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Greg Zeschuk - "RPGs are becoming less relevant"


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#101
FieryDove

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KLUME777 wrote...

While not recent, SW: Republic Commando had some memorable characters and story. Of coarse, im biased, as it is my favourite FPS of all time.


Squad based shooters can be fun. I loved RC. If it had leveling it could have been an RPG hybrid. You found loot ammo/weapons and it had lots of banter in each section of the story. Scorch and Sev were awesome. Image IPB I also like SW and had read the book too. If you played both games you notice ME had assets that looked just like it. Same engine maybe?

#102
Uzzy

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I'm reminded of a quote that I once saw somewhere. Not really sure where, but eh, it's a goodun. It rather fits Bioware's situation at the moment.

'He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.'

#103
Imrahil_

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'He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.'

It's Nietzsche: "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

Just out of curiosity, how do you figure it applies here?

#104
Slayer299

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I think Uzzy meant it along the line of Bioware desperately wanting Activision's numbers for their games (CoD and Co.) and along the way BW became just like Activision (Insanely greedy and low standards to acheive them) is.

Modifié par Slayer299, 24 août 2011 - 01:13 .


#105
Tommy6860

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My primary interest is in a good story, everything else I am not that adamant about. Now the irony of Bioware's statement is that I am finding their stories and story telling to be in decline recently.


I second this. If a story fails to grip my interest or isn't engaging in any way, the game mechanics can be as good as it want. I wouldn't play this game for long and quickly toss it aside for another one again. As it happened with DA2, where I was bored. Completely so. Also I second the last part. I have the same feeling here. Unfortunately.


So, if DA2 had a great story, the rest of the game elements would have been OK?


I would have tolerated them personally, yes.
Like I tolerated Alpha Protocol being a broken game and enjoyed it much more than DA2.


AP's main problems were with the enemy AI and combat system for me, and that ruined a good story since it made it near unplayable. I tend to not separate the two if one is outstanding, for good or worse in their respects. But in AP's case, I could not forgive it. I do find it interesting that you would still find combat waves and drops, unrealistic fighting elements, overly recycled enviroments and a near total lack of companion interaction and customization OK, if the story is engaging enough. For me, that would just break a great story. I'd rather just read a book, the experience would be far more fulfilling.

#106
Kilshrek

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Uzzy wrote...

I'm reminded of a quote that I once saw somewhere. Not really sure where, but eh, it's a goodun. It rather fits Bioware's situation at the moment.

'He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.'


Didn't they have that in BG? I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think this is the square peg for the square hole.

#107
AmstradHero

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Most of the article focuses on selling The Old Republic, with the RPG comment being a throw-away line that people seem to be reading more into than it actually means. As stated by many others, "RPG elements" have become increasingly pushed into other games, which has merely exacerbated the fight over "what makes an RPG?"

People have called BioShock an RPG because of the choice posed in that. I'd argue that it isn't because the choice is entirely moot. People praised The Witcher, but I found it a horrible game because I was handed a predefined character and personality and while I got to make choices, I was never roleplaying because I was always assigned Geralt's reasoning and rationale for any choice I might have made. People hated Dragon Age 2 and said it wasn't really an RPG because of an inability to affect the outcome of key events. 

The story was the staple of the RPG for a long time, but now stories are common across many genres. Not all of them are great stories, but some RPGs have some pretty mediocre stories as well. Then you could argue it comes down to choices, but you occasionally get those in other games too. What about number based combat mechanics? Nope, they exist in other games as well.

At what point do the combinations of "RPG elements" make a game "an RPG" or "not an RPG"? As a blanket statement, I'd say that provided i can define the personality of my character and carry out actions and select dialogue that supports that character, the game is an RPG.  However, under this definition, the Witcher isn't an RPG, and hence all its fans will burn me at the stake. And where does this leave games like the "action RPG"... or heck, even things like the old gold box games, or Eye of the Beholder, or Dungeon Master? RPGs ain't RPGs.


As for how Greg's statement reflects on BioWare's reputation, I think it's merely stating something that should have been fairly evident to people for a little while now.

BioWare have definitely been trending away from "classic" RPG mechanics for combat. There's a movement away from having a character's success determined primarily by the numbers of the character's stats and the players high level strategic direction, and a movement towards having a primarily reflex/controller-eye coordination based combat. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but without some level of control, it takes away the feeling of character progression that has effectively been a mainstay of the RPG genre since its inception.

If all the enemies you are fighting look exactly the same throughout your entire adventure, regardless of the deluge of new and deadly skills and powers you can unleash upon your enemies, there's still a feeling of a lack of progression. In an RPG, enemy variety matters - which is part of why enemy scaling as seen in Dragon Age and Mass Effect makes the game feel less of an epic than older games that would start by pitting you against rats and eventually have you working your way up to fighting golems, giants, dragons and demons. I'd suggest this may be one of the major contributors to people thinking that they "don't feel like an RPG" in these two series.

I think BioWare have some careful ground to tread in terms of managing the expectations of existing and new fans. I'm a huge fan of their work, but there are signs that give me pause for thought. The development of the Dragon Age franchise concerns me a little in that there seems to be a push to "tell the BioWare Dragon Age story" while at the same time telling players that "they get to create their own Dragon Age story." 

This is a no-spoiler forum, so I can't go into detail, but the return of certain characters and the suggestion that other events have happened regardless of the player's choices suggest to me that the writers are failing in presenting the players with choices that they are willing to let them follow through with. In this age of player agency, that's a terrible crime, and makes me concerned for BioWare's storytelling in the future.

Is this "the death of BioWare"? Hardly. To me, it's just reinforcing BioWare's trend to push the RPG genre towards a more action-oriented market that's more accessible for people who don't have the patience to mull over hundreds of different character builds and don't want to read swathes of text while playing video games.

Personally, I'd still love to see games that have that multitude of character builds and gloriously dense narratives. But in the modern AAA game market, those aren't sellers, and BioWare's reputation is now such that it can't "go back" to those sorts of titles. If anyone knows of a developer that creates such games, I'll happily support them. I'd even throw up my hand to join their development team and assist. But equally, I've still really liked BioWare's recent offerings despite their movement away from that style of game, and would jump at the chance to work on one of their titles too.

It's horses for courses, people.

#108
Gunderic

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Atakuma wrote...

blaidfiste wrote...

Yep, Skyrim is going to be awesome.  Let's just hope the folks at Bethesda didn't get the memo that "RPGs are becoming less relevant."  I don't want another action game featuring a fully voice acted Nord protagonist lol.

That's exactly what you'll be getting minus the PC VO. Bethesda are streamlining the crap out of Skyrim with less skills, less spells and more focus on combat.

Edit: For the record I don't believe any of that is actually a bad thing, just trying to point out that it's going down a similar path.


Even a streamlined Bethesda game would still have a large enough skill set to choose from... I hope.

Modifié par Gunderic, 24 août 2011 - 09:08 .


#109
Maconbar

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AmstradHero wrote...


This is a no-spoiler forum, so I can't go into detail, but the return of certain characters and the suggestion that other events have happened regardless of the player's choices suggest to me that the writers are failing in presenting the players with choices that they are willing to let them follow through with. In this age of player agency, that's a terrible crime, and makes me concerned for BioWare's storytelling in the future.


Didn't that happen between BG:1 and BG:2 also?

#110
AmstradHero

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Maconbar: Certainly, and I have absolutely zero problem with that, because players were never led to believe that their choices would carry over from one game to the next. In Dragon Age they were, but the development of the narrative is such that those decisions aren't being respected, which is where the problem lies.

#111
Sakatox

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Oh wow.

It's like BioWare suddenly does not remember how to make rpgs.

RPGs back in the good days meant - for tabletops and pnp - a character created by the player, for the player, and you had all the freedom.

On the PC, it was a little more restricted, but they still tried to give the same experience.

Da2 suddenly is selling so bad rpgs are now irrelevant? Good job BioWare, you hate money, we know. 


EDIT: BioWare is becoming less and less relevant.

Modifié par Sakatox, 24 août 2011 - 09:16 .


#112
Morroian

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AmstradHero wrote...

Maconbar: Certainly, and I have absolutely zero problem with that, because players were never led to believe that their choices would carry over from one game to the next.

Yeah but you could argue thats only because there's so much more communicaiton and niteraction between developers and players now.

#113
PsychoBlonde

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mrcrusty wrote...

Who knows, it'd probably result in better games too as they wouldn't have to keep one eye on their newer market while keeping the other eye on their old one.


I'm in favor of game companies deciding who their audience is, that's for sure.  Otherwise you get games that aren't much fun for anyone.

Gameplay in Bioware's games has always been pretty bad.  Too many fights that were all pretty much the same.  Maybe a few puzzles.  That they want to improve on this is a good thing.  I'd sure like to play a game where I don't get completely bored with the combat 2/3 of the way through and finish the thing on the easiest difficulty just so I can see how it ends.

#114
KnightofPhoenix

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Sakatox wrote...
EDIT: BioWare is becoming less and less relevant.


I agree with the sentiment, but not the rationale behind it.

I once thought of Bioware as unique in the RPG with great stories genre (back home, my access to the internet and info was limited). But now, alternatives are showing up, that not only equal it, but imo surpass it almost in every way. 

I think they need to reconsider some of their policies and outlook, if they want to thrive in a more competitive environment.

#115
Sakatox

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sakatox wrote...
EDIT: BioWare is becoming less and less relevant.


I agree with the sentiment, but not the rationale behind it.

I once thought of Bioware as unique in the RPG with great stories genre (back home, my access to the internet and info was limited). But now, alternatives are showing up, that not only equal it, but imo surpass it almost in every way. 

I think they need to reconsider some of their policies and outlook, if they want to thrive in a more competitive environment.


They also need to give up on harping the fact of appealing to a wider audience, the call of duty audience, the lgbt community, etc.

Just give out a good rpg and people will buy. Is it hard to do something like DA:O? Not at all, it wasn't that stellar or great, a good time kill, but miles better than DA2.

Their whole approach to things reek of EA corruption.

#116
Zanallen

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Sakatox wrote...

They also need to give up on harping the fact of appealing to a wider audience, the call of duty audience, the lgbt community, etc.

Just give out a good rpg and people will buy. Is it hard to do something like DA:O? Not at all, it wasn't that stellar or great, a good time kill, but miles better than DA2.

Their whole approach to things reek of EA corruption.


DA:O would have never been released if it wasn't for EA.

#117
KnightofPhoenix

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I think above all, they need to show some respect to customers. Not sure if this should apply to Bioware in its entirety or the DA team.

Comments like details are too confusing so we won't have them are just...stupid let's be blunt. Attention to detail shows care, attention and effort. I am not a huge fan of ME2, but their attention to detail was remarkable. TW2 was very attentive to detail. Comments like that are just insulting our intelligence.

And then we hear that we had a boss fight just for the sake of it at the end of DA2, when the writers didn't want it. Doesn't that stand against the claim that Bioware is focusing on story? How is making a boss fight for the sake of it have any ounce of respect for the story the writers were trying to tell (which I didn't think was good to begin with). How does it have any ounce of respect for players? Aren't you trying to appeal to players who want to enjoy a good story?

It's really stuff like that, they should imperatively avoid. I disagree with a lot of their fundamental design choices, but stuff like that is insulting my intelligence and disrespecting me as a player and customer.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 août 2011 - 09:55 .


#118
FieryDove

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Zanallen wrote...

DA:O would have never been released if it wasn't for EA.


EA, the savior of game development studios everywhere! In other words I disagree with your post.

#119
Zanallen

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FieryDove wrote...

EA, the savior of game development studios everywhere! In other words I disagree with your post.


Disagree if you like, but it is quite possible that Bioware would not have been able to finish and release DA:O without the sell to EA. And they definately wouldn't have been able to recoop the costs if it wasn't for the EA decision to make the game multiplatform.

#120
stoicsentry2

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Hilarious. When will they learn to just shut up? They are only making things worse.

#121
Zanallen

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stoicsentry2 wrote...

Hilarious. When will they learn to just shut up? They are only making things worse.


Meh, I sort of agree. At this point, nothing that Bioware says is going to do any good. And people are going to take their words and cast them in the worst possible light while other people jump on the bandwagon and the negative reation will grow and build on itself. Bioware needs to just stay quiet and work on showing us instead of telling us.

#122
Teddie Sage

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Bioware RPGs are becoming JRPGs (ironically) little by little.

#123
Sylvius the Mad

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Zanallen wrote...

DA:O would have never been released if it wasn't for EA.

What reason do you have to believe that?  DAO was in development for years without a publisher at all.  I imagine the worst case scenario for BioWare would have been a self-published digital download PC-only release (especially since they already had an online store).  Cancelling the game at that late stage would have been lunacy.

#124
FieryDove

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Zanallen wrote...

Disagree if you like, but it is quite possible that Bioware would not have been able to finish and release DA:O without the sell to EA. And they definately wouldn't have been able to recoop the costs if it wasn't for the EA decision to make the game multiplatform.


We don't know it could have been released just fine. But that is moot now.

#125
TheMadCat

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Zanallen wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

EA, the savior of game development studios everywhere! In other words I disagree with your post.


Disagree if you like, but it is quite possible that Bioware would not have been able to finish and release DA:O without the sell to EA. And they definately wouldn't have been able to recoop the costs if it wasn't for the EA decision to make the game multiplatform.


Eh? BioWare was controlled and funded by a very well financed investment firm prior to being bought by EA, why wouldn't they have been able to finish and release it?

Modifié par TheMadCat, 24 août 2011 - 10:23 .