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[Augustei]

With the mages now fighting for their freedom, I find myself wondering what exactly are their chances of sucessfully obtaining it. What are their chances of winning this war with the Templars?

Inevitably the involvement in this war will eventually consist of more then just these two factions but taking all factors into account who has the higher chance of winning do you think?

Do the mages numbers rival that of the Templar order or are they greater or far less than the numbers of the templars?
The mages are hardly Unified, Spread out across thedas. They have no protocols or measures in place to make unification easy really - A place where they will all instinctly go to unite and fight, it seems they will hide in the woods or something.

The Templars may have a source of unification however. Dispite them no longer taking chantry orders they still have the Knight-Vigilant to unite behind. However if that is truely possible remains to be seen for he may take the chantrys side, keep out of it or die in Asunder.
Both sides have their training, but Templars have training specific to dealing with mages whereas Mages dont have this advantage.

The core factor seems to come down to allys and assistance. The Templars seem to have lost the nobles respect in Kirkwall will this view spread to the rest of the Free Marches city states?

King Alistair seems to support the mages however the kings power stems from the support of the nobility of Ferelden. Would Alistair have their support in helping the mages?

People seem to think the Tevinter Imperium would support the mages, however David Gaider pointed out their magisters dont like foreign mages seeing them as political competition so Tevinter support seems unlikely.

The Templar states: " the people of Thedas see them as saviors and holy warriors, champions
of all that is good, armed with piety enough to protect the world from
the ravages of foul magic." Does this mean that the people of thedas are more likely to support the Templars? Orsino seems to think this as well when he says something along the lines of "we wont find support anywhere else"

Nevarra - Nevarra has a history of Bloodshed with their neighbouring Orlais and relations between the two nations dont seem to be good. It is theorised that the reason Emperess Celene wished to marry Cailan was to ensure that when Nevarra became powerful enough to directly challenge Orlais, Orlais would not have to fight a war on two fronts. The Chantry and Orlais seem closely intertwined - With the Divine supporting Orlesian invasions in times past. The Chantry is a core foundation for the Orlesian empires founding and one of its greatest strengths. Were People to side against the chantry it would weaken Orlais as a result - Would Nevarra take this course of action and support the mages to weaken their enemies?

Rivain - The Chantry never quite took hold here like it did the rest of thedas, the Rivani's having great respect for magic as their Rivani witch seers seem to guide their people. Would they support the mages?

The Qunari - In the Exalted Marches against the Qunari the two primary factions to oppose the qunari were the Mages and Templars - The Mages to counter the Qunari's advanced technology and the Templars to unify the people and form the line of defence as they do in Exalted Marches. With these two factions now fighting each other it seems a good time for the Qunari to invade. Neither faction would benefit at all under their rule, the mages loosing their freedom completely, being caged, leashed and bound. The Chantry collapsing. Would an invasion be likely in your opinion and a compromise between the Templars and mages need to be met? Who would come out on top in these negotiations should they occour?

What is your opinion on all this? What are the mages chances of suceeding? Who do you speculate will come out on top in the coming events? And who do you hope will come out on top?
What type of support do you think each of the factions will obtain?

[Dave of Canada]

Apologies, I didn't read your entire post. Though I've been itching to write this for a while, so...

I'm personally on the side that the Mages have little to no chance for victory assuming nothing drastic happens, assuming we're dealing with the same fraternities and they haven't dissolved into nothing. Let's face it, now all mages want this war and they're mostly a merry band of militia with magical abilities rather than an army.

Any sign of leadership coming from them will possibly be the Grand Enchanter, assuming he isn't a Chantry Loyalists (who are allied with Aequitarians) due to his role as Advisor to the Divine, which many mages could possibly not feel entitled to respect/obey due to never having met him in their life.

In addition to this, Mages will have to deal with the entirely different mindsets from each fraternities.

[*]Aequitarians won't work with Blood Mages.
[*]Isolationists might feel it would be better to just go away rather than risk countless lives.
[*]Lucrosians might be completely pissed off that it's cutting in their profits (assuming they aren't working with the Templar).
[*]Loyalists will work with the Templar.
[*]Libertarians will feel at home (Resolutionists fall in this catagory).
[*]Blood Mages (not sure if they'd fall under any catagory) doing... blood magey stuff, which we know pisses off a lot of other mages.

While the Templar would be unified under one mindset; stop the mages, otherwise they wouldn't have left the Chantry and help cause the gigantic mess. They'd be unified and their capable of running as an army, they'd also obey and follow the Knight-Vigilant assuming he doesn't stay with the Divine.

In addition to this, Mage sympathy isn't likely to be that high throughout Thedas after what Anders did.

Kirkwall was notable for having mage sympathy amongst the Nobles, though Hawke's influence can make them support the Templar (At the start of Act 3: Side with Meredith, Nobles side with the Templar. Side with Orsino, Nobles side with the Mages.).

Throw in a few explosions, rampaging abominations, blood mages, a dead Grand Cleric, the Chant's sayings that an attack on the house of the Maker is an attack on the Maker himself on-top of the already scared and highly religious commoners? Recipe for little in the way of sympathy.

Though the Chantry's Templar Order does have enemies, we're not going to witness a simple war of Templar vs Mages.

[*] I wouldn't be surprised if the Dalish mobilized and marched to assist the Mages, though it's entirely possible they don't due to their nature of not giving a damn about anything but themselves.

[*] Ferelden's (entirely optional) Warden-King has shown sympathy for the mages, though we're dealing with optional content here. Working with each choice available:

Anora (or Cousland+Anora) will possibly result in little to not sympathy, I doubt Anora would risk compromising her position as Queen and angering the religious commoners / nobles. We don't hear anything about the Ferelden / Orlais war either, so Ferelden has less motivation to move against Orlais and the Chantry.

Alistair (or Cousland+Alistair) will possibly result in the most sympathy for mages, Alistair is highly influential and he has nobody to counter-balance his idiocy when it comes to politics. He'd probably risk ruining Ferelden if it meant protecting the mages and angering everybody throughout Ferelden. There's also some motivation to march on Orlais when it's weak because of the upcoming Ferelden / Orlais war.

Alistair + Anora will probably lead to a mix of the both. That or not reaching anywhere, as Alistair will try to do what's right in his mind and Anora steps on his toes. Vice versa.

[*] Rivain doesn't seem to me as somebody who'd jump into the war to protect Mages, their respect for mages is nice but it doesn't seem like they've got beef with anybody. They strike me more as neutral territory where the Mages could likely build an encampment and reside without fear of being chased down, though wouldn't have their soldiers on their side.

[*] Tevinter, assuming their capable of diverting resources from the Qunari war, could possibly assist in protecting the mages. Though it's difficult to say, would they jump at the chance to damage the Chantry? They don't seem that sympathetic to the Mages of their own nation, let alone the others. They'd likely jump in if they'd benefit from it.

[*] Nevarra... I don't know, they're probably the biggest ally the mages could claim assuming they'd do it (I don't know their populace's thoughts) Though we've got a Nevarran Royal (Cassandra) working with the Chantry and trying to stop the war.

We're probably going to learn something important regarding the mages (which could probably throw things in their favor) in the Asunder novel, considering this thing: "There, he finds more than he bargained for, and changes the fate of his fellow mages forever."

Off-topic speculation: I'd laugh if the White Divine was a thrall under the control of the Blood Mage Grand Enchanter who set everything up, including the planned Kirkwall Exalted March, in order to try and cause the mages to rise up.

Though that'd probably cause more tensions amongst the already divided mage group.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[Augustei]

Oh yeah forgot about the dalish and grand enchanter.. Once one group starts standing up to oppressors more follow like shartan and the elves did when they joined Andraste.. But since that didn't turn out that great for them after that it may have ruined their chances of joining an uprising again.

I had a thought that Corypheus would go on to take over tevinter and go to war with the grey wardens / the anderfels as a means of ensuring those who posed the greatest threat to him were annihilated.. Plus revenge for him as well. Would be cool if that happened, If it did that sort of cancels out Tevinter and Anderfels support. Unless in DA3 we pick our origin a Mage or templar loyalist and do what the warden did solving the factions problems in return for their support to our cause that'd be cool.

As for the Grand Enchanter, I guess it comes down to whether or not the chantry elects him or the fraternities of enchanters like they do for the First Enchanters. If so though he is more likely to be a loyalist since the Antiquarians hold the most numbers in the fraternities and they tend to side with the chantry.

But for someone to hold the power and influence that the Grand Enchanter does and to serve by the divine the chantry would probably have measures in place to ensure he was a faithful servant of the chantry instead of an outspoken freedom preache.

But yeah I think your right, the mages chances dont look to great at all.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 23 août 2011 - 10:01 .

[Ausstig]

Your forgetting the Anderfels, most fervent Chantry supporters bar none. Also most feared warriors in the world.

I think the way will be more 'low boil' then what people expect smaller conflicts between groups of abominations, ie mages, and templars, rather then a world shattering conflict.

[Urzon]

I'm thinking that Sandal's Prophecy will come into being during Asunder. The "One day the magic will come back. All of it." seems very pro-mage. If everyone suddenly gains the power to start throwing fireballs, i can see that causing mass confusion on the global scale. Plus, the mages are the only ones with training on how to control it, meaning everyone has to turn to them for support. Because other wise, demons and abomination will be running around everywhere, as far as the eye could see.

And we get to hopefully see Fenris' face when he discovers he can do magic now, making him the very thing he hates. MHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Wulfram]

I'd see the likely outcome as being a lengthy guerilla war. The mages can't defeat the Templars head on, but I don't see how the Templars can hunt down all the mages either.

So they'll probably carry on fighting a dirty low level war until the Qunari invade, or another Blight happens.

[Gervaise]

It all comes down to whether there is some form of unifying leadership of the mages or if each Circle is basically fending for itself.  The argument for the former is that following the destruction of Kirkwall Circle, all surviving 12 Circles in Thedas (Starkhaven having already gone) fall apart within the space of 2 years.   This would suggest some sort of method of communication between Circles that allows each to feel they have more to gain by rebelling than maintaining status quo.   This would suggest that they would then know of certain rendeavouz points where they could join up with other mages.  However, how much mages would be willing to work together is also open to question.

Otherwise, how the mages fair will depend entirely on the individual nation they are in and also how prevelant blood mages really are.  You see, it would appear that blood mages are the only ones who can actively control the minds of others, so a ruler could appear to be sympatheic towards mages purely because a blood mage is behind the scenes pulling the strings.  However, if it became apparent that a mage was too close to the seat of power, then other nobles might well bring that ruler down.  

Essentially how mages are supported will depend on how great a threat those in power perceive them to be and how they are viewed by the general population.  A mage supporting a tyrant to keep them in power, will result in a negative view of mages but may well help the small group of mages serving that tyrant.   A rise in the number of abominations roaming the countryside will also  have an adverse impact.   Generally I would say that the fear of mages is so ingrained that they will have a pretty hard time of it.  Even in Kirkwall I would imagine that the sight of abominations, demons and undead roaming the streets, together with the bombing of the Chantry, might well have had a negative impact on people who might otherwise have been sympathetic to the mage movement.

[jamesp81]

I think the mages start at a big disadvantage. Both sides have critical weaknesses, though.

The mages' biggest problem is disunity and relatively small numbers. They also tend to lack combat training. Being a mage doesn't make one a soldier, although there are soldiers among their ranks.

The big weakness of the templars is supplies. They need lyrium, and they called it quits with the only organization that supplies it to them.

Whichever can exploit the major weaknesses of the other side first, and most thoroughly, will win. The templars start with a big advantage, but time is NOT on their side. If they don't win within a year, they will be facing an organized foe rather than disorganized one.

Politics will play a part as well. If one side can open a stable trading relationship with Orzammar, that side will likely win. It all seems to come back to the lyrium.

[Xilizhra]

Any sign of leadership coming from them will possibly be the Grand Enchanter, assuming he isn't a Chantry Loyalists (who are allied with Aequitarians)

Popping in to say your information is outdated. The Aequitarians changed sides and allied with the Libertarians sometime before Act 3.

[T3H Fish]

I believe the maleficarum who were once Libertariants are now known as the Resolutionists. The thing is with the Mage-Templar war, it's not just mages against templars. Some Templars and Mages are working together to fight the Resolutionists that had taken root, some Templars went completely rouge and are now working autonomously to hunt mages, and some mages may just be simply fleeing from areas with the biggest fighting.

The mages, started with a disadvantage, though we do not know the size of each Circle of Magi in their respective regions nor the ratio of Loyalists to Resolutionists within their ranks. The fact that the war has been raging for three years at the end of DA2 means that the Templars were unable to stop the rouge mages from forming into a unified army and are either losing or at a stand-still currently.

I'm sure the conflict has gotten so large, it has affected all the nations of Thedas or drawing the attention of others.

[Augustei]

T3H Fish wrote...

I believe the maleficarum who were once Libertariants are now known as the Resolutionists. The thing is with the Mage-Templar war, it's not just mages against templars. Some Templars and Mages are working together to fight the Resolutionists that had taken root, some Templars went completely rouge and are now working autonomously to hunt mages, and some mages may just be simply fleeing from areas with the biggest fighting.

The mages, started with a disadvantage, though we do not know the size of each Circle of Magi in their respective regions nor the ratio of Loyalists to Resolutionists within their ranks. The fact that the war has been raging for three years at the end of DA2 means that the Templars were unable to stop the rouge mages from forming into a unified army and are either losing or at a stand-still currently.

I'm sure the conflict has gotten so large, it has affected all the nations of Thedas or drawing the attention of others.

just because its been waging for 3 years though doesn't necessarily mean they have unified, they could be spread out hiding in forests making it difficult for the templars to track them down.

[LobselVith8]

We don't have the information we need to make an accurate analysis, but it seems like the mages have been holding their own, since every remaining Circle of Magi managed to emancipate themselves from being under the control of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. If it was as simple as the templars winning, Cassandra wouldn't be trying to get the mages to negotiate with them and the world wouldn't be "on the brink of war." Hardly sounds like it'll be as one-sided as some people think.

[naledgeborn]

Good if the OGB exists. If he doesn't then what Dave of Canada said.

[TEWR]

I have to say that the mages have a pretty decent shot at winning this war (though most likely the Qunari will end up invading by DAIII's end, which will end the war), for many reasons:

1) The Aequitarians have begun to throw their lot in with the Libertarians, as seen here. It's hard to say what the Lucrosians will do, if anything. It's my opinion though that all of these fraternity goals will be irrelevant in this war. I think all of the mages will band together to fight. Hell the Lucrosians may use their money to hire mercenary companies to help the mages.
2) The Mages have other allies they could call upon. I'll address this further down, as I'm trying to make this post look neat.
3) Templars can die without their lyrium fix, so you have to take into account how many Templars die from that
4) Templars are recruited for their religious zeal, not their morality. Considering how many Templars abused their authority and even went after the population despite having their lyrium fix, I think it's entirely likely that the rogue Templars will ransack villages. And that will weaken their support
5) Templars are dying left and right in the White Spire that's located in Orlais.
6) Either their leader is going to be the Grand Enchanter (which I doubt) or it's going to be Rhys.
7) The Mages' Collective has been increasing the perception of magic by addressing the peoples' issues before the Chantry gets involved. See here


Now, let me address the allies mages have:

• Mages have their families, if they didn't shun them away when they were revealed to know magic.
  
• The Dalish. This isn't just a simple war between two factions. It's a war of ideologies, beliefs, and how to live your life. The Dalish would be fools to not involve themselves and side with the mages. If the mages win, then the Dalish no longer have to worry about losing their Keepers and Firsts to the Templars, though they will still have to be nomads due to the rampant racism towards elves. It's my opinion that the rogue Templars will attack the Dalish clans and this will cause the elves to fight against the Templars.
  
• Nobility. This goes in line with my first point, but nobility can do a lot. Depending on their influence, they can sway more people to the mages' side. Likewise, there may be nobility that supports the Templars.
  
• Ferelden should King Alistair tell the Divine and the Chantry to sod off. Queen Anora might do the same thing, as she granted the Circle Tower independence from the Chantry for a Mage Warden who did the US. If she wasn't pro-mage, she could've just said "We'll erect a memorial for him". Mages could help greatly in the war with Orlais, should it happen. And I don't trust Celene. She's been described as having expansionist policies. I await to be proven wrong however.
  
• Though highly unlikely, Tevinter. But I doubt they'll be anything more than indirect allies who defend their borders from rogue Templars, because involving themselves too much would threaten their power and be detrimental to the support of the mages (not like Tevinter would care about the support the other mages get). Not to mention Tevinter can't wage a war on two sides, since they're the ones who constantly assault Seheron and the Qunari are just going "Meh..."
  
• We also have to account for Rivain and the Chasind. Both societies have free mages and as I've said before the rogue Templars may not take kindly to that. The Chasind and Rivaini will ally themselves with the mages for the same reason the Dalish do. Also, the Chasind are a horde unto themselves, as you can see here, which would greatly bolster the strength of the mages' forces.
  
• My Wardens and my Hawkes. But they're gone so I doubt they'll play a major part in the war.
  
• Orzammar. Dagna's Circle leads to a Circle of free mages being established in Orzammar, where the Chantry contemplates marching on Orzammar. The Chantry and renegade Templars would be fools to assault them since Dwarves are the only people who can safely mine lyrium, save for the occasional accident (Garin). Even if you establish a Chantry there, Burkel gets slain and I imagine the Chantry is removed from Orzammar, which again leads to contemplation of an Exalted March. Even if the Chantry and a Chantry controlled Circle are there, I imagine that Burkel's death leads to the Circle falling under Orzammar jurisdiction, which would lead to a better reason for the Divine to contemplate an Exalted March. Now, I know that if you talk to Gregoir about Dagna's request he'll refuse, but that doesn't necessarily mean Dagna will give up her dream. For all we know, in the years between DAO and DA2's ending she showed up at the Ferelden Circle's doorstep and asked to see the new First Enchanter, and he/she accepted her much to Gregoir's dismay. Also, Ferelden's Circle isn't the only Circle. She could've also gone to the one in Orlais.
  
• If there are some Templars who abandoned the Chantry to help the mages, then them. I assume some Templars would have magic somewhere in their lineage. Maybe even a sister or brother. A son or daughter.
  
• Arl Eamon definitely, for his son. Which goes in line with my nobility point and Ferelden.
  
• If the renegade Templars decide to attack Grey Warden Mages, then the Grey Wardens will indirectly assist. Maybe not going to the mages side, but they will defend themselves which will help the mages.

Personally, I like to entertain the thought that the Divine is an extremely powerful anti-mage mage. By working her way up to the position of Divine, she is now able to further her anti-mage agenda.

I also want to know what the Black Divine looks like. I imagine he looks like Galenth Dysley, A.K.A Super Pope




Oh and Malcolm Hawke. I want to know what he looks like as well. I imagine he has this really epic, badass beard.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 août 2011 - 12:36 .

[Sepewrath]

I don't think you can take into account, anything from the epilogues, because none of it is canon. I don't think this really will be a war between mages and Templar's. Being in all the Templar's have rebelled, they too are enemies of Chantry and will be dealt with just like the mages, so I don't see them retaining any kind of military like organization. They are likely just as scattered as the mages and fighting for their own survival.

Other groups will take advantage of the ensuing chaos, to further their own goals, Qunari, Tevinter, Nevarra; lets not forget, they built their power, just like Orlais did, by conquest. Basically, I think this thing is just going to snowball out of control, the original factions of Mages and Templar's will cease to exist in the grand scheme, as individuals they will be absorbed into a greater conflict. And at the end of the day, depending on who comes out on top(whatever side the PC is on lol) the situation involving just about everything will be re-evaluated.

[Neminea]

Can someone please remind me about why/how the templars rebelled?
I can't remember much about it tbh

[Sepewrath]

We don't know, Varric just mentions it at the end, but we don't know exactly what caused them to split from the Chantry. Might have something to do with the Lyrium, if your going to war with mages, they might have thought they would need more lyrium to boost their resistance and then found out, that it didn't actually do anything and was just a means of control.

[primero holodon]

The problem is that Mages are unified by ability only, there is a massive range of philosophies which has the effect of keeping the mages at eachothers throats as much as the templars. The other major problem is that the people they are at war with, the templars, are trained specifically in how to kill mages, while many mages lack any combat training. as a result the mages are not only fighting an army that is far better trained and equiped, but they are also in the midst of a civil war between the different factions inside the mages. so no, the mages don't have much of a chance.

[Northern Sun]

An advantage for the mages would be that the Templar's rebelling will cut them off from lyrium. How long before Templars desperate for their fix start looting and attacking people to pay for undoubtedly insane prices from lyrium smugglers? That would quickly turn public opinion against templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars were the Chantry's army. By rebelling, they have essentially pulled all the teeth out of the Chantry's bite. They aren't necesarily enemies of the Chantry though. The Chantry is after all pushing for peace, which they wouldn't be, if they considered both sides their enemies.

Edit: And the Templars will only be cut off from Lyrium if you assume the mages actually held the Circle Towers, and thus the Lyrium stores. Otherwise the Templars probably have enough Lyrium to last for a while.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 23 août 2011 - 11:25 .

[Northern Sun]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Edit: And the Templars will only be cut off from Lyrium if you assume the mages actually held the Circle Towers, and thus the Lyrium stores. Otherwise the Templars probably have enough Lyrium to last for a while.

Which is why controlling or destroying lyrium stores should be a top priority for the mages.

We are also forgetting a huge player, Flemeth. I refuse to believe that she didn't play some part in this, being the chessmaster she is. And she will certainly play a part in the future. While her true motives and goals are unknown, I'd bet a few silvers that it will benefit the mages more than the templars.

[Fast Jimmy]

People are quick to dismiss Tevinter as a support for the mages since they have never shown support for the mages of other nations in the past.

In part, I agree with this, as the kingdom itself will not want to seek to bite its thumb at the Chantry as a whole and invite invasion.

However, Tevinters are attracted to power. While the Tevinter kingdom might not openly support mages, it would be foolish not to think many mages from other lands will view it as a safe haven. And all it takes is one power hungry magister to corale these mage refugees under one banner and it would be a lightning rod for rallying.

The problem with this, of course, would be the Kirkwall effect. Meaning abominations might be popping up left, right and center in a full on war with the Chantry. I can't even IMAGINE trying to develop tactics for a military group who may, when their life is in danger, transform into a powerful, crazed creature, harmful to friend and foe alike.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Northern Sun wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Edit: And the Templars will only be cut off from Lyrium if you assume the mages actually held the Circle Towers, and thus the Lyrium stores. Otherwise the Templars probably have enough Lyrium to last for a while.

Which is why controlling or destroying lyrium stores should be a top priority for the mages.

Which is also why the Templars will never let the mages achieve that.

[TEWR]

Sepewrath wrote...

I don't think you can take into account, anything from the epilogues, because none of it is canon. I don't think this really will be a war between mages and Templar's. Being in all the Templar's have rebelled, they too are enemies of Chantry and will be dealt with just like the mages, so I don't see them retaining any kind of military like organization. They are likely just as scattered as the mages and fighting for their own survival.

Other groups will take advantage of the ensuing chaos, to further their own goals, Qunari, Tevinter, Nevarra; lets not forget, they built their power, just like Orlais did, by conquest. Basically, I think this thing is just going to snowball out of control, the original factions of Mages and Templar's will cease to exist in the grand scheme, as individuals they will be absorbed into a greater conflict. And at the end of the day, depending on who comes out on top(whatever side the PC is on lol) the situation involving just about everything will be re-evaluated.

Until the epilogues are contradicted in some future installment of the franchise, I personally consider them canon.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Northern Sun wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Edit: And the Templars will only be cut off from Lyrium if you assume the mages actually held the Circle Towers, and thus the Lyrium stores. Otherwise the Templars probably have enough Lyrium to last for a while.

Which is why controlling or destroying lyrium stores should be a top priority for the mages.

Which is also why the Templars will never let the mages achieve that.

You're narrowing this down to "Either the mages held the Towers or they just left". You're not even taking into account that some of the Templars in each Circle may have sided with the mages, and not against them.

And in doing so, may have helped to destroy the majority of lyrium, if not all of it.