619 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Coming in rather late here, so this has probably already been said.

Long term, I suspect the mages are largely boned, outside of Tevinter. Which is a shame, since I generally sympathize with the mages (excepting the Kirkwall Circle). I don't see how the mages can hope to gain the sympathy of the Thedasi public. In general they'll distrustful of mages already, and displays of their magic are unlikely to engender much support. People will side with the Templars, if only because of their unease towards mages.

The Mages have more support than one would think. The Mages' Collective has been improving the perception of magic by making peoples' problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

Ferelden and Orzammar are more than likely to aid the mages. If Ferelden is smart, they'll kick the Chantry out and assign the Templars to fall under the authority of the monarchs. They should also forge an alliance with the Dwarves in an effort to aid the mages, fight the Darkspawn, and keep a tight grip on the lyrium. Even Harrowmont would hopefully be smart enough to realize that he should accept the offer. Bhelen definitely would. I know Xanthos Aeducan (my avatar) would .

Anyway, there's also the Dalish and the Chasind. The Chasind Barbarians have been said to be a horde unto themselves, and they keep free mages within their society. The Dalish as we know have free mages in their clans as well and are considered heathens for their beliefs. I have no doubt that the rogue Templars would go after both societies for being heathens and keeping free mages.

Likewise, you have to take into account that a good portion of Templars may have sided with the mages and not against. Those that didn't side with the mages will eventually suffer from lyrium withdrawal. Not immediately, but they will run out of money and will need to ransack villages to earn money to even have a chance at buying lyrium. And if Orzammar closes off their lyrium supply, the Rogue Templars would need to resort to smugglers.

It's my opinion that the Dwarves wanted to keep the lyrium to themselves and only dealt with the Chantry to avoid facing an Exalted March. Now that the Chantry has fallen apart and mages are seeking haven anywhere they can, Orzammar can safely keep the lyrium and enlist the aid of the mages in fighting the Darkspawn. Or even just serving as healers for the Dwarves.

The mages unlikely can't win in the short term, but given the fact that this war has been going on for 3 years now (as far as we know), they must be doing something right. They have a pretty good shot in the long term.

[dragonflight288]

Long term, I suspect the mages are largely boned, outside of Tevinter. Which is a shame, since I generally sympathize with the mages (excepting the Kirkwall Circle). I don't see how the mages can hope to gain the sympathy of the Thedasi public. In general they'll distrustful of mages already, and displays of their magic are unlikely to engender much support. People will side with the Templars, if only because of their unease towards mages.

That's at first. Don't forget that templars are addicted to lyrium and that they had left the Chantry. They have lost their source of lyrium, as an army they have no income and no land. Maintaining their equipment, buying food, gathering lyrium, that takes resources and a lot of it. An army of templars, separate from the Chantry, has no income so will ultimately have to scrounge for materials.

Most cases with medieval armies, that meant taking everything not nailed down from the peasants, raping, pillaging, and plundering their way across entire towns in a country so they can maintain their holy war. Add in lyrium withdrawal where who knows how many templars will go insane or die from that, they can quite easily turn all of Thedas against them. The Chantry recruited templars for religious zeal and not for personal integrity. Most templars won't think twice about becoming bandits because they are doing the Maker's work.

[Melca36]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Coming in rather late here, so this has probably already been said.

Long term, I suspect the mages are largely boned, outside of Tevinter. Which is a shame, since I generally sympathize with the mages (excepting the Kirkwall Circle). I don't see how the mages can hope to gain the sympathy of the Thedasi public. In general they'll distrustful of mages already, and displays of their magic are unlikely to engender much support. People will side with the Templars, if only because of their unease towards mages.

You are wrong to assume that everyone will be on the Templars side.....

The mages in Kirkwall had plenty of support from the nobles in ACT 3 if you click on the various npcs talking to them. 

[Augustei]

Melca36 wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Coming in rather late here, so this has probably already been said.

Long term, I suspect the mages are largely boned, outside of Tevinter. Which is a shame, since I generally sympathize with the mages (excepting the Kirkwall Circle). I don't see how the mages can hope to gain the sympathy of the Thedasi public. In general they'll distrustful of mages already, and displays of their magic are unlikely to engender much support. People will side with the Templars, if only because of their unease towards mages.

You are wrong to assume that everyone will be on the Templars side.....

The mages in Kirkwall had plenty of support from the nobles in ACT 3 if you click on the various npcs talking to them. 

Thats if you support orsino at the start of the act, if you side with Meredith they are pro-templar.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anyway, there's also the Dalish and the Chasind. The Chasind Barbarians
have been said to be a horde unto themselves, and they keep free mages
within their society. The Dalish as we know have free mages in their
clans as well and are considered heathens for their beliefs. I have no
doubt that the rogue Templars would go after both societies for being
heathens and keeping free mages.

The Dalish are unlikely to get involved, the last time they stood up for freedom the people they sided with went to war with them (The Fall of the Dales) the dalish are all about never forgetting what happened the last time they got involved in a human conflict, I dont think they are likely to get involved in another. Especially considering its not just the chantry that mistreats elves and makes them unwelcome to society but the monarchies and people of the countries of thedas as well. They wont benefit much from getting involved in the mage-templar war.

The Chasind I dont think care about the rest of society they seemingly just keep to themselves and the chantry and people dont bother them and visa versa, I dont think they will help out either

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 29 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[TEWR]

The Dalish are unlikely to get involved, the last time they stood up for freedom the people they sided with went to war with them (The Fall of the Dales) the dalish are all about never forgetting what happened the last time they got involved in a human conflict, I dont think they are likely to get involved in another. Especially considering its not just the chantry that mistreats elves and makes them unwelcome to society but the monarchies and people of the countries of thedas as well. They wont benefit much from getting involved in the mage-templar war.

The Chasind I dont think care about the rest of society they seemingly just keep to themselves and the chantry and people dont bother them and visa versa, I dont think they will help out either

The last time the Dalish waged a war against anyone was against the Tevinter Imperium, and the Fall of the Dales was the result of the Chantry being colossal pricks to them. They have plenty of reason to want to fight now. The Chantry is weak and the Templars are a threat to the people (or will be eventually when they need their fix).

They'll either aid the mages indirectly or directly, but they will aid them nevertheless.

[Dave of Canada]

Dalish are cowards, though. They rarely go in direct conflict and are often driven up, rarely standing up to themselves and always blaming other people for their downtrodden state (though that'd depend on which side you believe, though the Dalish will obviously believe their version).

In addition to this, they feel no loyalty to anybody but their own. City Elves? Bah, they deserve their suffering!

I doubt they'd throw their (seperated and hardly united) lot in with a bunch of people which society already hates, that might motivate society to hunt down the Dalish even more. Maybe attempt to wipe them out.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 août 2011 - 06:08 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dalish are unlikely to get involved, the last time they stood up for freedom the people they sided with went to war with them (The Fall of the Dales) the dalish are all about never forgetting what happened the last time they got involved in a human conflict, I dont think they are likely to get involved in another. Especially considering its not just the chantry that mistreats elves and makes them unwelcome to society but the monarchies and people of the countries of thedas as well. They wont benefit much from getting involved in the mage-templar war.

The Chasind I dont think care about the rest of society they seemingly just keep to themselves and the chantry and people dont bother them and visa versa, I dont think they will help out either

... and the Fall of the Dales was the result of the Chantry being colossal pricks to them.

Or was it?

[TEWR]

That they don't actively seek a conflict doesn't make them cowards. If they fought everyone that held animosity towards them there wouldn't be many Dalish left. They will defend themselves if need be, but try their best to avoid a conflict because it would eventually lead to them losing too many elves. Which goes against their mantra of every elf being valuable.

And they do take in City Elves. Not all are converts. Pol is a City Elf who was having trouble adjusting from one faith to another, and Marethari's clan gladly accepted him. He was an elf who had left the human cities. Lanaya and Aneirin were the same. The only criteria that's absolutely needed seems to be "Leave the human cities". The Dalish aren't so stupid to think that a City Elf can cast aside the religion he was brought up to believe in so easily. It's a gradual process.

And the Mages' Collective has been improving the perception of magic, so mages aren't as hated as people think.

Not to mention there's an entire group of Dalish elves that camp outside of Llomerryn safely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I can see the Dalish joining in only if the mages show that they stand a chance at winning. But both the mages and the Dalish would require unifying leaders. So an alliance would take *a lot* of work.

But mages openly supporting the creation of a Dalish state (why else would the Dalish help them?), aka removing human populations from lands they lived in for centuries to give to "pagan heathens", might not be the best idea, as it would probably alienate them even more than they are already alienated.

If I was a mage, I'd strive to get human allies. The Dalish would be a last resort (and I'd most likely backstab them later anyways to appease humans and reach peace).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 août 2011 - 06:54 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dalish are unlikely to get involved, the last time they stood up for freedom the people they sided with went to war with them (The Fall of the Dales) the dalish are all about never forgetting what happened the last time they got involved in a human conflict, I dont think they are likely to get involved in another. Especially considering its not just the chantry that mistreats elves and makes them unwelcome to society but the monarchies and people of the countries of thedas as well. They wont benefit much from getting involved in the mage-templar war.

The Chasind I dont think care about the rest of society they seemingly just keep to themselves and the chantry and people dont bother them and visa versa, I dont think they will help out either

... and the Fall of the Dales was the result of the Chantry being colossal pricks to them.

Or was it?

It's far more likely that Orlais and the Chantry started the whole thing. They had just barely survived the 2nd Blight and much of their fertile land was tainted. The elves supposedly didn't assist with the Blight (I doubt anyone is stupid enough to actually think the Blight - a proven-to-be Blight - wouldn't need attention).

Orlais has a history of conquering lands for both political and religious purposes. They believe in expansionism. They could easily start up conflicts with the elves and when the elves struck back Orlais and the Chantry called for an Exalted March.

All the elves wanted to do was isolate themselves from humanity and regain their culture. Starting a war with humans defeats the purpose of isolationism. The Chantry can't even respect the beliefs of other people because they're so brainwashed by their own dogma. They call anyone who doesn't believe in the Maker a heathen and give them two choices: convert or die.

You can live or you can die. That's called coercion, you know. --- Cliff Fittir

Given the lore and history that we know, I'm more inclined to believe the Dalish were innocent (or at least mostly innocent) of the entire thing.

[Augustei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dalish are unlikely to get involved, the last time they stood up for freedom the people they sided with went to war with them (The Fall of the Dales) the dalish are all about never forgetting what happened the last time they got involved in a human conflict, I dont think they are likely to get involved in another. Especially considering its not just the chantry that mistreats elves and makes them unwelcome to society but the monarchies and people of the countries of thedas as well. They wont benefit much from getting involved in the mage-templar war.

The Chasind I dont think care about the rest of society they seemingly just keep to themselves and the chantry and people dont bother them and visa versa, I dont think they will help out either

The last time the Dalish waged a war against anyone was against the Tevinter Imperium, and the Fall of the Dales was the result of the Chantry being colossal pricks to them. They have plenty of reason to want to fight now. The Chantry is weak and the Templars are a threat to the people (or will be eventually when they need their fix).

They'll either aid the mages indirectly or directly, but they will aid them nevertheless.

Yeah so they will overthrow the chantry alongside the mages! yay now they will be accepted among humans and have a place in society and be able to establish permanent settlements.. Oh wait, no they wont because the humans will still not trust them, perhaps hate them and still drive them away if they stay in one place to long

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I can see the Dalish joining in only if the mages show that they stand a
chance at winning. But both the mages and the Dalish would require
unifying leaders. So an alliance would take *a lot* of work.

But
mages openly supporting the creation of a Dalish state (why else would
the Dalish help them?), aka removing human populations from lands they
lived in for centuries to give to "pagan heathens", might not be the
best idea, as it would probably alienate them even more than they are
already alienated.

The creation of a Dalish state is not something the mages could promise them, thats up to the monarchies. If the Mages start trying to call the shots within nations they will find themselves with very few allies

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 29 août 2011 - 10:21 .

[Rifneno]

If they did indeed refuse to help defeat a blight, and given the hateful belligerence of the Dalish I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they did... then yes, they are total cowards.

[Augustei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dalish are unlikely to get involved, the last time they stood up for freedom the people they sided with went to war with them (The Fall of the Dales) the dalish are all about never forgetting what happened the last time they got involved in a human conflict, I dont think they are likely to get involved in another. Especially considering its not just the chantry that mistreats elves and makes them unwelcome to society but the monarchies and people of the countries of thedas as well. They wont benefit much from getting involved in the mage-templar war.

The Chasind I dont think care about the rest of society they seemingly just keep to themselves and the chantry and people dont bother them and visa versa, I dont think they will help out either

... and the Fall of the Dales was the result of the Chantry being colossal pricks to them.

Or was it?

It's far more likely that Orlais and the Chantry started the whole thing. They had just barely survived the 2nd Blight and much of their fertile land was tainted. The elves supposedly didn't assist with the Blight (I doubt anyone is stupid enough to actually think the Blight - a proven-to-be Blight - wouldn't need attention).

Orlais has a history of conquering lands for both political and religious purposes. They believe in expansionism. They could easily start up conflicts with the elves and when the elves struck back Orlais and the Chantry called for an Exalted March.

All the elves wanted to do was isolate themselves from humanity and regain their culture. Starting a war with humans defeats the purpose of isolationism. The Chantry can't even respect the beliefs of other people because they're so brainwashed by their own dogma. They call anyone who doesn't believe in the Maker a heathen and give them two choices: convert or die.

You can live or you can die. That's called coercion, you know. --- Cliff Fittir

Given the lore and history that we know, I'm more inclined to believe the Dalish were innocent (or at least mostly innocent) of the entire thing.

Elves innocent.. Idk, theres a rumor in one of the codex's I think that the elves are the ones who first taught blood magic to the first archon and not dumat at all. They study the depths of Dark magic and created the eluvian's which seem to go to the black city, what if Tevinters actions were just mimicing that of the elves. If you ask me Arlathan being destroyed mighten have been such a bad thing.. Something doesn't seem quite right about the ancient elves.. And the fact their immortal elders come out of the ground and try to kill you in DA2, and their Varterrals try to kill you as well.. Yeah I dont trust em..

As for the dales though, I think the whole Orlais and chantry being closely intertwined has made the responsable persons difficult to identify. But do remember the elves attacked red crossing and butchered everyone there, women, children, priests etc etc. Even if they were provoked their response was extreme and irrational. But it being the chantrys fault isn't clear at all.

Orlais's fault, more likely because as you said blight devistated country, no fertile land etc etc. The Chantry didn't call an Exalted March until the elves had reached Val Royeaux however, thats quite alot of the Orlesian country side destroyed until the chantry got involved. - If it was originally their causing this it would be terrible for Orlesian relations if they didn't do anything about it until they reached their capital. Some of the divines seem quite stupid but not that stupid.

I think it'd be either Orlais or the Dales fault more likely than the chantry

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 29 août 2011 - 10:32 .

[ChaplainTappman]

I doubt the Dalish or the Chasind will get involved, unless the mages or Templars choose to involve them. Neither group is particularly concerned with the issues of "civilized" Thedas.

It's true that there are templars who are less zealous than others, even including Knight-Commanders like Gregoir. But I suspect that they'd have been cast out of the Order, or (more likely) killed outright when the Order split from the Chantry. It's also true that, once cut off from the Chantry, the templars' means of subsistence are unlikely to garner much support. But they have an easier time of gaining that support than the mages do. People inherently don't understand and fear magic. Even well educated people would be likely to take from the Kirkwall mages' revolt that, when freed from Chantry supervision, mages will resort to "evil" blood magic (whether or not it's actually evil is another topic). The reality is that the Kirkwall mage revolt was led by an insane blood mage and an abomination, and overt rebellion was started by a mage destroying the Kirkwall Chantry, killing one of the most respected and beloved Revered Mothers in Thedas. I just think it'll be hard to regain sympathy and support after that.

[SkittlesKat96]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

I doubt the Dalish or the Chasind will get involved, unless the mages or Templars choose to involve them. Neither group is particularly concerned with the issues of "civilized" Thedas.

Indeed, the Chasind particularly since they seem to almost of another world and have pretty much nothing to do with the rest of Thedas if I recall.

The Dalish on the other hand still might possibly get involved if the Chantry provokes them. The Chantry is in disarray but still, anything could happen. The Chantry are complete pricks to the Dalish.

Also I think it might be possible that the Grey Wardens will have to side with a group, they aren't meant to but in DA 2 its clear that they have something urgent to address which might tie in with the Mage vs. templar war.

As for the Dwarves I'm not totally sure. They would be a useful ally, even if just through trade...

[CrimsonZephyr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I can see the Dalish joining in only if the mages show that they stand a chance at winning. But both the mages and the Dalish would require unifying leaders. So an alliance would take *a lot* of work.

But mages openly supporting the creation of a Dalish state (why else would the Dalish help them?), aka removing human populations from lands they lived in for centuries to give to "pagan heathens", might not be the best idea, as it would probably alienate them even more than they are already alienated.

If I was a mage, I'd strive to get human allies. The Dalish would be a last resort (and I'd most likely backstab them later anyways to appease humans and reach peace).

Here's an easy one: Go to Ferelden and Nevarra, offer to help them against Orlais in exchange for legal emancipation from the Chantry. Go to Dalish, offer them Halamshiral in exchange for helping them sack Val Royeaux. Once the Dalish are weakened and Orlais is put down, give them the city, but isolate it with fortresses and such. Keep elves as vassals.

Fereldans in particular have a much greater hatred for Orlesians than they ever did elves.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

If they did indeed refuse to help defeat a blight, and given the hateful belligerence of the Dalish I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they did... then yes, they are total cowards.

Well, the Blight was mostly hitting the rather vicious and oppressive Orlais, so I'm not completely sure I can blame them.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

If they did indeed refuse to help defeat a blight, and given the hateful belligerence of the Dalish I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they did... then yes, they are total cowards.

Well, the Blight was mostly hitting the rather vicious and oppressive Orlais, so I'm not completely sure I can blame them.

And what happens when the darkspawn are done with Orlais?  There are some foes that require civilization to put aside their differences for a moment so there will be a future for them to bicker over.

[Xilizhra]

Tell me how many people actually understand the magnitude of a Blight, outside the Grey Wardens. Especially when it's only the second one and no one outside of the Anderfels and Tevinter has seen one at all.

[Darius Vir]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tell me how many people actually understand the magnitude of a Blight, outside the Grey Wardens. Especially when it's only the second one and no one outside of the Anderfels and Tevinter has seen one at all.

Right, but the First Blight lasted for about two hundred years.  It also occurred during a time when most Elves lived within the Tevinter Imperium.  So if they did ANY sort of passing along of stories and history throughout the generations-which they apparently did- then the Dales should have known full well what the Blight could mean.  

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tell me how many people actually understand the magnitude of a Blight, outside the Grey Wardens. Especially when it's only the second one and no one outside of the Anderfels and Tevinter has seen one at all.

If anything that makes it way, way worse.  They had to assume it'd be similar to the First Blight which was arguably more devestating than the other four combined.  Since they don't believe in Andraste being divine or the Maker, they believed that the last Blight brought the most powerful empire the world has ever seen to its knees so badly that a bunch of barbarians could conquor it.

Of course they can't understand the magnitude of it.  No one can.  The human brain simply cannot comprehend millions of lives.  We know the definition, but it doesn't truly register.  I believe scientists determined we cap out at around 200.  Hence that old line, "one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic."  Like nuclear weapons in our own world.  We can't begin to understand the damage they're capable of.  But we know that it's something that needs to be avoided at all costs.  Same with the elves, they should have had the tiniest shred of common sense required to understand that a blight is no time for racism.

[Xilizhra]

I'll admit that the Dalish erred there, but it really didn't warrant the destruction of the Dales as petty revenge.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Elves innocent.. Idk, theres a rumor in one of the codex's I think that the elves are the ones who first taught blood magic to the first archon and not dumat at all.

It's part of the Ages article, where the scholars wonder if the Arlathan elves taught Tevinter how to use blood magic instead of the Tevinter lore that states it was Dumat. Merrill also eludes to the Arlathan elves knowing blood magic as part of her justification for using it.

XxDeonxX wrote...

They study the depths of Dark magic and created the eluvian's which seem to go to the black city, what if Tevinters actions were just mimicing that of the elves. If you ask me Arlathan being destroyed mighten have been such a bad thing.. Something doesn't seem quite right about the ancient elves.. And the fact their immortal elders come out of the ground and try to kill you in DA2, and their Varterrals try to kill you as well.. Yeah I dont trust em..

I don't believe in "dark magic." Magic is magic; it can be used for good or bad. Also, spirits try to kill Hawke. It's clearly not how things are supposed to work out normally, as Merrill addressed.

XxDeonxXwrote...

As for the dales though, I think the whole Orlais and chantry being closely intertwined has made the responsable persons difficult to identify. But do remember the elves attacked red crossing and butchered everyone there, women, children, priests etc etc. Even if they were provoked their response was extreme and irrational. But it being the chantrys fault isn't clear at all.

Extreme and irrational? The elves attacked Red Crossing. Was the attack provoked by the templars being sent into the Dales because the missionaries were turned away, as the Dalish Warden codex suggests? If so, is the Orlesian version biased against the elves, trying to paint them as villains? All I know is that Orlais has a history of conquest, starting with its inception, and the Chantry (which was created by the first Orlesian Emperor, Drakon I) has supported their conquest, as we saw with the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Orlais's fault, more likely because as you said blight devistated country, no fertile land etc etc. The Chantry didn't call an Exalted March until the elves had reached Val Royeaux however, thats quite alot of the Orlesian country side destroyed until the chantry got involved. - If it was originally their causing this it would be terrible for Orlesian relations if they didn't do anything about it until they reached their capital. Some of the divines seem quite stupid but not that stupid.

I think it'd be either Orlais or the Dales fault more likely than the chantry

Orlais and the Chantry are intertwined. The Chantry's seat of power is based in Orlais, and the Chantry of Andraste was created by the first Orlesian Emperor. The Dalish also claimed that the war started because templars were sent into the Dales when the elves refused to convert and kicked out the human missionaries, according to the codex with the Dalish Warden.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 août 2011 - 02:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dalish are unlikely to get involved, the last time they stood up for freedom the people they sided with went to war with them (The Fall of the Dales) the dalish are all about never forgetting what happened the last time they got involved in a human conflict, I dont think they are likely to get involved in another. Especially considering its not just the chantry that mistreats elves and makes them unwelcome to society but the monarchies and people of the countries of thedas as well. They wont benefit much from getting involved in the mage-templar war.

The Chasind I dont think care about the rest of society they seemingly just keep to themselves and the chantry and people dont bother them and visa versa, I dont think they will help out either

... and the Fall of the Dales was the result of the Chantry being colossal pricks to them.

Or was it?

It's far more likely that Orlais and the Chantry started the whole thing. They had just barely survived the 2nd Blight and much of their fertile land was tainted. The elves supposedly didn't assist with the Blight (I doubt anyone is stupid enough to actually think the Blight - a proven-to-be Blight - wouldn't need attention).

Orlais has a history of conquering lands for both political and religious purposes. They believe in expansionism. They could easily start up conflicts with the elves and when the elves struck back Orlais and the Chantry called for an Exalted March.

All the elves wanted to do was isolate themselves from humanity and regain their culture. Starting a war with humans defeats the purpose of isolationism. The Chantry can't even respect the beliefs of other people because they're so brainwashed by their own dogma. They call anyone who doesn't believe in the Maker a heathen and give them two choices: convert or die.

You can live or you can die. That's called coercion, you know. --- Cliff Fittir

Given the lore and history that we know, I'm more inclined to believe the Dalish were innocent (or at least mostly innocent) of the entire thing.

So Orlais is, in its weakened state, supposed to have attack a superior force, with the intention of invasion? Yeah. Not likely.

[TEWR]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Elves innocent.. Idk, theres a rumor in one of the codex's I think that the elves are the ones who first taught blood magic to the first archon and not dumat at all. They study the depths of Dark magic and created the eluvian's which seem to go to the black city, what if Tevinters actions were just mimicing that of the elves. If you ask me Arlathan being destroyed mighten have been such a bad thing.. Something doesn't seem quite right about the ancient elves.. And the fact their immortal elders come out of the ground and try to kill you in DA2, and their Varterrals try to kill you as well.. Yeah I dont trust em..

As for the dales though, I think the whole Orlais and chantry being closely intertwined has made the responsable persons difficult to identify. But do remember the elves attacked red crossing and butchered everyone there, women, children, priests etc etc. Even if they were provoked their response was extreme and irrational. But it being the chantrys fault isn't clear at all.

Orlais's fault, more likely because as you said blight devistated country, no fertile land etc etc. The Chantry didn't call an Exalted March until the elves had reached Val Royeaux however, thats quite alot of the Orlesian country side destroyed until the chantry got involved. - If it was originally their causing this it would be terrible for Orlesian relations if they didn't do anything about it until they reached their capital. Some of the divines seem quite stupid but not that stupid.

I think it'd be either Orlais or the Dales fault more likely than the chantry

I doubt the Eluvians lead to the Black City. Now, perhaps the Tevinters used some ancient spells that have long since been forgotten to make them do that, but even that's something I doubt.

As for the attack on Red Crossing, I don't even know what to think of it. It may not have even happened. But I do know the Chantry does abhor the elven pantheon and spread rumors about the Dalish doing human sacrifices (which a Dalish elf can point out to Pol isn't true).

Val Royeaux isn't that far away from the Dales. In fact, it's one of the closest major cities to the Dales that's in Orlesian territory.

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

So Orlais is, in its weakened state, supposed to have attack a superior force, with the intention of invasion? Yeah. Not likely

And why not? Andraste waged war on the Imperium nearly 3 decades after the First Blight ended with an army of slaves who weren't well equipped at all (granted she also had Maferath's forces with her). The Imperium had better training, better weapons, better everything and they still lost.

If you catch someone while they're off guard, you can win. And remember, Orlais had the Chantry to fall back on. If their invasion failed they could easily use the Chantry to win. The Chantry had been established for a long time prior to the Fall of the Dales.

Orlesians are shrewd and cunning people. No doubt that they planned for this to happen. If they successfully take over the Dales, they could spread lies about why they did it. If the Dalish Elves fought back and pushed the Orlesians to desperation, they could go to the Chantry in Val Royeaux and plead for assistance against the heathens.

Given the fact that the Chantry priests tried to get them to convert and then sent armed forces to forcibly convert them, I don't trust the Chantry one bit. They have no respect for other peoples' beliefs.

Then there's the fact that there was only one Elven city built in the Dales: Halamshiral. The Dales were certainly big enough to have more than one city, but they only had one. Why would the elves invade Orlais and leave their only city virtually unguarded? They wouldn't, because that would be beyond stupid. On the other hand, Orlais had more than one city.

There's also the fact that they're isolationists. They don't want anything to do with humans. They wouldn't even trade with them and they posted Emerald Knights at the border to see that humans wouldn't come into the city. They just wanted to be left alone and you're saying they were the ones who started the conflict?

And then there's the fact that many elves either perished or gave up during the Long Walk to the Dales.