619 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The common people are in most cases more likely to pay for the help of a templar than a mage. Templars are still more highly respected and looked up to than mages, while mages, although powerful and capable of many services beyond the abilities of mundanes, are largely feared.

How much the average joe would willing to pay though? Without enforced taxation, I highly doubt donations are sufficient to upkeep an army, especially if the war turns out to be a long one of attrition.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 03:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Templar Order is a knightly order attached to the Chantry, they aren't the actual Chantry (ie. Just a brother who takes up arms), they are bound to have their own funding, possibly (or rather probably) with Chantry support, but they would most likely have their own treasury. How they fill their treasury I cannot say, but it is probably similar to the Templars and Knights Teutonic of our world.

The Teutonics owned lands (and forged a kingdom). Templars are not as independent an order and there is no indication that they own lands. They are the military arm of the Chantry, created by the Chantry. They were not independent, not before now.

Templars of our world was created to serve the Church, for that specific purpose only. Yet they earned their own money, AND recieved donations from the Church. How did tehy recieve money? Simple. When their members joined, they were required to pass ALL their belonings to the Order. Including estates. Since the Templars were NOT created to serve the Chantry, but rahter to hunt mages, and other evils, I see absolutely no reason for why they would not have similar customs, to earn their own money.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Templar Order is a knightly order attached to the Chantry, they aren't the actual Chantry (ie. Just a brother who takes up arms), they are bound to have their own funding, possibly (or rather probably) with Chantry support, but they would most likely have their own treasury. How they fill their treasury I cannot say, but it is probably similar to the Templars and Knights Teutonic of our world.

The Teutonics owned lands (and forged a kingdom). Templars are not as independent an order and there is no indication that they own lands. They are the military arm of the Chantry, created by the Chantry. They were not independent, not before now.

In fairness to Emp, the Templars used to be called the Inquisitors and they used to be a rival Cult of Andraste that the Chantry absorbed very early on in it's history...but ever since then, the Templars have served at the pleasure of the Divine.  They are not like the Knights Hospitalor or Templars (IRL) at all that way.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

The rebels are just another tevinter imperium in the making

*facepalm*

[Tommy6860]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Edit: Note that when I mention templars here, I'm assuming that they have broken away from the Chantry as per DA2's ending, so they are no longer getting paid the regular way.

And they blatantly frequented The Blooming Rose too .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[Templars of our world was created to serve the Church, for that specific purpose only. Yet they earned their own money, AND recieved donations from the Church. How did tehy recieve money? Simple. When their members joined, they were required to pass ALL their belonings to the Order. Including estates. Since the Templars were NOT created to serve the Chantry, but rahter to hunt mages, and other evils, I see absolutely no reason for why they would not have similar customs, to earn their own money.

Prove it.  There is nothing in the game lore that even remotely hints that the Templars have any independant logistics outside the Chantry.

-Polaris

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Not to mention most of them have lived in a tower most their life you really think they are going to be masters of guerilla warfare?

What you have is a military group with actual cities they can base their operations from and a bunch of mages running around in the wilds? I doubt the templars would even have to leave the cities the mages would have to be the ones on the offense and i do not think they have the organization nor the experience to survive fighting in the wilds or storming a heavily armed city.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Templars are not as independent an order and there is no indication that they own lands. They are the military arm of the Chantry, created by the Chantry. They were not independent, not before now.

Is the Templar Order the entirity of the Chantry's military forces? I thought they were primarily the anti-mage arm of the army, not necessarily the whole army...

[IanPolaris]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Not to mention most of them have lived in a tower most their life you really think they are going to be masters of guerilla warfare?

What you have is a military group with actual cities they can base their operations from and a bunch of mages running around in the wilds? I doubt the templars would even have to leave the cities the mages would have to be the ones on the offense and i do not think they have the organization nor the experience to survive fighting in the wilds or storming a heavily armed city.

We know for a fact they've had an open revolution for three years and haven't been put down yet.

Think about it....

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Aren't we simply speculating right now? Otherwise I'd like you to prove that mages won't face the problems you've been arguing against.. I mean.. We are presenting points, and coutner points, to develop a likely scenario. To ask for proof for either point, that any of us in this thread presents, is rather unreasonable since all we got is a few lines for what is going on.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Templars of our world was created to serve the Church, for that specific purpose only. Yet they earned their own money, AND recieved donations from the Church. How did tehy recieve money? Simple. When their members joined, they were required to pass ALL their belonings to the Order. Including estates. Since the Templars were NOT created to serve the Chantry, but rahter to hunt mages, and other evils, I see absolutely no reason for why they would not have similar customs, to earn their own money.

Hunt mages and other evils, and preserving the status quo is serving the Chantry.

And no, the Templars got a lot of their money from patronage (the Church generally) and lands (and whatever else) they took in the Crusades.
And we have seen Alfstanna's brother, who joined the Templars, did not give his family estate or land.

So from where they would earn that money?

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What on earht would give the Templars a sudden impulse to go after the Keepers and Firsts more than they already do? The Dalish are used to that, they won't join a futile war for that.

Because before they only went after them if they stayed in a place for too long. Now, they're hunting mages. You think they're going to say "Oh well those mages are just living their lives, and I'm cool with that. Despite me not being cool with that in the past, those mages are fine. I'll leave them be."

The Templars are hunting all mages. Not just Circle mages. If that was the case, Varric would've specified that they were hunting only Circle mages. But he said that they're hunting the mages.

Now that the Dalish are even more threatened, they will be forced to act. There isn't anywhere they can go where the Templars won't hunt them. If the Templars see their Aravels in the sky (which they more than likely will) they'll follow the aravels and try to take -- or kill -- the mages in the clans.

[Erani]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Erani wrote...

The Dalish hate both the Chantry and Templars. I see them trying to stay as far away from conflict as possible but way more likely to help an apostate than a Templar.

Exactly. Surely some Dalish clans will help the odd apostate. But they will msot likely not commit to a war that is not theirs, and will not benefit them.

The Dalish value the old ways and have great knowledge of magic, including blood magic. It's obvious they see a less powerful Chantry as a good thing, so yes Mages "winning" the war would benefit the Dalish. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Templars are not as independent an order and there is no indication that they own lands. They are the military arm of the Chantry, created by the Chantry. They were not independent, not before now.

Is the Templar Order the entirity of the Chantry's military forces? I thought they were primarily the anti-mage arm of the army, not necessarily the whole army...

Other than Seekers, I think that's their army. The backbone of Andrastrian armies is Orlais, which is closely associated with the Chantry.

[Melca36]

Its funny how people assume this was is going to be everyone against mages when that is not the case.

There will be Templars who side with the mages while others will go rogue against them

There will be people fighting on the mages side

There will be pro mage countries. I suspect Ferelden would like declare itself mage friendly in exchange for the mages help in protecting its borders

There will also be mages fighting other mages.

And of course the Seekers will be in the middle of it

[Erani]

IanPolaris wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Not to mention most of them have lived in a tower most their life you really think they are going to be masters of guerilla warfare?

What you have is a military group with actual cities they can base their operations from and a bunch of mages running around in the wilds? I doubt the templars would even have to leave the cities the mages would have to be the ones on the offense and i do not think they have the organization nor the experience to survive fighting in the wilds or storming a heavily armed city.

We know for a fact they've had an open revolution for three years and haven't been put down yet.

Think about it....

-Polaris

Honestly, if we thing about it...to have fought for 3 years and still be free...the mages must be receiving "outside" help, like people in villages or whatever must be hiding/helping them or something. No way they are just hiding in caves.

[TEWR]

Interesting thing the wiki says that I didn't know: The Grand Enchanter is apparently an advisor to the Divine.

Which doesn't mean he's a Loyalist. Don't want people thinking that the Grand Enchanters are always Loyalists. But this does mean he's very in-the-know. And since he's elected by the College of Magi, he could be the leader of the mages.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aren't we simply speculating right now? Otherwise I'd like you to prove that mages won't face the problems you've been arguing against.. I mean.. We are presenting points, and coutner points, to develop a likely scenario. To ask for proof for either point, that any of us in this thread presents, is rather unreasonable since all we got is a few lines for what is going on.

We are speculating based on the known game data.  There is nothing that even hints that the Templars have their own logistic support.

-Polaris

[Melca36]

Erani wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Not to mention most of them have lived in a tower most their life you really think they are going to be masters of guerilla warfare?

What you have is a military group with actual cities they can base their operations from and a bunch of mages running around in the wilds? I doubt the templars would even have to leave the cities the mages would have to be the ones on the offense and i do not think they have the organization nor the experience to survive fighting in the wilds or storming a heavily armed city.

We know for a fact they've had an open revolution for three years and haven't been put down yet.

Think about it....

-Polaris

Honestly, if we thing about it...to have fought for 3 years and still be free...the mages must be receiving "outside" help, like people in villages or whatever must be hiding/helping them or something. No way they are just hiding in caves.

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

We are speculating based on the known game data.  There is nothing that even hints that the Templars have their own logistic support.

-Polaris

The only way (other than enchantements assuming there is a big demand for it) I could see them getting money, is from patronage by states, or certain religious nobles.

But I have always said that imo, the most likely actors to determine the outcome of the war are states.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 03:51 .

[Rifneno]

Melca36 wrote...

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

What do you expect them to do?  Not make stuff up to support their views?  Be reasonable here!

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The common people are in most cases more likely to pay for the help of a templar than a mage. Templars are still more highly respected and looked up to than mages, while mages, although powerful and capable of many services beyond the abilities of mundanes, are largely feared.

How much the average joe would willing to pay though? Without enforced taxation, I highly doubt donations are sufficient to upkeep an army, especially if the war turns out to be a long one of attrition.

The average Dragon Age peasant seems able to provide quite ample rewards to the PC XD But realistically, I agree it would not be enough to support an army.

However, I don't believe all the templars will bunch together. Their beliefs in how mages should be treated are almost as varied as what the mages themselves believe.

[TEWR]

Melca36 wrote...

Erani wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Not to mention most of them have lived in a tower most their life you really think they are going to be masters of guerilla warfare?

What you have is a military group with actual cities they can base their operations from and a bunch of mages running around in the wilds? I doubt the templars would even have to leave the cities the mages would have to be the ones on the offense and i do not think they have the organization nor the experience to survive fighting in the wilds or storming a heavily armed city.

We know for a fact they've had an open revolution for three years and haven't been put down yet.

Think about it....

-Polaris

Honestly, if we thing about it...to have fought for 3 years and still be free...the mages must be receiving "outside" help, like people in villages or whatever must be hiding/helping them or something. No way they are just hiding in caves.

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

I've seen a few Templar people say "the mages will have a lot of supporters" but then try and say that the supporters pro-mage people name would have no reason to aid the mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Melca36 wrote...

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

I think most people by default will side against mages, yes. Anders' idiocy did not help.

Can the mage change or alleviate it? Yes, though that would be difficult.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Other than Seekers, I think that's their army. The backbone of Andrastrian armies is Orlais, which is closely associated with the Chantry.

I was just curious. It doesn't seem prudent to have your entire army be dependant on Lyrium.