202 réponses à ce sujet

[lobi]

Elephant enters the room.



Save or Harvest? Protect or enslave? RPG or shooter?
plasmid, wep and enviorment cross combos, wep custom, armour custom, plasmid custom, moral decisions that have an impact on the outcome. Stats, classes. It is called a shooter. Cross party combo's next.

Modifié par lobi, 23 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[SkittlesKat96]

Casey Hudson and pretty much the rest of the Bioware developers don't look at games and say 'Okay a typical rpg is like x so lets make this game like x, this is what is an rpg blah blah blah' they just make the game and make it good.

That is the formula for Mass Effect and Mass Effect is a great game series. They didn't waste their time.

On the other hand though it is true that Dragon Age Origins is a better game than DA 2 (or at least in my opinion and a lot of other peoples opinion on this forum...) so its not necessarily a bad thing that they look at the typical Rpg and imitate that.

Anyway my point is Greg Zeschuk has a good point and there is a middle ground with this which I think some people on this forum aren't realizing, I think its okay to think that Dragon Age 2 was a mediocre disappointment and still think that the Bioware developers know what they are doing and that some of DA 2's ideas are good.

So yeah. In my opinion Dragon Age II wasn't bad because they stopped doing what other Rpgs did, it was bad because of rushed development time and bad idea implementation.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 23 août 2011 - 04:22 .

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Shaping Hawke and character interaction are not inherently RPG elements.

Shaping your character isn't an inherent RPG element? OK I admit I'm not a hardcore rpg player (I began playing them with Kotor) but I would have thought that was the essence of role playing.

Well that explains alot.

Ah yes here we go snide remarks and elitist posturing rather than an actual debate as per usual.

Modifié par Morroian, 23 août 2011 - 04:26 .

[Morroian]

Apropos of this discussion here's a recent quote from Raf Colantonio of Arkane Studios on his latest game Dishonored: “We always thought this type of game would eventually be dominant; that an RPG is not physical and not visceral enough for people, and that a shooter is not deep enough.”

Dishonored will be a blend of genres, similar to Deus Ex but in a steampunk setting I think.

Modifié par Morroian, 23 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Morroian wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Shaping Hawke and character interaction are not inherently RPG elements.

Shaping your character isn't an inherent RPG element? OK I admit I'm not a hardcore rpg player (I began playing them with Kotor) but I would have thought that was the essence of role playing.

Shaping Hawke in the way you mention (through moral choices and dialog). RPGs have always been built on a framework of stats, so roleplaying was done primarily through the character system and gameplay, something that Dragon Age 2 is not as good at as other RPGs. I don't see how that's really a debatable point. I'm not saying it's not an RPG (DA 2 is obviously an (Action) RPG), simply that it's not as "deep" as others in it's RPG elements.

Witcher 2 also suffers from this problem, though it's alleviated a bit because it's gameplay has more variety than Dragon Age 2's.

It comes down to this really (for me): how much roleplay was done through cinematics, watching characters and dialog vs actually doing stuff like how to approach combat, outfitting your character (and/or party), character progression (something that level scaling absolutely messes with), solving puzzles, taking different approaches to problems, exploration, discovery and creative use of your abilities, interaction with the game world and building a unique character with a ruleset that allows for all of that.

Now, you may be able to roleplay through dialog and moral choices just fine and it does help quite a bit, but that's not going to be something inherent to RPGs. It's something that makes it better. Especially if you can reward character builds through skill checks and the like. So, I like a mixture of the two types, what I don't like is when there's really only one type and what I really don't like is when people think that the latter form of roleplaying doesn't exist or that the former is the only form of roleplaying.

I dunno, maybe it's because of my slight PnP influence, but I've always seen RPGs not as a storytelling genre, but as a genre where mechanics and story work together to provide an experience unique to you and only you/your group. There is a subtle, but massive difference between the two. The more restrictive the gameplay (character system, world design, environmental interaction, etc etc), the harder it is for me to get that.

Because if you take out a powerful ruleset that allows for variety in character builds, in gameplay, with enemy/encounter design to match, creative quests, puzzles, exploration, encouraging creative solutions to problems but keep the moral choices, dialog and character interaction, what you have is an adventure game, not an RPG.

As for Dishonored, it's a modern envisioning of the Arx Fatalis game design, which itself was a modern (for it's time) envisioning of the Ultima Underworld game design. So, genre blending in that sense has been going on since like 1992. But it fits in with my tastes anyways.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 23 août 2011 - 04:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I personally do not really care about RPGs proper, as described by Mccrusty.

My primary interest is in a good story, everything else I am not that adamant about. Now the irony of Bioware's statement is that I am finding their stories and story telling to be in decline recently.

[Wyndham711]

I enjoy a variety of different, distinct types of games. What I don't enjoy is this trend of endless blending, where we end up with constant mashups, combinations, and hybrids. Sure, those sorts of games can be fun every now and again, but I do not think it wise that hybrids should become the future of gaming.

There is this illusion that by combining something niche (CRPG, etc) to something popular (shooters, etc) you simply merge both audiences and create something truly new that is better than the sum of its parts. It is just that, an illusion. The reality of the situation often consists of dumbing down, streamlining, mainstreaming, cutting corners, and trying to please all without offending any. In essence, neutered blandness.

Modifié par Wyndham711, 23 août 2011 - 10:08 .

[Wyndham711]

Sorry for the double post.

Modifié par Wyndham711, 23 août 2011 - 10:07 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally do not really care about RPGs proper, as described by Mccrusty.

My primary interest is in a good story, everything else I am not that adamant about. Now the irony of Bioware's statement is that I am finding their stories and story telling to be in decline recently.

Well, what we look for specifically isn't necessarily mutually exclusive. We tend to agree on quite a bit.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

RPGs have grown in the last 20 years from being a genre all of their own into a feature set incorporated into other Genres. I would argue that the vast majority of RPGs have now become interactive stories and that the RPG elements outside of conversation and story have been taken on by other games.

IF anything they are more relevant just not as a singular genre.

[AAHook2]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

The line about blending different genres really disturbs me. Keep them distinct! Chocolate may be more popular than strawberry icecream, but strawberry fans aren't going to suddenly love chocolate, and even chocolate fans will eventually become dismayed by the lack of choice.

Role playing elements and stronger stories are improving FPSs.

Name one recent FPS with an actual decent story line released in the last two years that isn't a generic military cliche. Or some slapped on "unlocking component" for mp.  It's ok I'll wait.

Lost Planet 2 was kind of neat.
I think the real argument here is, yeah RPG elements can improve action and FPS games with the presence of RPG elements.
The jury is out on whether action and FPS elements have anything to offer in the way of improving RPGs.

I was playing Origins on the PC earlier and I've generally played the game on 360.
The difference is stark. On the PC I HAVE TO think about where to place my archer, my tanker, my support and flankers.
I can't just wade into battle like I did on console. I have to have worked out a strategy and learn to adjust on the fly what I'm doing.
Once I started playing this way, the game became much easier and actually more rewarding and fun. It's pretty much a whole new game.
I can see now how playing on console was really a game set on Easy to begin with, but really hindered you when you wanted to play on harder difficulty settings.
It really is slower as a way to play, but ultimately much more challenging and rewarding. Much more so than pulling a trigger or hitting an automatic response, or jumping around like a spider monkey.

[furryrage59]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

RPGs have grown in the last 20 years from being a genre all of their own into a feature set incorporated into other Genres. I would argue that the vast majority of RPGs have now become interactive stories and that the RPG elements outside of conversation and story have been taken on by other games.

IF anything they are more relevant just not as a singular genre.

I've noticed this as well so his comment is rather strange.

[dragon_83]

A very wise man once said: "This is like a bartender who keeps watering down his brew with water announces that beer is becoming less relevant."

[culletron1]

OK I have been as big a critic of DA2 as anyone (I truly despise that game) but I think he kinda has a point here...

As mentioned before Mass Effect and Bioshock are not worlds apart... DA2 was a travesty but I feel it was mainly down to execution rather than concept

* The fighting system was destroyed by rogues, who would look more at home in a night club, endless waves of magic ninjas and BORING repetitive environments
* The story taking place through time rather than space was ruined by the lack of change in kirkwall
* The actual story line was completely mis-managed though it really wasn't up to much in the first place
* A horrible redesign of the races (other than the Qunari who kinda look cool)
* A family you cared nothing for at any point in the game
* A protagonist who you never learn anything about

The only core RPG aspects of DA2 that were noticeably missing in comparison to other games were
* Companions who you could talk to or equip
* NPCs you could talk to (this really really hurt the immersion of the game)
* And add kirkwall as a poorly built, dead world with no wow factor at *ANY* point in the game

[Oddeyee]

I realy want bioware to reply to this article.

For me it has hugely impacted what  I think the direction bioware will take in their future games.

A lot of X fans are flaming bioware with comments saying they always knew this is the direction they would take.
A lot of current fans are worryed like myself.

I can see this problem persists in Dragon age 2 , you do play a role yes , but its not very flexable and I didnt feel I was creating the role I wanted.

I cant help but think EA has had an impact on their dessision making too. Dark times seem to be ahed.

PS: soz for typos

[Rixxencaxx]

mrcrusty wrote...

http://www.escapistm...g-Less-Relevant

"It's funny because the RPG in the context of the current world is - well, it's not specifically irrelevant, but it's becoming less relevant in and of itself," he continued. "It's more a function of, 'Hey, this game has a great story.' For us, [it's] having that emotion but also having other great features like combat and persistence of character progression and stuff."

Well...right....BIOWARE rpgs are becoming less rilevant

[Gosuchobo]

I just don't get it. As a company known for developing first class rpg's, why would you give statements like these, completely alienating your fanbase. And this isn't the first time in the last couple of month's I've read statements from bioware that just make me wanna cry.

[furryrage59]

Gosuchobo wrote...

I just don't get it. As a company known for developing first class rpg's, why would you give statements like these, completely alienating your fanbase. And this isn't the first time in the last couple of month's I've read statements from bioware that just make me wanna cry.

It is mind boggling isn't it

[Sacred_Fantasy]

mrcrusty wrote...

http://www.escapistm...g-Less-Relevant

"It's funny because the RPG in the context of the current world is - well, it's not specifically irrelevant, but it's becoming less relevant in and of itself," he continued. "It's more a function of, 'Hey, this game has a great story.' For us, [it's] having that emotion but also having other great features like combat and persistence of character progression and stuff."

With the direction of DA 2 and ME 2, I'm not surprised why BioWare is becoming less relevant.
Ah well... at least they did prove they listen with Legacy.
Not expecting very much for DA 3. I just want my own character, companions and story. That's all I'm asking. If that simple wish is also less relevant than nothing is relevant with BioWare's product anymore.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 23 août 2011 - 01:45 .

[Merilsell]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My primary interest is in a good story, everything else I am not that adamant about. Now the irony of Bioware's statement is that I am finding their stories and story telling to be in decline recently.

I second this. If a story fails to grip my interest or isn't engaging in any way, the game mechanics can be as good as it want. I wouldn't play this game for long and quickly toss it aside for another one again. As it happened with DA2, where I was bored. Completely so. Also I second the last part. I have the same feeling here. Unfortunately.

Modifié par Merilsell, 23 août 2011 - 01:48 .

[Cruehitman]

All I know is.... as sad a fact for me as it may be... if they continue down the "blending" path and trying to make things more arcade style, giving us less to make our own, etc... if this is where DA3 is headed, then I'm headed out the door and will move on. And most likely, I won't return.

By the way, does anyone else see the MEGA world being created with Skyrim? The excitement continues to grow. That game is going to be a monster and sell like crazy!!! Bioware's take on RPG's is a joke. True RPG can still exist, and still sell WAY better than the blended mess of genres

[Kimberly Shaw]

What's BOGGLING to me is that Origins is only a few years old, catered to the RPG old school crowd, and was incredible well received commercially and critically.

Why on earth throw that away? To chase a market that isn't interested in anything RPG-ish or Fantasy?

Sad times. They seem to want an experience like the old Dragon's Lair laser disc games, where you see a different movie depending on which button you press.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

What defines an RPG has become muddy water, and it has been for a long time.

RPG used mean something out of a pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons game, creating your own character, grouping with other people and adventuring together, for exploration, loot, camaraderie, and the occasional spat between companions. It meant epic tales such as Eric and the Gazebo and the Head of Vecna (further down via same link).

Not only did you get to create your own character and play a role, but it involved interaction with others roles (be that real people or NPCs), that is, the party aspect. And all of you were playing in the hand-tailored story and world of a GM. Some Games were more heavily combat oriented, some preferred story, others were a mix between the two--it all depended, and no preference was right or wrong. GMs will typically have a game in mind and then ask people if they'd be interested to play it until a party was formed. Flexible GMs can sometimes change their game to suit the players as it progressed, but this isn't something developers can do with a single computer game.

RPGs are not becoming less relevant. Computer game RPGs are always going to be evolving (or devolving, if you prefer), but you'll have your combat-based action-heavy RPGs for people who like hack'n'slash, the action/story RPGs like Dragon Age: O and 2, and the story-heavy RPGs like Planescape:Torment.

It's just that combat-heavy RPGs are more prevalent, and story-heavy RPGs practically don't exist.

So is the problem the game writers for not being 'good enough', publishers not seeing a market in intelligent stories vs flashy fights and SFX, or that there simply is a bigger market for combat games and simple RPG elements rather than complex non-combat world interaction?

[Kilshrek]

Let's all give our money to Double Bear(ZPRG -Dead State) instead! It seems like every time someone from Bioware makes a public statement they're indirectly telling me they don't want my money any more.