202 réponses à ce sujet

[KLUME777]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

The line about blending different genres really disturbs me. Keep them distinct! Chocolate may be more popular than strawberry icecream, but strawberry fans aren't going to suddenly love chocolate, and even chocolate fans will eventually become dismayed by the lack of choice.

Role playing elements and stronger stories are improving FPSs.

Name one recent FPS with an actual decent story line released in the last two years that isn't a generic military cliche. Or some slapped on "unlocking component" for mp.  It's ok I'll wait.

While not recent, SW: Republic Commando had some memorable characters and story. Of coarse, im biased, as it is my favourite FPS of all time.

[Giltspur]

It seems like this is NOT what he is saying:
Games we think of as RPG's (Dragon Age, Skyrim, Witcher 2, Deus Ex) are becoming less relevant.

It seems like this is what he IS saying:
The term "RPG" is becoming a less relevant way to describe games because gameplay can differ so much among games we consider RPG's.  For example we have shooter RPG's (Mass Effect), party-based combat RPG's that owe their inspiration to Dungeons and Dragons, solo melee combat RPG's (Witcher 2), stealth-shooter hybrid RPG's (Deus Ex).  And given that people can disagree over whether Witcher 2 and Mass Effect 2 are RPG's at all (with some saying both are action games, some saying Witcher is an old-school RPG while ME2 is just a shooter to others saying they're both RPG's) and over whether DA2 is an RPG or an "action RPG", the term just not very descriptive anymore and thus not a relevant way of talking about a game--because it's an inadequate way to describe a game.

[macrocarl]

Giltspur wrote...

It seems like this is NOT what he is saying:
Games we think of as RPG's (Dragon Age, Skyrim, Witcher 2, Deus Ex) are becoming less relevant.

It seems like this is what he IS saying:
The term "RPG" is becoming a less relevant way to describe games because gameplay can differ so much among games we consider RPG's.  For example we have shooter RPG's (Mass Effect), party-based combat RPG's that owe their inspiration to Dungeons and Dragons, solo melee combat RPG's (Witcher 2), stealth-shooter hybrid RPG's (Deus Ex).  And given that people can disagree over whether Witcher 2 and Mass Effect 2 are RPG's at all (with some saying both are action games, some saying Witcher is an old-school RPG while ME2 is just a shooter to others saying they're both RPG's) and over whether DA2 is an RPG or an "action RPG", the term just not very descriptive anymore and thus not a relevant way of talking about a game--because it's an inadequate way to describe a game.

Yup. That's exactly what he's saying. High 5!

[Ahriman]

Giltspur wrote...

It seems like this is NOT what he is saying:
Games we think of as RPG's (Dragon Age, Skyrim, Witcher 2, Deus Ex) are becoming less relevant.

It seems like this is what he IS saying:
The term "RPG" is becoming a less relevant way to describe games because gameplay can differ so much among games we consider RPG's.  For example we have shooter RPG's (Mass Effect), party-based combat RPG's that owe their inspiration to Dungeons and Dragons, solo melee combat RPG's (Witcher 2), stealth-shooter hybrid RPG's (Deus Ex).  And given that people can disagree over whether Witcher 2 and Mass Effect 2 are RPG's at all (with some saying both are action games, some saying Witcher is an old-school RPG while ME2 is just a shooter to others saying they're both RPG's) and over whether DA2 is an RPG or an "action RPG", the term just not very descriptive anymore and thus not a relevant way of talking about a game--because it's an inadequate way to describe a game.

I partly disagree. When someone says whatever-you-want-rpg it usually means that there is some sort of level progression and customization. If there are some dialog options it stated directly.

[tfive24]

Well, if this is Bioware's new direction, then it's time for me to jump of the Bioware wagon. It's been a great run with this company, but I don't like cinematic narratives due to been shallow and less replay-ability. The three out of the five games i brought from them are some of my favorite., but their last two suck to me.

Modifié par tfive24, 23 août 2011 - 03:40 .

[Gunderic]

Rixxencaxx wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

http://www.escapistm...g-Less-Relevant

"It's funny because the RPG in the context of the current world is - well, it's not specifically irrelevant, but it's becoming less relevant in and of itself," he continued. "It's more a function of, 'Hey, this game has a great story.' For us, [it's] having that emotion but also having other great features like combat and persistence of character progression and stuff."

Well...right....BIOWARE rpgs are becoming less rilevant

Simply this, Mr. Zeschuk.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Rixxencaxx wrote...
Well...right....BIOWARE rpgs are becoming less rilevant

This.

[Gunderic]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I think you guys are misunderstanding what he's saying.

I haven't read the actual review, but the comment suggests that while he thinks the RPG is becoming less relevant to the gaming community, he wants BioWare to hold true to those more "old-school" aspects, while still moving forward. See this part? :

"but also having other great features like combat and persistence of character progression and stuff."

Combat... wonderful. They had me at hello.

[aries1001]

I'm not sure what genre the first Bioshock was, to me, it was a blend of rpg and shooter with a decent story, Deus Ex (the first one) was similar, Stalker was similar to both of those. FEAR also had a decent story, I found.

As I see, Bioware's strength has always been the interactive narrative - all the way from the first Baldur's Gate to Dragon Age 2. (don't know about shattered steell or the sonic game, though). In BG1, you had a great story, great characters, great dialogue etc. etc. - something similar you had in BG2, Jade Empire,
Mass Effect, and Dragon Age. The odd one out here is Neverwinter Knights which basically is a game with a toolset for creating your own worlds - just like in the good ol' days of pen and paper D&D.

To me, DA2's story and the way it is told is a logical development for Bioware, focusing on what they do best. To tell stories in a game world...

[blaidfiste]

Cruehitman wrote...

All I know is.... as sad a fact for me as it may be... if they continue down the "blending" path and trying to make things more arcade style, giving us less to make our own, etc... if this is where DA3 is headed, then I'm headed out the door and will move on. And most likely, I won't return.

By the way, does anyone else see the MEGA world being created with Skyrim? The excitement continues to grow. That game is going to be a monster and sell like crazy!!! Bioware's take on RPG's is a joke. True RPG can still exist, and still sell WAY better than the blended mess of genres

Yep, Skyrim is going to be awesome.  Let's just hope the folks at Bethesda didn't get the memo that "RPGs are becoming less relevant."  I don't want another action game featuring a fully voice acted Nord protagonist lol.

Fallout 3 was a good example of how to blend genres.  They took an old RPG and gave it a modern gameplay mechanics.

[Tsuga C]

I concur with Sarah Jinstar and find that the true growing irrelevancy is Greg Zeschuck and those at EAWare who agree with him.  One more non-old school BioWare game from them (two more at most) and they'll be dismembered and digested completely by the EA amoeba. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

As long as this "blending" doesn't involve action combat, and still lets us roleplay a character.

If we can't roleplay, and the combat gameplay is reduced to player-skill twitching, then these games will have nothing for me at all.

[Atakuma]

blaidfiste wrote...

Yep, Skyrim is going to be awesome.  Let's just hope the folks at Bethesda didn't get the memo that "RPGs are becoming less relevant."  I don't want another action game featuring a fully voice acted Nord protagonist lol.

That's exactly what you'll be getting minus the PC VO. Bethesda are streamlining the crap out of Skyrim with less skills, less spells and more focus on combat.

Edit: For the record I don't believe any of that is actually a bad thing, just trying to point out that it's going down a similar path.

Modifié par Atakuma, 23 août 2011 - 07:03 .

[FedericoV]

Giltspur wrote...

It seems like this is NOT what he is saying:
Games we think of as RPG's (Dragon Age, Skyrim, Witcher 2, Deus Ex) are becoming less relevant.

It seems like this is what he IS saying:
The term "RPG" is becoming a less relevant way to describe games because gameplay can differ so much among games we consider RPG's.  For example we have shooter RPG's (Mass Effect), party-based combat RPG's that owe their inspiration to Dungeons and Dragons, solo melee combat RPG's (Witcher 2), stealth-shooter hybrid RPG's (Deus Ex).  And given that people can disagree over whether Witcher 2 and Mass Effect 2 are RPG's at all (with some saying both are action games, some saying Witcher is an old-school RPG while ME2 is just a shooter to others saying they're both RPG's) and over whether DA2 is an RPG or an "action RPG", the term just not very descriptive anymore and thus not a relevant way of talking about a game--because it's an inadequate way to describe a game.

And he is completely wrong because the chore of an RPG is not combat gameplay but the meaningfull interaction between your charachter, the setting and the story... and that's relevant as ever if done right. No action game or first/third person shooter have done that. As soon as it does, it becomes an RPG (Deus Ex anyone?). In RPGs, combat is just a storytelling device.

Modifié par FedericoV, 23 août 2011 - 06:57 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

I actually found TES skills to be one of their worst features anyway. Yes there was a lot of them and very customizable but the level up system was stupid (jump up an down every where suddenly you have more hitpoints!) and please don't get me started on item and monster scaling. UGH.

And I say that having played Arena and Daggerfall in the 90s, and buying Morrowind and Oblivion on release.

What I love about TES is the sandbox world and rolling up a character and then going and exploring everywhere and meeting people. That is the cool part..and I think Skyrim will have that up the wazoo. They just keep getting better and better with the radiant AI, so hopefully they pioneer what will eventually be an amazing interactive world that reacts to everything a PC can do.

One day.

I don't kid myself that Skyrim is going to be the be all end all but I will love to play it anyway. Bioware doesn't try to make sandbox games, their games to me are much more about the fun of having a pre-set party and getting to know them as much as the story. Whereas Bethesda is about making a beautiful huge game world and everything else is secondary. Both have merits! One day we'll get both!

[jds1bio]

Here's the reported quote referred to by the topic's title:

"It's funny because the RPG in the context of the current world is - well, it's not specifically irrelevant, but it's becoming less relevant in and of itself," he continued. "It's more a function of, 'Hey, this game has a great story.'
For us, [it's] having that emotion but also having other great features like combat and persistence of character progression and stuff."

I just read that article.  Regarding DA2 - are the doctors actually trying to unwind the goodwill built up here between the community and the devs over the past few weeks?  Just because DA2 sold less than DA:O (so far) and other games like shooters that have RPG elements in them, that means that RPGs are less relevant now?  Then will the marriage of the best of DA:O and DA2 also be less relevant, or more relevant because it has emotion and great features like combat and persistence of character progression and "stuff"?

Here's where it really loses me though.  Just because so many gamers have said "I play BioWare games for the story", doesn't mean those gamers are deeming the RPG irrelevant.  No one says "I eat Reese's candies for the peanut butter" and deems the Hershey chocolate they are made with to be irrelevant. 

Also, when candy gets mixed into ice cream or baked in cookies, it doesn't mean that candy itself is becoming less relevant.  It's actually more relevant, since it retains its own identity while making other desserts that much more interesting.  But you don't necessarily tear down candy just because ice cream and cookies may currently be more popular desserts overall.

So if you want to continue to follow the popular trends and make your own ice cream (shooters/ARPGs) and bake your own cookies (MMOs), fine.  Perhaps you will want to undo this statement and acknowledge that your RPG roots (candy) are as relevant as ever.

But if you are thinking of not calling your games in the future RPGs, and calling them, say, whatchamacallits
instead - unfortunately that name has already been taken.

Modifié par jds1bio, 23 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[mcneil_1]

KLUME777 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

The line about blending different genres really disturbs me. Keep them distinct! Chocolate may be more popular than strawberry icecream, but strawberry fans aren't going to suddenly love chocolate, and even chocolate fans will eventually become dismayed by the lack of choice.

Role playing elements and stronger stories are improving FPSs.

Name one recent FPS with an actual decent story line released in the last two years that isn't a generic military cliche. Or some slapped on "unlocking component" for mp.  It's ok I'll wait.

While not recent, SW: Republic Commando had some memorable characters and story. Of coarse, im biased, as it is my favourite FPS of all time.

I enjoyed Republic Commando as well (Scorch was quite funny at times )

[Slayer299]

aries1001 wrote...

I'm not sure what genre the first Bioshock was, to me, it was a blend of rpg and shooter with a decent story, Deus Ex (the first one) was similar, Stalker was similar to both of those. FEAR also had a decent story, I found.

The lead dev of Bioshock (who's name I forget and feeling too lazy to lookup) said that it was a FPS, not a RPG.

@mcneil - Scorch was funny, but I thought banter between Sev and Scorch was best between those two.

Modifié par Slayer299, 23 août 2011 - 09:29 .

[ApostleinTriumph]

mrcrusty wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

I think they are trying to lose their fans.

I don't think so.

I think it's buttering up expectations for future games. It's pretty much a "we won't go back to making RPGs like we use to" type interview where he tries to justify the direction where they're going in.

I don't mind. I'll actually be grateful when they can just come outright and say they don't want to make RPGs anymore, but interactive narratives stacked with combat instead. Maybe then we can get to acknowledging that an RPG consists of a variety of mechanics and gameplay elements and not "a story with choices" or that stuffing a game full of cinematics makes it a better RPG.

Who knows, it'd probably result in better games too as they wouldn't have to keep one eye on their newer market while keeping the other eye on their old one.

The usual **** that the devs do. Justify your terrible decisions with vague terms while watering down a franchise.

[Mike_Neel]

Just another Bioware copy paste response to the "We want FPS money and RPG isn't the way to get it with todays crowd."

Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with wanting to make a success of your game and see great numbers coming in. But throwing out the complexities of an RPG in favor of the FPS formula of "center screen on bad guy, press fire button to win" isn't the way to go. Just look at all the jokes made about the awesome button in DA2. It's obviously not what the majority of RPG gamers want, but we're at the point where we don't have the same money and consumer numbers to throw around as the frat house who just came back from the Modern Warfare midnight launch. So I don't really blame them for looking us over in favor of better returns, I just wish they weren't still making soothing noises at us like we're still the demographic they're trying to please.

Just shut up about this "Streamlined experience, wider audience, core fans shouldn't worry" and just come out and say "Look RPG gamers. You make us enough money to live off on, sure, look at Bethesda, they're doing fine. But we want Activision and Bungie and Epic dollars. We want the huge midnight release events, we want the celebrities coming out for our games. And we're not going to get that with you. It's been great, it's not you, it's us, but it's time we moved on and started seeing other people."

[Saintthanksgiving]

A real friend stabs you in the front.

Bioware is laying it out there, so there is no confusion this time around.

The RPG is dead.

[Tommy6860]

Merilsell wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My primary interest is in a good story, everything else I am not that adamant about. Now the irony of Bioware's statement is that I am finding their stories and story telling to be in decline recently.

I second this. If a story fails to grip my interest or isn't engaging in any way, the game mechanics can be as good as it want. I wouldn't play this game for long and quickly toss it aside for another one again. As it happened with DA2, where I was bored. Completely so. Also I second the last part. I have the same feeling here. Unfortunately.

So, if DA2 had a great story, the rest of the game elements would have been OK?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My primary interest is in a good story, everything else I am not that adamant about. Now the irony of Bioware's statement is that I am finding their stories and story telling to be in decline recently.

I second this. If a story fails to grip my interest or isn't engaging in any way, the game mechanics can be as good as it want. I wouldn't play this game for long and quickly toss it aside for another one again. As it happened with DA2, where I was bored. Completely so. Also I second the last part. I have the same feeling here. Unfortunately.

So, if DA2 had a great story, the rest of the game elements would have been OK?

I would have tolerated them personally, yes.
Like I tolerated Alpha Protocol being a broken game and enjoyed it much more than DA2.

[Willybot]

Mike_Neel wrote...

Just another Bioware copy paste response to the "We want FPS money and RPG isn't the way to get it with todays crowd."

Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with wanting to make a success of your game and see great numbers coming in. But throwing out the complexities of an RPG in favor of the FPS formula of "center screen on bad guy, press fire button to win" isn't the way to go. Just look at all the jokes made about the awesome button in DA2. It's obviously not what the majority of RPG gamers want, but we're at the point where we don't have the same money and consumer numbers to throw around as the frat house who just came back from the Modern Warfare midnight launch. So I don't really blame them for looking us over in favor of better returns, I just wish they weren't still making soothing noises at us like we're still the demographic they're trying to please.

Just shut up about this "Streamlined experience, wider audience, core fans shouldn't worry" and just come out and say "Look RPG gamers. You make us enough money to live off on, sure, look at Bethesda, they're doing fine. But we want Activision and Bungie and Epic dollars. We want the huge midnight release events, we want the celebrities coming out for our games. And we're not going to get that with you. It's been great, it's not you, it's us, but it's time we moved on and started seeing other people."

Cynical, but accurate. The stance after DAO seemed to shift from 'Creating the Best Quality Product We Can' to 'Make Whatever Changes Necessary To Bring On Demographics X And Y'. I can't fault them for attempting to increase the number of people purchasing their product, but one shouldn't be too shocked when things (previous customers) get lost in the transition.

[Saintthanksgiving]

Its basically saying that RPG fans are a fringe group,who should be grateful for whatever they get.

Damm the preorder sales numbers... they mask the true hideous injury that we have suffered.

Bioware.... EA.... a plague on both your houses.