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[Melca36]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. When you fight your way through the gallows you are almost flooded by demons, abominations and blood mages...

So? Are you assuming its going to be that way with all mages?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Then the mages are in even more deepsh*t than previously believed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages seperating into small groups or individuals would be their doom. The Templars have trainned for exactly that.

You are not taking into account numbers. This is the first continent wide revolt.

Say mages seperate into a couple of dozens of cells. This is not something Templars are accustomed to.
They are probably accustomed to fiihting one cell at a time.

Add to that the Chantry seemingly fracturing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 03:00 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. When you fight your way through the gallows you are almost flooded by demons, abominations and blood mages...

If the danger were as dire as the chantry claims, then ALL (or virtually all) of the mages should have gone bad given that they are activelly being hunted and murdered with no way out.  They don't.  As for bloodmagic and demons, when your back is against the wall, the rules don't matter any more.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages seperating into small groups or individuals would be their doom. The Templars have trainned for exactly that.

You are not taking into account numbers. This is the first continent wide revolt.

Say mages seperate into a couple of dozens of cells. This is not something Templars are accustomed to.
They are probably accustomed to fiihting one cell at a time.

That is how you fight cells....

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is how you fight cells....

When dozens of others are causing damage at the same time everywhere else in the continent and possibly making strategic gains, this will result in a very long war of attrition that will require Templars to remain united, to somehow access lyrium...etc etc.

I am not saying mages are likely to win mind you. On their own, they stand no chance. But it will be no picnic for Templars either.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. When you fight your way through the gallows you are almost flooded by demons, abominations and blood mages...

If the danger were as dire as the chantry claims, then ALL (or virtually all) of the mages should have gone bad given that they are activelly being hunted and murdered with no way out.  They don't.  As for bloodmagic and demons, when your back is against the wall, the rules don't matter any more.

-Polaris

That some do turn to it, just validates the Chantry's claims. The Chantry doesn't say that ALL mages will turn to it, they simply say that mages are human, and humans will do anyhting to survive when the situation is dire enough. You can't blame the mages for doing so, especially during an annulment.
Even when your back is against the wall, there are still things you simply won't do. It is the same with mages. Many mages have been taught their whole life to stay away from blood magic, and they do so, even in the face of death.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

It would not just be the templars they are fighting too, do you really think other nations would sit by and just let another Tevinter Imperium rise to power and threaten their way of life? It would be the rebels vs most of Thedas with maybe some Tevinter help on their side.

Having a bunch of small cells would not help they are facing kings/empress/nobles with deep pockets and armys at their call. You dont think they would hire groups like the carta or the crows to hunt down a couple of mages?

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 27 août 2011 - 03:07 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages seperating into small groups or individuals would be their doom. The Templars have trainned for exactly that.

You are not taking into account numbers. This is the first continent wide revolt.

Say mages seperate into a couple of dozens of cells. This is not something Templars are accustomed to.
They are probably accustomed to fiihting one cell at a time.

That is how you fight cells....

That ONLY works (as KoP mentions above) when you have the unquestioned support of the authories or you are the authorities and you can control the overall population.

That's not true any more.  The Templars would be playing "whack-a-mole" with limited and diminishing resources, increasingly poor relations with others (foraging which is what the Templars would have to do does NOT endear you to others), and with less and less effectiveness especially as the mages gained sympathy and political allies.

Read Mao's book. 

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is how you fight cells....

When dozens of others are causing damage at the same time everywhere else in the continent and possibly making strategic gains, this will result in a very long war of attrition that will require Templars to remain united, to somehow access lyrium...etc etc.

I am not saying mages are likely to win mind you. On their own, they stand no chance. But it will be no picnic for Templars either.

Cells can't make "strategic gains" without making themselves an obvious target, and thus terminating their own advantage. Sure they can make a few hit and run attacks. But Templars are probably used to that, especially while on the hunt for mages.
And I'm not claiming it would be a picnic for the Templars, I'm claiming, that if the Mages stick to a tactic that hasn't worked for 900 years, they are going to fail, even if they can prolong that failling, due to changed parameters.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. When you fight your way through the gallows you are almost flooded by demons, abominations and blood mages...

If the danger were as dire as the chantry claims, then ALL (or virtually all) of the mages should have gone bad given that they are activelly being hunted and murdered with no way out.  They don't.  As for bloodmagic and demons, when your back is against the wall, the rules don't matter any more.

-Polaris

That some do turn to it, just validates the Chantry's claims. The Chantry doesn't say that ALL mages will turn to it, they simply say that mages are human, and humans will do anyhting to survive when the situation is dire enough. You can't blame the mages for doing so, especially during an annulment.
Even when your back is against the wall, there are still things you simply won't do. It is the same with mages. Many mages have been taught their whole life to stay away from blood magic, and they do so, even in the face of death.

Bolluxs.  In a fight for your life, everything is permissable.  That is generally understood.  Read Hobbes' Leviathan.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages seperating into small groups or individuals would be their doom. The Templars have trainned for exactly that.

You are not taking into account numbers. This is the first continent wide revolt.

Say mages seperate into a couple of dozens of cells. This is not something Templars are accustomed to.
They are probably accustomed to fiihting one cell at a time.

That is how you fight cells....

That ONLY works (as KoP mentions above) when you have the unquestioned support of the authories or you are the authorities and you can control the overall population.

That's not true any more.  The Templars would be playing "whack-a-mole" with limited and diminishing resources, increasingly poor relations with others (foraging which is what the Templars would have to do does NOT endear you to others), and with less and less effectiveness especially as the mages gained sympathy and political allies.

Read Mao's book. 

-Polaris

Templars are  probably a whole lot more wealthy, and popular than the mages. The mages would be foreced to do a lot more foraging than the Templars.
Furhtermore, the Templars role havn't changed since they left the Chantry, nor has their authority on the matter necesairly lessened. The populace, still remember the Templars and their job, and will probably help them, or at least not obstruct it.
The only difference is that the Templars can't threaten with legal actions against anyone who obstructs their investigations into a mage cell.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Cells can't make "strategic gains" without making themselves an obvious target, and thus terminating their own advantage. Sure they can make a few hit and run attacks. But Templars are probably used to that, especially while on the hunt for mages.
And I'm not claiming it would be a picnic for the Templars, I'm claiming, that if the Mages stick to a tactic that hasn't worked for 900 years, they are going to fail, even if they can prolong that failling, due to changed parameters.

You think the mages have to win outright.  They don't.  They just don't have to lose.  That's because all the longterm trends favor the mages.  Just the lyrium alone means the Templars have maybe a handful of years to put down the mages before they start losing lots and lots of templars to Lyrium withdrawal...and that's not counting the logistical support needed to feed and equip an army of heavy infantry.  The Templars have lost their logistical base which means if the mages continue to snipe for a few years, then things suddenly look pretty bleak for the Templars.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Cells can't make "strategic gains" without making themselves an obvious target, and thus terminating their own advantage. Sure they can make a few hit and run attacks. But Templars are probably used to that, especially while on the hunt for mages.
And I'm not claiming it would be a picnic for the Templars, I'm claiming, that if the Mages stick to a tactic that hasn't worked for 900 years, they are going to fail, even if they can prolong that failling, due to changed parameters.

Of course they can, if they take advantage of the Templar over-extending and exhausting themselves.

Now of course, what they need to do is get allies and fast. That would be the biggest strategic gain, that they desperately need.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They only teach the battle spells to the mages who wants to learn them. You think all the mages have been wanting to go to wars in lands they don't know, for reasons tehy don't care for all their lives?

point. missing it. All spells have a function in and out of combat, and all mages learn spells from one of the four schools. That's the point of the Circle. To hone the abilities of the mage to manipulate nature and energy. The spirit school is entirely combat oriented. So is the Primal school. A single earthquake on a Templar base would greatly benefit the mages. Or a well placed fireball on their supply depot.

http://dragonage.wik...Spells_(Origins)

You think a mage apprentice would go into his Harrowing without a knowledge of combat spells? The Harrowing is about resisting demons, which is more than just saying no. Demons will either try to forcibly possess a mage or get them to agree to it. Or just try and use their own arrogance against them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. When you fight your way through the gallows you are almost flooded by demons, abominations and blood mages...

If the danger were as dire as the chantry claims, then ALL (or virtually all) of the mages should have gone bad given that they are activelly being hunted and murdered with no way out.  They don't.  As for bloodmagic and demons, when your back is against the wall, the rules don't matter any more.

-Polaris

That some do turn to it, just validates the Chantry's claims. The Chantry doesn't say that ALL mages will turn to it, they simply say that mages are human, and humans will do anyhting to survive when the situation is dire enough. You can't blame the mages for doing so, especially during an annulment.
Even when your back is against the wall, there are still things you simply won't do. It is the same with mages. Many mages have been taught their whole life to stay away from blood magic, and they do so, even in the face of death.

Bolluxs.  In a fight for your life, everything is permissable.  That is generally understood.  Read Hobbes' Leviathan.

-Polaris

Everyhting is permittable... Within your own personal standards. Some persons will not, no matter how dire a situation ever scoop so low to use human shields, for example, becasue of the way they have been taught, and their own beliefs. Others wouldn't care one bit, and would only think about their own survival. And those people, are the blood mages and demonologists.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are  probably a whole lot more wealthy, and popular than the mages. The mages would be foreced to do a lot more foraging than the Templars.
Furhtermore, the Templars role havn't changed since they left the Chantry, nor has their authority on the matter necesairly lessened. The populace, still remember the Templars and their job, and will probably help them, or at least not obstruct it.
The only difference is that the Templars can't threaten with legal actions against anyone who obstructs their investigations into a mage cell.

 Oh really?  Do you have any idea what it takes to feed, equip, and maintain even a small unit of heavy midaeval infantry in the field?  Even the richest backer would quickly go broke.  Armies of the period that Thedas is set in DEPEND on foraging to make war possible at all on any large scale basis.  It's why soldiers (of any type) are so universally despised by farmers.

Mages, otoh, have their magic which they can use to trade for services...and there are fewer of them.  If the mages go for a cell structure, they hardly have to forage at all (again read Mao's book!).

The Templars?  Unless Tevinter or the Chantry themsleves are paying them (and we know the Chantry isn't any more), then they are S.O.L.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

It would not be easy, a templar is trained to hunt down and kill mages they never stop training for it.
Ontop of that people tend to support templars over mages outright.

A apostate mage probably knows a few spells to try and defend himself but a circle mage? Most have been locked away in a tower most of their life with no combat experience and little life experience.

Not to mention when they get cornered they turn into abominations and end up trying to kill both templars and former allies and the blood mages would more then likely cause more chaos in their own ranks summoning demons that end up turning on them. It would be very chaotic to try and lead a rebellion with an army like that.

The perception of magic as being a good thing has been increasing due to the efforts of the Mages' Collective, who make sure that problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

http://dragonage.wik...ive_Arming_Cowl

[EmperorSahlertz]

Uhm.. Why wouldn't he enter the harrowing without knowledge of combat spells? Possibly all mages learn some sort of basic "bolt" spell, but no mage knows what the harrowing is about, until the day he faces it. Some probably go through their harrowing without even having to use combat spells.
And Primal school, for example, is not entirely focused on combat. Primal school can also be something as simple as lighting a damn campfire, which apparently is difficult enough (albiet for an apprentice who was affraid of his own magic).

[Erani]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Erani wrote...

Well three years after, all the circles are free and the Chantry has lost its Templars so looks like the mages are pretty organized. Also, I hope the mages stole as much lyrium as possible and threw away the rest...Templars: good luck getting it directly from the dwarves.

They've been getting it directly from the dwarves for 900 years previously... I think they will be fine...

Errr no, the Chantry got the lyrium from the dwarves, and used it to drug the Templars into obedience. It's possible that lyrium has no impact on Templar skills and once they found out how the Chantry had used them, decided to break free. On the other hand, if lyrium is indeed connected to their abilities and with the Chantry controlling the lyrium trade...then the situation does not look good for the Templars as I doubt the Chantry will keep providing them with it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are  probably a whole lot more wealthy, and popular than the mages. The mages would be foreced to do a lot more foraging than the Templars.
Furhtermore, the Templars role havn't changed since they left the Chantry, nor has their authority on the matter necesairly lessened. The populace, still remember the Templars and their job, and will probably help them, or at least not obstruct it.
The only difference is that the Templars can't threaten with legal actions against anyone who obstructs their investigations into a mage cell.

 Oh really?  Do you have any idea what it takes to feed, equip, and maintain even a small unit of heavy midaeval infantry in the field?  Even the richest backer would quickly go broke.  Armies of the period that Thedas is set in DEPEND on foraging to make war possible at all on any large scale basis.  It's why soldiers (of any type) are so universally despised by farmers.

Mages, otoh, have their magic which they can use to trade for services...and there are fewer of them.  If the mages go for a cell structure, they hardly have to forage at all (again read Mao's book!).

The Templars?  Unless Tevinter or the Chantry themsleves are paying them (and we know the Chantry isn't any more), then they are S.O.L.

-Polaris

Which magic services? We have no idea of what magic can be used for outside of combat, other than lighting a damn campfire. Healing, sure. But again, not all mages knows how (even Merill who is an "oh so great" mage, doesn't know). We don't know if a mage can summon a rain cloud and help a drought stricken farmer out. We simply don't. Templars and mages seem to be able to offer the same kind of service. Mercenary. Strike down a local threat, and recieve a reward. Besides the Templars are probably the ones in charge of the Circle treasuries, which is probably sizeable.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

 Oh really?  Do you have any idea what it takes to feed, equip, and maintain even a small unit of heavy midaeval infantry in the field?  Even the richest backer would quickly go broke.  Armies of the period that Thedas is set in DEPEND on foraging to make war possible at all on any large scale basis.  It's why soldiers (of any type) are so universally despised by farmers.

Forget that, their biggest weakness is Lyrium. What, are they going to invade Orzammar or strike a deal with them, with money they don't have? Or are they going to start plundering everyone to get that money?

EDIT: they could get into smuggling, but they would still need money.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 03:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Erani wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Erani wrote...

Well three years after, all the circles are free and the Chantry has lost its Templars so looks like the mages are pretty organized. Also, I hope the mages stole as much lyrium as possible and threw away the rest...Templars: good luck getting it directly from the dwarves.

They've been getting it directly from the dwarves for 900 years previously... I think they will be fine...

Errr no, the Chantry got the lyrium from the dwarves, and used it to drug the Templars into obedience. It's possible that lyrium has no impact on Templar skills and once they found out how the Chantry had used them, decided to break free. On the other hand, if lyrium is indeed connected to their abilities and with the Chantry controlling the lyrium trade...then the situation does not look good for the Templars as I doubt the Chantry will keep providing them with it.

You think the Dwarves will stop selling their main customer, wether direct or indirect, just because the mediator stops mediating? If anything the Dwarves have shown themselves to be rather fond of their money. They will keep selling, for as long as therer is a profit to be made.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. Why wouldn't he enter the harrowing without knowledge of combat spells? Possibly all mages learn some sort of basic "bolt" spell, but no mage knows what the harrowing is about, until the day he faces it. Some probably go through their harrowing without even having to use combat spells.

And you think a mage would be confident enough to face down sloth, desire, and pride demons (the most powerful ones) in the Fade with only knowledge of an Arcane bolt spell after they've passed their Harrowing? That's beyond foolish. They need to know combat spells in order to survive against Demons in the Fade and in real life. Wynne is a Spirit Healer yet she knew enough combat spells to take down a powerful demon (Pride would be my guess) threatening Petra, though at the cost of her life because she used up all of her willpower. Petra, Kinnon, and the indoctrinated mage all knew combat spells, and Force magic is the most popular school of magic in Kirkwall's Circle. That school of magic is about manipulating gravity, which would work well to the advantage of the mages.

The fact remains that mages need to know combat spells in order to have a chance of surviving against demons. And those spells will help in surviving in real life too.

[Melca36]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are  probably a whole lot more wealthy, and popular than the mages. The mages would be foreced to do a lot more foraging than the Templars.
Furhtermore, the Templars role havn't changed since they left the Chantry, nor has their authority on the matter necesairly lessened. The populace, still remember the Templars and their job, and will probably help them, or at least not obstruct it.
The only difference is that the Templars can't threaten with legal actions against anyone who obstructs their investigations into a mage cell.

Oh really? Then how come when you clicked on random citizens during ACT 3...you heard their resentment at being under Meredith's control?

Mages are alot more popular than you give them credit for,