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[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
However, I don't believe all the templars will bunch together. Their beliefs in how mages should be treated are almost as varied as what the mages themselves believe.

Which will work against them, if they no longer become a cohesive and unified force.

But I can say the same for mages as well. Both sides will require leadership.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Other than Seekers, I think that's their army. The backbone of Andrastrian armies is Orlais, which is closely associated with the Chantry.

I was just curious. It doesn't seem prudent to have your entire army be dependant on Lyrium.

On the otherhand, if you control that lyrium, it is the best way to control them.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
However, I don't believe all the templars will bunch together. Their beliefs in how mages should be treated are almost as varied as what the mages themselves believe.

Which will work against them, if they no longer become a cohesive and unified force.

But I can say the same for mages as well. Both sides will require leadership.

The lyrium withdrawal will no doubt begin to destroy any unity the Templars are able to have. And the Grand Enchanter, being a mage that's elected by the College of Magi, could serve as the leader of the Mages.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
However, I don't believe all the templars will bunch together. Their beliefs in how mages should be treated are almost as varied as what the mages themselves believe.

Which will work against them, if they no longer become a cohesive and unified force.

But I can say the same for mages as well. Both sides will require leadership.

Agreed on all counts.

And I'm praying for some smarter, more cunning leaders on both sides than what DA2 had, that's for sure.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Rifneno wrote...

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

The rebels are just another tevinter imperium in the making

*facepalm*

? You really think they are going to bring down the most dominate religion in Thedas and just go back to living the life they had before they went to the circle/going to war

Anders already pissed away any chance of it not being an explosive war, to the rest of the world this is what it looks like - The mages just blew up a religious sanctuary and killed a grand cleric (Yes we know it was the work of one mage but the rest of the world does not know that) and they are now rebelling and fighting the chantry and the templars. An exhalted march would force every nation to back up the templars and most of the civilians would support this seeing as they are attacking their religion and their way of life (this is what it looks like to the rest of the world).

It would not be a waiting game the only way the mages would win is by seizing power actually becoming a nation and forcing some sort of ceasefire or going to tevinter and hiding out there.

[Erani]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

I think most people by default will side against mages, yes. Anders' idiocy did not help.

Can the mage change or alleviate it? Yes, though that would be difficult.

Once all those mages go back to/contact their families and start telling stories of their abuse/torture/rape/I don't even want to think about...let's see how much support the Templars will have. Plus, I'm sure the mages found some way to distroy their phylacteries (or at least many of them) or it would have been relatively easy for the Templars to find them. Without phylacteries to follow, the Templars will search every corner or every town looking for apostates and will probably kill/threaten people who have aided mages and that will not go well with the common people. 

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
However, I don't believe all the templars will bunch together. Their beliefs in how mages should be treated are almost as varied as what the mages themselves believe.

Which will work against them, if they no longer become a cohesive and unified force.

But I can say the same for mages as well. Both sides will require leadership.

Agreed on all counts.

And I'm praying for some smarter, more cunning leaders on both sides than what DA2 had, that's for sure.

I'm praying that Bioware retcons Orsino's fate for pro-mage people.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Etherealwriter
Honestly, I doubt the grand enchanter, who is likely an old pencil pusher, is up for the job.

It will need some young blood, imo.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Agreed on all counts.

And I'm praying for some smarter, more cunning leaders on both sides than what DA2 had, that's for sure.

Yes, I want Bhelens and Anoras
Well more, Bhelens.

[IanPolaris]

Erani wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

I think most people by default will side against mages, yes. Anders' idiocy did not help.

Can the mage change or alleviate it? Yes, though that would be difficult.

Once all those mages go back to/contact their families and start telling stories of their abuse/torture/rape/I don't even want to think about...let's see how much support the Templars will have. Plus, I'm sure the mages found some way to distroy their phylacteries (or at least many of them) or it would have been relatively easy for the Templars to find them. Without phylacteries to follow, the Templars will search every corner or every town looking for apostates and will probably kill/threaten people who have aided mages and that will not go well with the common people. 

Not only that but without outside logistics, the Templars are going to have to "forage" in order to survive, and lest anyone forget "forage" is a euphemistic term which really means "Pillage, Rape and steal everything that isn't nailed down....and you have a clawhammer for those things that are)".  That sort of behavior will erode any goodwill towards the Templars very quickly...not just by the affected peasentry but by their Leige Lords and thus nobility as well.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Erani wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

I think most people by default will side against mages, yes. Anders' idiocy did not help.

Can the mage change or alleviate it? Yes, though that would be difficult.

Once all those mages go back to/contact their families and start telling stories of their abuse/torture/rape/I don't even want to think about...let's see how much support the Templars will have. Plus, I'm sure the mages found some way to distroy their phylacteries (or at least many of them) or it would have been relatively easy for the Templars to find them. Without phylacteries to follow, the Templars will search every corner or every town looking for apostates and will probably kill/threaten people who have aided mages and that will not go well with the common people.

You assume that the families that gave up their children will care. Not all of them would.
Send a few criers in very village and let him yell about the Tevinter imperium and the evils of magic, and the demons unleashed in Kirkwall, and the murder of the popular Grand cleric, and let's see how many would be willing to side with mages.

Templars can rely on commoner support to find these mages. Unless mages can win them over, which while not impossible, would be very difficult. Made even more difficult if Templars understand propaganda.

That is assuming, that Templars can get patronage.

But honestly, neither Templars nor mages can win imo. States will decide the outcome.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 04:06 .

[Melca36]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

I think most people by default will side against mages, yes. Anders' idiocy did not help.

Can the mage change or alleviate it? Yes, though that would be difficult.

I think that will happen when they find out all the secrets The Chantry has been hiding.

I don't think the Chantry will ever go away but I think they're going to be in a weakened state once all these hidden truths come out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Melca36 wrote...
I think that will happen when they find out all the secrets The Chantry has been hiding.

I don't think the Chantry will ever go away but I think they're going to be in a weakened state once all these hidden truths come out.

Once people find out that Kirkwall was infested by demons, most would succumb to fear.

I personally think that people will be fed up by both mages and Templars, at the end.

[IanPolaris]

KoP,

True. I think the mages won't lose immediately and that's what matters, but this will be like the thirty years war. Decided by newly centralized authoritarian states.

-Polaris

[Follow Me on Twitter]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Erani wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Exactly. I always find it funny when people automatically assume every person in Thedas will be against mages.

I think most people by default will side against mages, yes. Anders' idiocy did not help.

Can the mage change or alleviate it? Yes, though that would be difficult.

Once all those mages go back to/contact their families and start telling stories of their abuse/torture/rape/I don't even want to think about...let's see how much support the Templars will have. Plus, I'm sure the mages found some way to distroy their phylacteries (or at least many of them) or it would have been relatively easy for the Templars to find them. Without phylacteries to follow, the Templars will search every corner or every town looking for apostates and will probably kill/threaten people who have aided mages and that will not go well with the common people.

You assume that the families that gave up their children will care. Not all of them would.
Send a few criers in very village and let him yell about the Tevinter imperium and the evils of magic, and the demons unleashed in Kirkwall, and the murder of the popular Grand cleric, and let's see how many would be willing to side with mages.

Templars can rely on commoner support to find these mages. Unless mages can win them over, which while not impossible, would be very difficult. Made even more difficult if Templars understand propaganda.

That is assuming, that Templars can get patronage.

But honestly, neither Templars nor mages can win imo. States will decide the outcome.

Finally someone that understands that this is a religious war it's going to be glorified to everyone as doing the makers work to stop the abominations and demons from destroying their way of life. People would be lining up to fight for their faith.

[phaonica]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Finally someone that understands that this is a religious war it's going to be glorified to everyone as doing the makers work to stop the abominations and demons from destroying their way of life. People would be lining up to fight for their faith.

Exactly. A lot of the common folk may think that helping the mages or going against the Templars is going against their religion, against Andraste and the Maker. I would imagine quite a lot of people won't support mages for this reason alone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KoP,

True. I think the mages won't lose immediately and that's what matters, but this will be like the thirty years war. Decided by newly centralized authoritarian states.

-Polaris

Indeed. And hopefully they would realize how much of a valuable resource magic is.

[Erani]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You assume that the families that gave up their children will care. Not all of them would.
Send a few criers in very village and let him yell about the Tevinter imperium and the evils of magic, and the demons unleashed in Kirkwall, and the murder of the popular Grand cleric, and let's see how many would be willing to side with mages.

Templars can rely on commoner support to find these mages. Unless mages can win them over, which while not impossible, would be very difficult. Made even more difficult if Templars understand propaganda.

That is assuming, that Templars can get patronage.

But honestly, neither Templars nor mages can win imo. States will decide the outcome.

Some families may not care, but most mages were taken from their families, not "given up". Even those that gave up their children did not know the Circles were such terrible places...what I mean is, it is not common knowledge that rape/torture/molestation/peeping toms/forced Tranquilment were going on...it was sorta hush hush. Such things do not sit well with people. Also, without the monetary support from the Chantry, Templars are going to get resources anyway they can, which will include stealing and threatening merchants...it's just the reality of war. That will decrease their support among common folk. Mages can do healing and spells, things they can get paid for. 

[Follow Me on Twitter]

And you would be surprised at how hard people fight and how much they are willing to sacrifice to defend their religion.

[Rifneno]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

? You really think they are going to bring down the most dominate religion in Thedas and just go back to living the life they had before they went to the circle/going to war

Right. They want basic human rights and not to be abused and raped by drug addicts, so that means they'll definitely take over the world and enslave everyone. I can clearly see that connection, it's not incredibly asinine at all! I'm sure if that kind of generality was made about a real life minority instead of a fictional one, it would go over well and certainly wouldn't destroy the career of anyone daft enough to voice it publicly.

An exhalted march would force every nation to back up the templars and most of the civilians would support this seeing as they are attacking their religion and their way of life (this is what it looks like to the rest of the world).

LOL! Yes, everyone in Thedas is such a brainless Chantry supporter!

It would not be a waiting game the only way the mages would win is by seizing power actually becoming a nation and forcing some sort of ceasefire or going to tevinter and hiding out there.

Now we're ignoring "current day" Thedas is 3 years into the war and the Chantry is grasping at straws by sending its spies to try and search for a grand hero and hoping them saying "you guys, stop fighting!" will stop the war?

P.S. You should probably look up the meaning of the word "hunt" if you think "the templars left the Chantry to hunt the mages" means "the mages will be assaulting fortified civilian areas protected by the templars."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Erani wrote...
Some families may not care, but most mages were taken from their families, not "given up". Even those that gave up their children did not know the Circles were such terrible places...what I mean is, it is not common knowledge that rape/torture/molestation/peeping toms/forced Tranquilment were going on...it was sorta hush hush. Such things do not sit well with people. Also, without the monetary support from the Chantry, Templars are going to get resources anyway they can, which will include stealing and threatening merchants...it's just the reality of war. That will decrease their support among common folk. Mages can do healing and spells, things they can get paid for. 

You would be surprised how much people would be willing to tolerate if they succumb to fear. Case in point, gossipers in Ferelden started saying that all mages should be exterminated, because they simply heard of the incident in the Circle.

And how do you know most families did not give up?

And agreed, if Templars can't get any funding, they will have to resort to things like that and it will be detrimental. But that does not automatically mean that these people would side with mages. Like  I said, I think people would ultimately just get pissed off at both.

There is one way I could see Templars avoiding such a tactic, and that is if they recieve monetary support from states and / or individual nobles. But those same people are as likely to believe that mages are a valuable resource. They could even be split in the middle. So yes, these people will decide who wins, imo.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 04:19 .

[IanPolaris]

Follow on Twitter,

The chantry isn't able to call an Exalted March anymore without everyone else (including the Templars) falling over in gales of laughter.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is one way I could see Templars avoiding such a tactic, and that is if they recieve monetary support from states and / or individual nobles. But those same people are as likely to believe that mages are a valuable resource. They could even be split in the middle. So yes, these people will decide who wins, imo.

I think the Templars could get SOME such support especially at first, but the sheer cost and scale it takes to feed, equip,and maintain a heavy infantry force in the field (let alone the added Lyrium cost) would backrupt pretty much any noble short of a Grand Duke (read very wealthy Arl or Teryn) and somehow I don't see many of those backing the templars once they break from the Chantry except a few maybe in Orlais.

I think this hard nosed logistics problem will be the final factor that will convince KC Gregoire to swear allegiance to the Chantry of Denerium, and it's Spiritual Head, the King of Fereldan.

-Polaris

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Hate to break it to you but there is a reason Andraste is the dominate religion right now and thats because most of Thedas is infact "a brainless chantry supporter"

Two it doesn't matter if they are trying to become like the tevinter imperium or not thats what it looks like to the rest of the world thats why the divine agent approached the champion in act 3 because she was sent there by Justinia because she fears thats what is going to happen if they actually gain their freedom.

I'm just putting everything out on the table most of Thedas dislikes the imperium if they were to go around and spout something like that to all the powers chances are they will give them aid to make sure nothng like that actually happens.

Modifié par Follow Me on Twitter, 27 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[phaonica]

I had forgotten that the game says the Templars left the Chantry to hunt the mages. Why would the Templars leave the Chantry? I thought the Chantry wanted to hunt mages, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is one way I could see Templars avoiding such a tactic, and that is if they recieve monetary support from states and / or individual nobles. But those same people are as likely to believe that mages are a valuable resource. They could even be split in the middle. So yes, these people will decide who wins, imo.

I think the Templars could get SOME such support especially at first, but the sheer cost and scale it takes to feed, equip,and maintain a heavy infantry force in the field (let alone the added Lyrium cost) would backrupt pretty much any noble short of a Grand Duke (read very wealthy Arl or Teryn) and somehow I don't see many of those backing the templars once they break from the Chantry except a few maybe in Orlais.

I think this hard nosed logistics problem will be the final factor that will convince KC Gregoire to swear allegiance to the Chantry of Denerium, and it's Spiritual Head, the King of Fereldan.

-Polaris

Indeed, time is not on their side, and if mages are smart and turn it into a war of attrition, nobles would get fed up eventually.

And exactly. States have the perfect opportunity to "nationalize" both Templars and mages. They are the only likely mediators imo. The Chantry has proven to be very ineffectual and I doubt it will do much.