or that stuffing a game full of cinematics makes it a better RPG.

Who knows, it'd probably result in better games too as they wouldn't have to keep one eye on their newer market while keeping the other eye on their old one.

I have said something like this for some time, however. That I consider BioWare's strength (post BG2) to be in what I consider "adventure games", i.e. interactive narratives. They should ditch the pretense of being an RPG company entirely and stop trying to subvert the idea of "RPG" as being tied to story.

As you say, they'd probably end up making better games and the old die-hards can get the sign they need to throw in the towel.

[lobi]

It would be nice if we could choose an alignment at the start of a game so PC/NPC dialogue and ability's were suited to our char instead of spamming a red or blue response that almost always sounds out of character because the writer is trying to force us down the middle of the road with their Vision of what the PC's alignment should be. It's impossible to build a fail char.
But like Merin TB say's Adventure games are what Bioware makes now.

Modifié par lobi, 23 août 2011 - 03:16 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I wouldn't say that they make adventure games now, mechanically DA 2 is still an RPG. It's just a poor one. To clarify, in isolation, many of the mechanics were not inherently bad ideas, just how it was all put together. It's strong suits are the character interaction, story, etc.

It'd probably make a better adventure game, though. So it may not be a bad idea to move into the Action-Adventure genre entirely.

I dunno about picking an alignment on creation. I think though that a better introduction area would be needed to flesh out an initial persona.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 23 août 2011 - 03:29 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

RPG's are becoming less relevant. Yet he he also says that RPGs are harder to define. How can they become less relevant if they are difficult to define in the first place?

Anyway, I disagree with this assement. New applications and styles for implementing RPGs might change and evolve, but they have some pretty distinct characteristics that define them as such. Given that they evolved originally from table top, pen and paper dice rolling games, they share the same basic characteristcs: player created or at least customized characters, usually in great detail with background and all. This also involve full customization of that character's class/abilities, which not only effect their combat skills, but just as often, interactions with characters other than themselves. And because of this emphasis on characters, both player created and not, there is also the need for at least some even basic form of story/ quest. Other aspects core to original RPGs is looting, gaining experience and leveling up, as well as a system of rolls and checks to determine failure or success of most actions.

These things can be expanded upon, or adapted to numerous systems and styles of game with adjustments or changes, and still maintain a pretty definitive feel of their own genre. But if you remove too many of the core aspects that define the genre, than it's more a case of moving away from the genre into a different direction, and not the Genre itself becoming harder to define or agree upon.

The direction Bioware is going is not what i would class as RPG's, but a sort of middle ground between RPG and shooter often refered to as action/adventure. Which, if that is where it is intending to go, good luck to them. However, I would not be interested, and would most likely move on to other franchises that continue to stick with developing and innovating RPGs into new creative directions, as I would no longer be Bioware's target audience or market.

[Morroian]

element eater wrote...

^borderlands? not that the story was particularly good, and not that i would particularly disagree with you just think its worth a mention

One of the aims with Borderlands 2 is apparently to provide a stronger story than in 1. The narrative in B1 wasn't great but there was some background depth once you got past the heavy layer of satire.

[Yuqi]

On regards to the COD crowd, its just a phase IMO Like Pokemon,Like Mario,Like streetfighter. FF13 sold mostly on its brand,not on the actual title. They sell because there known to be good...until ff13

I for one, have only played a shooter once or twice in my life. It just does not appeal to me in the slightest. If the route there taking continues; there core fanbase will leave, and another company will replace them. (and make money from former bioware fans.)

Modifié par Yuqi, 23 août 2011 - 03:37 .

[Morroian]

mrcrusty wrote...

I wouldn't say that they make adventure games now, mechanically DA 2 is still an RPG. It's just a poor one. To clarify, in isolation, many of the mechanics were not inherently bad ideas, just how it was all put together. It's strong suits are the character interaction, story, etc.

It'd probably make a better adventure game, though. 

Not to me, the driving impetus in the game and for multiple play throughs is creating and shaping Hawke, trying multiple builds and varying the character interaction, all of which I can do in DA2 even with the faults. An adventure game I'd play through once and that would be it.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Shaping Hawke and character interaction are not inherently RPG elements. All that requires is some choices in the story and branching character development. Any genre can do that, though the best ones are admittedly RPGs. The character building is, but it's undeniably more limiting than other RPGs. How different is a playthrough between Rogue and Warrior Hawkes in DA 2 compared to Origins, then how different are playthroughs between different Rogues and Warriors in DA 2 compared to Origins.

Less freedom there to create unique characters.

Of course, it comes together in a package and if you enjoyed Dragon Age 2, that's fine. But it was because of more subjective elements than actual depth and variety in it's mechanics/gameplay elements or creativity in it's encounters/quests. I did say though that the game's strengths were in it's story and character interaction, so you'd probably agree with me anyways.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 23 août 2011 - 03:50 .

[Kileyan]

Merci357 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

The line about blending different genres really disturbs me. Keep them distinct! Chocolate may be more popular than strawberry icecream, but strawberry fans aren't going to suddenly love chocolate, and even chocolate fans will eventually become dismayed by the lack of choice.

Role playing elements and stronger stories are improving FPSs.

Name one recent FPS with an actual decent story line released in the last two years that isn't a generic military cliche. Or some slapped on "unlocking component" for mp.  It's ok I'll wait.

Recent FPS with a decent story is the question? Ok, I'll bite, Metro 2033.

The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series had an ok story, but more importantly a world and environment that made me feel like I was in a 'real' world.  Just sayin, you asked, there have been some shooters than have done RPG better than DA2. Those do exist, and they did it without 100's of hours of voice acting, and without a large portion of the game being a cinematic movie.

It is possible to tell a story, and make an awesome rpg experience, simply by creating a detailed and awesome world for your players to explore. Bioware has went the other direction. Thier world is kinda boring, their maps you can actually explore are almost an afterthought. THeir RPG experience seems to be mostly invested in the click your own movie cutscenes approach.

Bioware is good at the squad/part members having great personalities, I love them, or I even love the hate the characters, thats says they did good things.

What Bioware needs to do and invest in some artists and game designers who know how to create maps and worlds.

Modifié par Kileyan, 23 août 2011 - 03:53 .

[Atakuma]

With ME3 actually adding more depth to it's mechanics, while at the same time ramping up the cinematic elements, I'm not really worried about Bioware turning into Quantic Dream.

[Morroian]

mrcrusty wrote...

Shaping Hawke and character interaction are not inherently RPG elements.

Shaping your character isn't an inherent RPG element? OK I admit I'm not a hardcore rpg player (I began playing them with Kotor) but I would have thought that was the essence of role playing.

[Morroian]

Kileyan wrote...

Just sayin, you asked, there have been some shooters than have done RPG better than DA2. Those do exist, and they did it without 100's of hours of voice acting, and without a large portion of the game being a cinematic movie. 

I'd be interested in knowing what they are. If I haven't played them I want to.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Morroian wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Shaping Hawke and character interaction are not inherently RPG elements.

Shaping your character isn't an inherent RPG element? OK I admit I'm not a hardcore rpg player (I began playing them with Kotor) but I would have thought that was the essence of role playing.

Well that explains alot.

[Kileyan]

Morroian wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Just sayin, you asked, there have been some shooters than have done RPG better than DA2. Those do exist, and they did it without 100's of hours of voice acting, and without a large portion of the game being a cinematic movie. 

I'd be interested in knowing what they are. If I haven't played them I want to.

I just named them, and I won't go any further, because my spidey sense tells me this will be one of those conversations that argues about what an RPG is.

[Barry Bathernak]

why am i still here since i get mad at any interview and the pr i just cant do this anymore.and the worst thing is one of my favorite developers actually blamed me for there game not being liked,it really hurt.