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[Dave of Canada]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

The Dalish on the other hand still might possibly get involved if the Chantry provokes them. The Chantry is in disarray but still, anything could happen. The Chantry are complete pricks to the Dalish.

It's not just the Chantry though, everybody are complete pricks to the Dalish. Anybody who'd cooperate with the Dalish would be hard to find, especially if it's any non-mage human army.

[dragonflight288]

The Fereldens wouldn't have a hard time getting along with the Dalish if they helped fight the blight. Especially if Lanaya is leading them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The goodwill the dalish earned didn't last forever according to the epilogue. Tension arose again, so the Fereldens and the dalish are not allies, especially considering that the Dalish boon ended badly for some reason.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

So Orlais is, in its weakened state, supposed to have attack a superior force, with the intention of invasion? Yeah. Not likely

And why not? Andraste waged war on the Imperium nearly 3 decades after the First Blight ended with an army of slaves who weren't well equipped at all (granted she also had Maferath's forces with her). The Imperium had better training, better weapons, better everything and they still lost.

Tevinter was weakened, by a Blight, failed harvest AND slave rebellion. Safe to say that Tevinter was not at its best, yet they did not lose. Andraste never defeated the Imperium.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If you catch someone while they're off guard, you can win. And remember, Orlais had the Chantry to fall back on. If their invasion failed they could easily use the Chantry to win. The Chantry had been established for a long time prior to the Fall of the Dales.

You don't attack from a weakened posistion unless you got no choice.Orlais simply had no reason to attack the Dales. At least not yet, in their weakened state. Perhaps later when they had had time to recuperate. Vengeance for the Dales' abandonment of the human nations.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Orlesians are shrewd and cunning people. No doubt that they planned for this to happen. If they successfully take over the Dales, they could spread lies about why they did it. If the Dalish Elves fought back and pushed the Orlesians to desperation, they could go to the Chantry in Val Royeaux and plead for assistance against the heathens.

So Orlais planned for themselves to be struck by a Blight, and lose half their country, and for an Exalted March to save them? You don't even ehar how unlikely and "conspiccary theorist"-like that sound?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Given the fact that the Chantry priests tried to get them to convert and then sent armed forces to forcibly convert them, I don't trust the Chantry one bit. They have no respect for other peoples' beliefs.

I take you use the Dalish entry as your source? The same on which doesn't even mention the Exalted march, unless those Templars it does mention, is actually a reference to the Templars leading the Exalted March, which was only much later. That entry is worth absolutely nothing in terms of credibility.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Then there's the fact that there was only one Elven city built in the Dales: Halamshiral. The Dales were certainly big enough to have more than one city, but they only had one. Why would the elves invade Orlais and leave their only city virtually unguarded? They wouldn't, because that would be beyond stupid. On the other hand, Orlais had more than one city.

They had one major city, but several settlements. This is probably an homage to the way of the Arlathan Elves, who also only had one major city, but several settlements. The Elves would attack Orlais, because the peaceful missionaries angered the Elves, or because the Elves were angered by the border skirmishes which did occur.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
There's also the fact that they're isolationists. They don't want anything to do with humans. They wouldn't even trade with them and they posted Emerald Knights at the border to see that humans wouldn't come into the city. They just wanted to be left alone and you're saying they were the ones who started the conflict?

What does it matter they are isolationists? They are not going to take all provocation just because they are isolationists. They were provoked by the presence of missionaries, and the border skirmishes, and decided to end the "threat".

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And then there's the fact that many elves either perished or gave up during the Long Walk to the Dales.

Uhm... Did the long walk take place more thhan a millenium before the Fall of the Dales?...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It wasn't millennia but I think it was many generations prior to the Fall of the Dales.

[TEWR]

Tevinter was weakened, by a Blight, failed harvest AND slave rebellion. Safe to say that Tevinter was not at its best, yet they did not lose. Andraste never defeated the Imperium.

I didn't say they were at their best. They were just better than the slave rebellion. And the failed harvest was a result of Andraste burning their lands.

You don't attack from a weakened posistion unless you got no choice.Orlais simply had no reason to attack the Dales. At least not yet, in their weakened state. Perhaps later when they had had time to recuperate. Vengeance for the Dales' abandonment of the human nations.

They had plenty of reasons. Fertile land being the biggest one. Much of their land was destroyed by the Darkspawn. However, Emperor Kordilius Drakon II led his troops alongside the Tevinter Imperium's troops against the Blight.

The 2nd Blight began in the Free Marches and destroyed the city of Nordbotten. The Grey Wardens managed to spread the word, and it was through the combined efforts of Orlais, Tevinter, the Grey Wardens, and other factions that the Blight was defeated. Though much of Orlais' land was destroyed by the Blight (and remember, Orlaid had owned a lot of land before the Blight), that does not say anything about how much of their army was destroyed.

Destruction of land =/= Destruction of an army.

The 2nd blight ended in 1:95 Divine, and the war against the Dales started in 2:9 Glory. That's 14 years. While not enough for Orlais to rebuild if they lost much of their army, it is enough time for them to contemplate betraying the Dalish Elves and retaking the land if their army wasn't destroyed.

So Orlais planned for themselves to be struck by a Blight, and lose half their country, and for an Exalted March to save them? You don't even ehar how unlikely and "conspiccary theorist"-like that sound?

Not what I said at all. You just enjoy twisting peoples' words around don't you?

I said they planned for everything following the Blight. They can't plan for the Blight itself (though for some reason David Gaider said some Wardens know exactly where the Old Gods are). They could plan for everything that followed though if their army wasn't destroyed but their fertile land was.

They had one major city, but several settlements. This is probably an homage to the way of the Arlathan Elves, who also only had one major city, but several settlements. The Elves would attack Orlais, because the peaceful missionaries angered the Elves, or because the Elves were angered by the border skirmishes which did occur.

Everything I've read has said that they only had one place to live in the Dales, and that was Halamshiral.

What does it matter they are isolationists? They are not going to take all provocation just because they are isolationists. They were provoked by the presence of missionaries, and the border skirmishes, and decided to end the "threat".

Last I checked, isolationists prefer not to get involved in anything political with other countries and prefer peace.

Uhm... Did the long walk take place more thhan a millenium before the Fall of the Dales?...

3 centuries before the Fall of the Dales. I don't see your point

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I didn't say they were at their best. They were just better than the slave rebellion. And the failed harvest was a result of Andraste burning their lands.

Or, rather, the intervention of the Maker.

Prove me wrong. 

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I didn't say they were at their best. They were just better than the slave rebellion. And the failed harvest was a result of Andraste burning their lands.

Or, rather, the intervention of the Maker.

Prove me wrong. 

I can't, but I find like to entertain the thought that Andraste was the Razikale OGB (Dragon of Mystery makes more sense than Dragon of Silence, plus scholars argue for a long time about which Old God was which in the Blights, so they could be wrong. And that the Razikale OGB is Flemeth, and that she was a Somniari blood mage.

Of course, Flemeth could also be Fen'Harel.

Or the Formless One.

But that's just a bunch of speculation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]Tevinter was weakened, by a Blight, failed harvest AND slave rebellion. Safe to say that Tevinter was not at its best, yet they did not lose. Andraste never defeated the Imperium.
[/quote]

I didn't say they were at their best. They were just better than the slave rebellion. And the failed harvest was a result of Andraste burning their lands.[/quote]
Or it was simply a drought. The reference to the Maker simply allegory.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]You don't attack from a weakened posistion unless you got no choice.Orlais simply had no reason to attack the Dales. At least not yet, in their weakened state. Perhaps later when they had had time to recuperate. Vengeance for the Dales' abandonment of the human nations.[/quote]They had plenty of reasons. Fertile land being the biggest one. Much of their land was destroyed by the Darkspawn. However, Emperor Kordilius Drakon II led his troops alongside the Tevinter Imperium's troops against the Blight.

The 2nd Blight began in the Free Marches and destroyed the city of Nordbotten. The Grey Wardens managed to spread the word, and it was through the combined efforts of Orlais, Tevinter, the Grey Wardens, and other factions that the Blight was defeated. Though much of Orlais' land was destroyed by the Blight (and remember, Orlaid had owned a lot of land before the Blight), that does not say anything about how much of their army was destroyed.

Destruction of land =/= Destruction of an army. [/quote]
Destruction of the land very much equals destruction of the army. Without fertile lands to sustain the army, the army dissolves. If Orlais was devestated by the Blight, their resources will also have been lost, which means the army will have had less to make use of.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The 2nd blight ended in 1:95 Divine, and the war against the Dales started in 2:9 Glory. That's 14 years. While not enough for Orlais to rebuild if they lost much of their army, it is enough time for them to contemplate betraying the Dalish Elves and retaking the land if their army wasn't destroyed.[/quote]
What makes you think that Orlais didn't lose much of their army? During ALL other Blights the nations involved lost much of their forces. Why should the second Blight be any different? Except for the purpose of victimizing the poor Elves, and further villify Orlais and the Chantry?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]So Orlais planned for themselves to be struck by a Blight, and lose half their country, and for an Exalted March to save them? You don't even ehar how unlikely and "conspiccary theorist"-like that sound?[/quote]

Not what I said at all. You just enjoy twisting peoples' words around don't you?

I said they planned for everything following the Blight. They can't plan for the Blight itself (though for some reason David Gaider said some Wardens know exactly where the Old Gods are). They could plan for everything that followed though if their army wasn't destroyed but their fertile land was. [/quote]
Again, why on earth would Orlais attack in their weakened state? They could just aswell have asked for financial support, aswell as some relief in the form of resources. If the Elves again refused, I can fully understand Orlais desperate attack, and then the Elves are to blame anyway.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



[quote]They had one major city, but several settlements. This is probably an homage to the way of the Arlathan Elves, who also only had one major city, but several settlements. The Elves would attack Orlais, because the peaceful missionaries angered the Elves, or because the Elves were angered by the border skirmishes which did occur.[/quote]

Everything I've read has said that they only had one place to live in the Dales, and that was Halamshiral. [/quote]
Orlais uprooted several Elven settlements when they took the Dales. That implies there were many settlements were the Elves lived, but that their major hub was Halamshiral.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]What does it matter they are isolationists? They are not going to take all provocation just because they are isolationists. They were provoked by the presence of missionaries, and the border skirmishes, and decided to end the "threat".[/quote]

Last I checked, isolationists prefer not to get involved in anything political with other countries and prefer peace.[/quote]
They prefer to be left alone, but if someone persists in trying to interact with them, they will forcefully prevent it.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]Uhm... Did the long walk take place more thhan a millenium before the Fall of the Dales?... [/quote]

3 centuries before the Fall of the Dales. I don't see your point[/quote]
My point was, that the Long Walk had absolutely nothing to do with the Fall of the Dales.

[TEWR]

Or it was simply a drought. The reference to the Maker simply allegory.

While possible, I think it was more due to Andraste being a mage (she would spend days or even weeks meditating and was given the powers of the Maker according to the stories). A drought and a vicious torrent of water happening in quick succession is a bit of a stretch to pin on nature when there's also magic.

The Maker kindled the sun's flame, scorching the land. Their crops failed, and their armies could not march. Then He opened the heavens and bade the waters flow, and washed away their filth. --- Disciple Cathaire.

I like to think she was a Somniari blood mage.

Destruction of the land very much equals destruction of the army. Without fertile lands to sustain the army, the army dissolves. If Orlais was devestated by the Blight, their resources will also have been lost, which means the army will have had less to make use of.

Ah so you now admit that if their fertile land was destroyed but not their army, they would have plenty of reason to take back the Dales because it's fertile land. Good to know

Though we should take into account that they may have been keeping themselves stable through trading with other countries. And that they may have done so until they could wage a war against the Dalish with full force. In fact, the Chantry probably received donations from people all over Thedas and used it to help rebuild the country.

What makes you think that Orlais didn't lose much of their army? During ALL other Blights the nations involved lost much of their forces. Why should the second Blight be any different? Except for the purpose of victimizing the poor Elves, and further villify Orlais and the Chantry?

Because it was the combined forces of various nations. Sure they will have had many casualties, but they had the Tevinter Imperium's forces (Magus and soldier both) as well as the Grey Wardens of the Free Marches, Orlais, and Tevinter.

Given that and the fact that they made many sweeping victories against the Darkspawn where they defeated droves of them, I don't think their losses were so bad as to almost destroy the Orlesian army. They did suffer heavy losses, but I don't think those heavy losses destroyed the army.

And even if it did, I imagine many people will have done what the Redcliffe citizens did and joined the army to help rebuild.

Again, why on earth would Orlais attack in their weakened state? They could just aswell have asked for financial support, aswell as some relief in the form of resources. If the Elves again refused, I can fully understand Orlais desperate attack, and then the Elves are to blame anyway.

Because either way they would win. Orlais is the seat of Chantry power and the Chantry had been spreading lies about the elven religion. They said they made human sacrifices to their gods (something that the Dalish Warden can point out isn't true at all).

Even if Orlais was losing, eventually the Divine would have to call for an Exalted March if Val Royeaux was threatened (which it was), and Orlesians are cunning people, given how the Game works. Orlais is full of political intrigue. They probably accounted for the Chantry fighting on their side. The Orlesian army, however weak, had the Templars to fall back upon. That would immediately make up for the loss of any soldiers, and as I said above they most likely received donations from all over Thedas through the Chantry to keep themselves going.

Orlais uprooted several Elven settlements when they took the Dales. That implies there were many settlements were the Elves lived, but that their major hub was Halamshiral.

Could you give me a source to this information? Because for the life of me I can't remember where it was stated.

My point was, that the Long Walk had absolutely nothing to do with the Fall of the Dales.

Ehh.... I'll settle for an "it's iffy". I think it might have had something to do with it.

[dragonflight288]

These debates are always fun to watch.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]Or it was simply a drought. The reference to the Maker simply allegory.[/quote]

While possible, I think it was more due to Andraste being a mage (she would spend days or even weeks meditating and was given the powers of the Maker according to the stories). A drought and a vicious torrent of water happening in quick succession is a bit of a stretch to pin on nature when there's also magic.

The Maker kindled the sun's flame, scorching the land. Their crops failed, and their armies could not march. Then He opened the heavens and bade the waters flow, and washed away their filth. --- Disciple Cathaire.

I like to think she was a Somniari blood mage.[/quote]
And I like to think she was just a normal human, who has since been attributed divine/magical abilities.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]Destruction of the land very much equals destruction of the army. Without fertile lands to sustain the army, the army dissolves. If Orlais was devestated by the Blight, their resources will also have been lost, which means the army will have had less to make use of.[/quote]

Ah so you now admit that if their fertile land was destroyed but not their army, they would have plenty of reason to take back the Dales because it's fertile land. Good to know

Though we should take into account that they may have been keeping themselves stable through trading with other countries. And that they may have done so until they could wage a war against the Dalish with full force. In fact, the Chantry probably received donations from people all over Thedas and used it to help rebuild the country.[/quote]
No, I admit that with their lands devastated, Orlais could have a reason to invade, BUT that with their lands devastated, they wouldn't be able to suply the upkeep for their armies, and thus they wouldn't be able to invade. Small time border skirmishes, sure. Full out total war? No.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]What makes you think that Orlais didn't lose much of their army? During ALL other Blights the nations involved lost much of their forces. Why should the second Blight be any different? Except for the purpose of victimizing the poor Elves, and further villify Orlais and the Chantry?[/quote]

Because it was the combined forces of various nations. Sure they will have had many casualties, but they had the Tevinter Imperium's forces (Magus and soldier both) as well as the Grey Wardens of the Free Marches, Orlais, and Tevinter.

Given that and the fact that they made many sweeping victories against the Darkspawn where they defeated droves of them, I don't think their losses were so bad as to almost destroy the Orlesian army. They did suffer heavy losses, but I don't think those heavy losses destroyed the army.

And even if it did, I imagine many people will have done what the Redcliffe citizens did and joined the army to help rebuild.[/quote]
All other Blights have also been defeated by the combined forces of Thedas (except the Fifth), but at great cost for all invovled. And while the Blight itself may not have directly destroyed the Orlesian army, it will have destroyed their lands, which would in turn starve the country, and preventing the army to function at full capacity.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]Again, why on earth would Orlais attack in their weakened state? They could just aswell have asked for financial support, aswell as some relief in the form of resources. If the Elves again refused, I can fully understand Orlais desperate attack, and then the Elves are to blame anyway.[/quote]

Because either way they would win. Orlais is the seat of Chantry power and the Chantry had been spreading lies about the elven religion. They said they made human sacrifices to their gods (something that the Dalish Warden can point out isn't true at all).

Even if Orlais was losing, eventually the Divine would have to call for an Exalted March if Val Royeaux was threatened (which it was), and Orlesians are cunning people, given how the Game works. Orlais is full of political intrigue. They probably accounted for the Chantry fighting on their side. The Orlesian army, however weak, had the Templars to fall back upon. That would immediately make up for the loss of any soldiers, and as I said above they most likely received donations from all over Thedas through the Chantry to keep themselves going.[/quote]
If Orlais really counted on the Chantry's aid, they were sorely mistaken. The Chantry did not intervene until Val Royaux itself was threatened. So they should have coutned on losing terribly for the first many years of the war, and only during the last moment count on the Chantry and the rest of Thedas to come to their aid? That is an incredibly stupid gambit to make.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]Orlais uprooted several Elven settlements when they took the Dales. That implies there were many settlements were the Elves lived, but that their major hub was Halamshiral.
[/quote]

Could you give me a source to this information? Because for the life of me I can't remember where it was stated.[/quote]
Several of the Elven codex entries refer to Halamshiral as the first Elven settlement since Arlathan, which seems to imply there were more Elven settlements. But the entry I'm refering to is from the prima guide for DA:O I think.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


[quote]My point was, that the Long Walk had absolutely nothing to do with the Fall of the Dales. [/quote]

Ehh.... I'll settle for an "it's iffy". I think it might have had something to do with it.[/quote]
Okay. I fail to see it though.

[ChaplainTappman]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Indeed, the Chasind particularly since they seem to almost of another world and have pretty much nothing to do with the rest of Thedas if I recall.

The Dalish on the other hand still might possibly get involved if the Chantry provokes them. The Chantry is in disarray but still, anything could happen. The Chantry are complete pricks to the Dalish.

Also I think it might be possible that the Grey Wardens will have to side with a group, they aren't meant to but in DA 2 its clear that they have something urgent to address which might tie in with the Mage vs. templar war.

As for the Dwarves I'm not totally sure. They would be a useful ally, even if just through trade...

The Chantry are complete pricks to the Dalish, but so is everyone else. I imagine the Dalish response to the war would be (to paraphrase an Irish rebel song) "let shemlen men fight shemlen wars."

I don't see the Wardens getting involved unless a Blight were to break out, and I don't see the dwarves taking a side at all. At any rate, not until the outcome is certain. Both groups have too much to lose if they pick the wrong side, and are (generally) too politically astute to make that mistake.

I tend to think that the most crucial group in the conflict is the Seekers. The initial assumption is that they'd support the templars, but I'm not so sure. They've always had a somewhat contentious relationship with the Order, for two reasons. First, they investigate the templars, and the Seekers' presence represents the failure of the Order to carry out its duties and to police itself. Second, the Seekers represent a more moderate, more enlightened, and less zealous form of Andrastianism. Consider that one of the most trusted and (presumably) highest ranking Seekers is Leliana, whose personal beliefs border on heresy to the strictly dogmatic. What's more, it's built into their title and the task: seek the truth. Not dogmatic truth, but literal truth; DA2 wouldn't have happened if Cassandra were only interested in the former.

Divine Justinia clearly felt that the mages' concerns and freedoms were at least worth considering. Otherwise the Templar Order wouldn't have had to break with the Chantry to fight the mages. If she decides the templars are more trouble than they're worth, and turns the Seekers loose on them, I believe that would tip the scales in the mages' favor.

[IanPolaris]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Divine Justinia clearly felt that the mages' concerns and freedoms were at least worth considering. Otherwise the Templar Order wouldn't have had to break with the Chantry to fight the mages. If she decides the templars are more trouble than they're worth, and turns the Seekers loose on them, I believe that would tip the scales in the mages' favor.

You don't know that.  Divine Justinia may yet be as anti-mage as she ever way.  She may have figured, however, that the Chantry needed more oversight over the Templars given what happened in Kirkwall.  That could easily explain the same thing, I think.

-Polaris

[ChaplainTappman]

IanPolaris wrote...

You don't know that.  Divine Justinia may yet be as anti-mage as she ever way.  She may have figured, however, that the Chantry needed more oversight over the Templars given what happened in Kirkwall.  That could easily explain the same thing, I think.

-Polaris

It's possible, I'll admit that. But I think it requires some mental gymnastics. She wanted more oversight over the Order, so the mages were to go unpunished? To me, it's more likely that she recognized some of the mages' greivances as legitimate. But we'll never know, really, unless they tell us in DA3.

[Mike3207]

I don't think oversight is a possibility now in any case. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. The mages are going to want full civil rights, and the templars will continue to see mage rebellions unless they address the issue or wipe out the mages.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's part of the Ages article, where the scholars wonder if the Arlathan
elves taught Tevinter how to use blood magic instead of the Tevinter
lore that states it was Dumat. Merrill also eludes to the Arlathan elves
knowing blood magic as part of her justification for using it.

Thanks yeah I had it in the back of my mind but had no idea which codex it was in lol
Something I began to wonder a while back was if perhaps Archon Thalsian actually was an Arlathan elf that betrayed his kind, would be cool imo. In fact i began to suspect perhaps the elves had a large influence on the imperium and within it, Since in DAII it is discovered that elves can become Magisters with fenris's sister being offered the title to betray her brother. Since Magic = Power in Tevinter and the elves know a great deal of magic and seem quite skilled at it its a possible theory.
I even began to think Magister Parlathan was an elf... Though thats mainly because of his name being so similar to Arlathan. Maybe the humans got their magical abilities from breeding with elves and didn't have magic to begin with.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't believe in "dark magic." Magic is magic; it can be used for good
or bad. Also, spirits try to kill Hawke. It's clearly not how things
are supposed to work out normally, as Merrill addressed.

Its a dangerous practice however and the mages should place limits on their abilities, The arlathan elves kept pushing the boundries it seems and being reckless placing no limits on their abilities like the Imperium. The power of magic is seemingly limitless and "with great power comes great responsibility" =P They should be responsible with it.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Extreme and irrational? The elves attacked Red Crossing. Was the attack
provoked by the templars being sent into the Dales because the
missionaries were turned away, as the Dalish Warden codex suggests? If
so, is the Orlesian version biased against the elves, trying to paint
them as villains? All I know is that Orlais has a history of conquest,
starting with its inception, and the Chantry (which was created by the
first Orlesian Emperor, Drakon I) has supported their conquest, as we
saw with the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.

Yes they do have a history of conquest, not saying its not their fault its quite possible they caused the whole thing and its possible its all Orlais fault.  But if the atrocities they commited at red crossing are true then the Elves reaction is still going to far, War is war and all.. But to butcher innocents is unnecessary and to extreme. The dales going to war with Orlais could be completely justified but what they did to the people of red crossing if it is true wasn't at all justified.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Orlais and the Chantry are intertwined. The Chantry's seat of power is
based in Orlais, and the Chantry of Andraste was created by the first
Orlesian Emperor. The Dalish also claimed that the war started because
templars were sent into the Dales when the elves refused to convert and
kicked out the human missionaries, according to the codex with the
Dalish Warden.

Yes they are to intertwined which is why fault is hard to place because they are always supporting each other and what not. But the chantry even so, cant afford to be reckless with their actions within Orlais due to their dependency on the monarchy. Without their support they are nothing besides a few templar soldiers. They need to maintain relations with Orlais just like they do with the rest of thedas otherwise the divine will end up like the current Dali Lama, forced into exile

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 30 août 2011 - 03:18 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Mike Smith wrote...

I don't think oversight is a possibility now in any case. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. The mages are going to want full civil rights, and the templars will continue to see mage rebellions unless they address the issue or wipe out the mages.

What will probably happen is that a mage tyrant will come to power, intending to keep the mages separate from religion and government, and become as dictatorial as the templars, except they will be free of Chantry oversight. Basically the same government, different leaders.

[Augustei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I doubt the Eluvians lead to the Black City. Now, perhaps the Tevinters
used some ancient spells that have long since been forgotten to make
them do that, but even that's something I doubt.

As for the
attack on Red Crossing, I don't even know what to think of it. It may
not have even happened. But I do know the Chantry does abhor the elven
pantheon and spread rumors about the Dalish doing human
sacrifices (which a Dalish elf can point out to Pol isn't true).

Val
Royeaux isn't that far away from the Dales. In fact, it's one of the
closest major cities to the Dales that's in Orlesian territory.

Red crossing mighten have happened your right, Missionaries of the chantry and templars heading to the dales to convert the elves may not have happened either. Either could be lies, The elves lost alot of their history during the fall of the dales -  What little they know is passed on from primarily word of mouth which is not an effective way to maintain history so what that Dalish elf said to pol I dont think even he can be sure about it either way.. Although I also believe it is most likely a lie but still we cannot be certain.

As for Val Royeaux's proximity to Halamshiral and the dales, On the map the road is broken through the waking sea... idk what that means but I always assumed you hve to go through the heartlands to get to Val Royeaux from the dales.. Maybe not though, Still unless the elves are ****** poor millitary strategists they would have had to take and hold the western cities before moving on Orlais's capital. They would have at least had to take Lydes ... Perhaps even Verchiel.

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Divine Justinia clearly felt that the mages' concerns and freedoms were at least worth considering. Otherwise the Templar Order wouldn't have had to break with the Chantry to fight the mages. If she decides the templars are more trouble than they're worth, and turns the Seekers loose on them, I believe that would tip the scales in the mages' favor.

You don't know that.  Divine Justinia may yet be as anti-mage as she ever way.  She may have figured, however, that the Chantry needed more oversight over the Templars given what happened in Kirkwall.  That could easily explain the same thing, I think.

-Polaris

At least we can confirm one thing about Divine Justina V..... Shes an idiot lol..
Well more Leliana i guess, "hmm these mages and nobles and many templars all seem to be complaing about the Knight-Commander.. Templars defecting from her ranks, Mages rebelling and opposing her, Nobles complaining as she takes control of the city.. Oh well lets leave that situation untouched and just tell the useless old grand cleric to get out of the city... Besides, everyone complaining about the Knight-Commander? It must be the mages fault"

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 30 août 2011 - 03:51 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

At least we can confirm one thing about Divine Justina V..... Shes an idiot lol..

Heh. True, but that's not exactly a 'man bites dog" story.....

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

I kind of hope the mages get stomped into the ground.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

I kind of hope the mages get stomped into the ground.

Before or after the Qunari stomp the rest of Thedas into the ground because of lack of magic?

-Polaris

[CrimsonZephyr]

Zanallen wrote...

I kind of hope the mages get stomped into the ground.

Why's that?

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I kind of hope the mages get stomped into the ground.

Before or after the Qunari stomp the rest of Thedas into the ground because of lack of magic?

-Polaris

We'd still have Tevinter, they've tag-teamed with the White Divine in some cases already.