Zanallen wrote...
Yrkoon wrote...
If More and more games are becoming RPG-like, Then how in the maker's name can anyone say that RPG's are becoming less relevant?
He isn't saying that role-playing games are becoming less relevant. He is saying that the term "RPG" is becoming less relevant. Which makes sense if genres are beginning to belnd together. He is saying that all that really matters is that it is a good game with a strong story, fun mechanics and a sense of progression.
What a real rpg needs is: EDIT: CLARIFICATION: What makes an rpg an RPG and not something else.
1.Rulesets: Let it be rulesets from pnp tabletop adaptions, editions or whatever, self made ones, or a mixed bag.
Without, it turns into DBZ combat where pc and npc alike say: I'M STRONGER AHHHH, NO I'M STRONGER AHHHHHHHHHH in an infinte loop of ultimate ****tyness.
Said rulesets should be followed at all times and only ignored if with good reason.
See how not to do it: Meredith and her sword. Makes no sense, it should be lethal to everyone.
Same goes with raw lyrium deposits or any kind of lyrium.
Teleporting enemies, Sareebas, mages and emissaries come to my mind when this gets COMPLETELY ignored.
Does not mean only turn based combat. Fallout New Vegas comes to mind. Both options given.
Streamlining statistics and important numbers in damage calculation and whatever else forumlas into meaningless fluff takes fun out of FUN GAMES and FUN STUFF in FUN RPGS. They become soulless.
2. Actual Choices to form your character:
Seriously. DA2 is a bunch of yeses with none no options. AT ALL.
In a proper rpg, saying no opens up a new branch, or an alternative branch that DOES NOT lead TO THE SAME OUTCOME as THE OTHER PATHS.
Dragon Age 2 in this regard is a jrpg. They have bashed jrpgs by saying putting a j before rpg does not make it one. Well, DA2 has no j and it is certainly not an rpg.
In jrpgs, You have the YES-YES scenarios. Do you want to go out of the town and pick daisies while the obligatory town destruction and pillage sequence occurs where everything you were told not to do or were forbidden to do or touch was done, touched and stolen? Yes/No(Yes.)-> Yes-> prooceding with story.
No-> PLEASE SAY YES? Yes/No(Yes.) -> ad infinitum.
DA2 only stands out from other jrpgs because it has larger YES loops with more dialog. So much choices, the leaf/nice yes response, the aggressive/judgemental yes response, the witty/charming yes response, the occasional challenging yes, the romance yes and the investigate yes that does not lead anywhere.
Beyond that, you do not have anything.
You can't say no to main quests, you can not approach it in a different way, unable to completely ignore a quest and get another one instead. You only skip quests if it's allowed by their stellar writing - see sidequests. It's not choice when the only thing is either do it or get ignored completely.
Clearing up what choices are:
-Diverse, Different options that do not lead to the same outcome regardless of option, open up alternative approaches, different solutions or something different entirely. Does NOT mean skipping content and hamfisting everything under one solution with two lines of changed wording.
Do not forget that EVERY single one, each and every one of them are important and should have consequences, both foreseeable and unforeseen. NO RETCONNING.
+Addendum:
Like saving both of them in the beginning.
siding with the arishok.
Not go to kirkwall.
Not care about Kirkwall in the end at all.
What works against meaningful, less cosmetic choices:
The dialog wheel, the voiced protagonist, a set background, romances.
3. Plot, of any kind, that's at least overarching.
DA2 does not have any. Act 1 is get rich or die trying, in the weakest and most hamfisted manner. Hawke is everywhere, butting into other folk's business because he just has nothing better to do, or if he has (got the monnniez and the map) then the game tells him
DO SIDEQUESTS, POOPYHEAD. The quests are unimpotant, you are just shoved in there only TO REACT, not influence happenings. You are watching a story unfold that you can not alter in any way. Framed narrative is okay, but even in that, this is supposed to be an rpg with branching.
See ending for complete ignoring of previous cosmetic choices.
4. Inventory system: Complex inventory system with tabs or pages, examinable and more meaningful than LOOT + PLOT + EQUIPMENT. That's casualization to that top and bottom.
PLOT items shouldn't even be regarded as plot items, just put as unsellable and indestructable. Breaking the 4th wall is unneccesary. Inventory management can also be fun.
Limiting the inventory to
120 or any kind of number in an endless loop of items is silly and unneccesary. See Diablo 2, that did inventory management and inventory tetris perfectly. you knew every item was meaningful or was worth leaving behind for more important items. You did NOT fill your inventory with JUNK.
It's like you're mixing JRPG inventory system with wrpg limitedness and sensefulness.
5. Complex character creation that is more than:
Human rogue, human mage and human warrior. More classes, more species, more races, more everything.
Origins had the right start, yet you keep limiting things in here.
We
didn't need Medieval commander shepard, our warden was pefectly fine thank you.
6. The difference between tabletops and crpgs:
In tabletop pnp games, you create a character fit to your own desires completely, with maybe a little background chosen or going original completely. This opens up loads of paths - infinite amount - of roleplaying possibilites.
After that, you can do whatever the hell you want, even if you choose an adventure module.
A good DM lets you deviate from it, maybe eventually try to lead you to the objective at hand, but still let's you do whatever you want.
Say we have to go to a dungeon. The party decides against the DM's wishes and goes to the forest next to the dungeon. A bad DM threatens to kill the party or some such, tries to enforce the story on the players. A good DM watches and plays its cards accordingly. We go ahead and sexualize everything from the smallest rocks to the largest living beings literally in the forest and in a 20 km radius around the forest. A bad DM then throws a temper tantrum and plunges us into the story or kill us right there. A GOOD DM lets us continue for as long as we want, but reminds us friendly that we chose a story and we should do it sometime - if we want to.
In actual video game terms, this means OPENING UP atleast 3 - not 2 or 1 - branches of how to proceed in the overall story, the quests and everything else in between. That is diversity and good storytelling.
What DA2 actually does is: Disregard sanity, acquire HATE.(thanks mrcrusty.)
A bad game - or in this case, DA2, let's you complete quests only one way or two, the end result being the same everytime, the story's end being the same every time, etc.
And every choice you make is railroaded into options the writers thought fitting. Why can't i act out of "character"?
Why doesn't anyone regard my character as such if i'm a blood mage, for example? The answer BioWare gave to this is wrong on all levels. It does not matter if development cycles dictate and do differently, in stages. You don't develop an RPG, you create a story with possibilities and then bring it into code form. Accounting every little small detail as possible, from the lowliest, meaningless kick the flyer choices to kill something or not.
In tabletop pnps, romance is fluff, romance is just another option.
In pc games, romances are kind of fluff.
In DA2 and recent BioWare titles, including the upcoming ones, ROMANCES are AS VITAL TO THE PLOT as say THE VILLAIN.
Focusing on the wrong things - losing focus.
+1. If the promise is meaningful choices and importing, then they shouldn't be retconned to hell and back or get ignored completely.
See Anders, Zevran, Leliana, etc.
I am pretty sure i forgot stuff and i may have left some spoilers in there,i tried to be careful. I think i forgot some things, please let me add it to the list if i didn't include something.
Modifié par Sakatox, 26 août 2011 - 03:59 .
Ce sujet est fermé
Retour en haut
